The Gate

Can a thought, I, own a body?

No that doesn't check out.

"get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking?"

you can try it with various activities throughout the day also. See if there is actually a self controlling these actions or if all of it is just happening.

Walking just happens. Deciding which fruits to buy at the store just happens. Some thinking might be involved but that just happens too.
Everything that has happened today so far just occurred without any additional input.

Again, great looking!

I'm going to give you a few exercises to do... please tell me where you feel any stickiness or confusion in any of this.

------------------------------------------
What is happening in this moment? With your five senses, what do you experience? Sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, even thoughts. Just list what there is going on, don’t draw conclusions.

------------------------------------------
Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought “I hear that.” Now just pay attention to how sound happens. Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing, or is it just happening?

-------------------------------------------
As you go about your day today and move around, see if you can find that there is a self moving things around.
Look for this I.
As you talk, walk, drive, eat, type, ..anything..check it out.
Is there a self living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at whats true for you.
In all that you are doing today, just keep looking at this. keep the focus on this.
Keep looking to see if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

What is happening in this moment? With your five senses, what do you experience? Sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, even thoughts. Just list what there is going on, don’t draw conclusions.

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought “I hear that.” Now just pay attention to how sound happens. Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing, or is it just happening?

All the senses come into focus whenever they do. It is not controlled or able to be controlled. What is seen is just what is seen. Sometimes different things are noticed. Sometimes smelling happens, sometimes it is not apparent that it is happening.

Thoughts themselves are a little less clear. I don't see any thinker of thoughts. It is simply not there.
But there are many thoughts taking ownership of thoughts. I am mad at this, or I like that.

As you go about your day today and move around, see if you can find that there is a self moving things around.
Look for this I.
As you talk, walk, drive, eat, type, ..anything..check it out.
Is there a self living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at whats true for you.
In all that you are doing today, just keep looking at this. keep the focus on this.
Keep looking to see if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

An interesting thing is, for example, tying my shoes. Most of the time it is a very automatic process. But even if it is slowed down and the laces are carefully tied in a very mindful way, it is still not being controlled. It appears to just be more mindful. I don't decide to be more mindful about typing my shoes, it just happens.

Thoughts are definitely real. Thoughts about thoughts are real. There is nothing behind the thoughts about thoughts, just more thoughts about thoughts about thoughts.
But this is not always clear. It is pretty clear that the senses are not controlled and that movement is not controlled but thoughts themselves still "appear" to be controlled much of the time.

I want to say "I am very happy about the progress being made"
It still feels like "I" am happy about the progress.

Hey Andrew,
Just letting you know I'll write a reply later to your most recent post.

Was really busy yesterday.

-Cody

Thank you very much in advance!

Thanks for your patience Andrew. Really great looking again.

But there are many thoughts taking ownership of thoughts. I am mad at this, or I like that.

Right there is no thinker of thoughts. What is this "I" who takes ownership of thoughts besides another thought? Check this out.

We don't need to get rid of these thoughts that take ownership. Simply just look if they have any reality besides a thought.

thoughts themselves still "appear" to be controlled much of the time.

Where is this controller of thoughts? Can thought be stopped from arising or does it just happen like everything else.

Just like we did with the body. Can a thought/word, I, think?

We don't need to get rid of these thoughts that take ownership. Simply just look if they have any reality besides a thought.

That helped. I stopped looking at the contents of the thought and looked beyond it and there was nothing.

I believe it clicked yesterday. Thoughts still happen like before but they are mostly easily looked through.

Hard to say if this is the "can't be unseen" moment but it appears to be.

That's awesome Andrew

At this point we have a set of questions we ask to check this out even further.

Here are the questions we ask... we only ask these when you have confirmed for yourself
that yes, you have seen through the illusion of self.
Let's go ahead with them... if there's anything is left to address, it will come up from your answers.

Take your time with these... there's no rush. Give each your full attention.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate self that I can perceive.
Before there was a belief of this.
Now the belief has been dropped but the habit of having a separate self is still present.
Maybe with time the habit will lessen as I thoughts are continuously seen through. Or maybe not.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Something happens, the body moves, sound is heard, something is seen, thinking happens.
Then the mind labels all of it. The labeling itself is believed to be the thing. For example someone says something to me and the mind labels that as being negative. It is then believed that the mind is separate from the hearing.
So its not that a sound was perceived. It is that "I" heard the sound.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The mind is a little quieter. All of the sudden a space between thoughts is visible. The mind is less apt to go off the tracks labeling things because the smallest look through the thoughts and they are seen to not be attached to anything.
There is a repeated looking through that happens at times. Like an I thought comes up, lingers for a moment or more and then is seen through. And then a moment later the process repeats.
But from about noon on Friday when this was seen to the present moment I have been more relaxed. Several thing have been said to me that I would have taken personally. Now I can look through the mind labeling.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

You said

We don't need to get rid of these thoughts that take ownership. Simply just look if they have any reality besides a thought.

I stopped looking at the contents of the thought and looked beyond it and there was nothing.
Before I was looking at a thought like "I'm hungry" and then asking "who is it that is hungry?" I think I was missing the point that it doesn't matter who the thought said was hungry. Because its just a thought.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Stuff happens. This body does things. The mind thinks. Is what it does good, holy, satisfactory, evil or whatever? That's not important to getting this. I am not responsible for anything. A concept cannot be responsible for actions. Whatever biological circumstances and conditioning there is will lead to things happening.
Today I decided to cook french toast. Thinking happened and was probably influenced by what was in my pantry and what I knew how to cook. Then once the deciding happened the mind added a little label "I think I'll make French toast."
To communicate this easily I say I decided to cook French toast.

6) Anything to add?

Yep. Immense gratitude to you and everything that has shown me so much. Thank you!

Hey Andrew,

Thanks for your answers! Some other guides had a couple questions for you.

1) When you say

the habit of having a separate self is still present

is there some thing that has this habit? How does the habit show up in experience?

2)

"There is no separate self that I can perceive."

What I is perceiving here? Is it separate from what it is perceiving? Or is there only perceiving?

is there some thing that has this habit? How does the habit show up in experience?

There is nothing that has it or owns it.
The word is just a concept that was used to state that the I thoughts are still very much present.
They aren't seen as part of a self any more but they still exist.
An interesting question is whether the I thoughts will diminish or not but either way the content of the thoughts is not real.

"There is no separate self that I can perceive."

What I is perceiving here? Is it separate from what it is perceiving? Or is there only perceiving?

One of the stumbling blocks was not getting how to communicate without sayings things like "I want a cookie" or "I don't see it."
Part of the realization was that you can still communicate "I want a cookie" you just understand that the sentence is a pointer to the truth. It implies a desire for a thing commonly referred to as a cookie.

So a more accurate statement would be "A separate self is not perceived."

Thanks Andrew! I have run your response by the other guides and they all confirm! Congratulations! You will be blue on the forum soon and a little more of the website will be opened up to you.

Check out this: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=696
There are some links and info to other sites associated with LU.

Life still goes on.
If there's any more questions about anything, please ask.
I will leave this thread open for awhile if you have any further questions
or if you want to make any more comments.
It will be moved to the archived section so look for it there.

You will also be added to our facebook aftercare groups soon as well.

Its been a pleasure guiding you!!