The Gate

Dear Daisy,

My mind comes right in and says….. But I can see that these are all just thoughts.

What is the ‘thing’ that has a mind?
How the mind is actually experienced?
What is the ‘I’ that can see that “these are all just thoughts”?

I don't know if this is the right way to describe it, but it's not a sensation of the body and something else...it's just one sensation that doesn't even include the knowledge of the body.

Yes, this is a very good observation.

I know that this exercise is supposed to be pointing something out to me about the 'I'...but I'm not sure what it is. Is it that the 'I' still seems to exist when there is no sensing of the body, so how could the 'I' be the body? or am I missing the point?

“I know that this exercise…” – What is this ‘I’ that knows things?
“Or am I missing the point” – Where is this ‘I’ that could miss the point?
What is this ‘I’ that wants to know the answer, wants to figure this out?

The exercise is purely about the body and seeing how mental labels are attached to the pure experience.

Let's investigate on control a bit more.
Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?
What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?
How the decision is made?

Love, Vivien

Hi Vivien,

What is the ‘thing’ that has a mind?
How the mind is actually experienced?
What is the ‘I’ that can see that “these are all just thoughts”?

I don't know what would have a mind. I cannot find a container for the mind. The mind is experienced as a flow of thoughts...not actually as a mind. I would say that the 'I' that can see is just a sense of awareness...but it doesn't feel like the awareness is separate from the thought...it feels like it's all just one happening...thought happening.

“I know that this exercise…” – What is this ‘I’ that knows things?
“Or am I missing the point” – Where is this ‘I’ that could miss the point?
What is this ‘I’ that wants to know the answer, wants to figure this out?

This 'I' that knows is actually just a thought saying 'I know'...very interesting. Again, 'am I missing the point' is just another thought playing out. Just like the 'I' that wants to know. Everything just seems like a succession of thoughts and sensations. The thought that keeps replaying every time there is this realization (or thought) is 'yes, but thoughts happen from different perspectives to different awarenesses...' This too is just a thought. It feels like some weird play of thoughts.

Let's investigate on control a bit more.
Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?
What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?
How the decision is made?

Interesting..the arm kept lifting even in the absence of thought...or so it seemed, and then out of nowhere scratched the nose...no recognizable thought or doer. No controlling 'I' can be found...then a thought arrives, 'Well, whether there's a thought or not, you're doing it'...but from where did this thought come...cannot find an 'I' doing the thought. Cannot find an 'I' choosing which arm to raise...as a matter of fact, it wasn't even considered which arm until this question was asked. Doesn't seem to be a decider...just movement happening.

I was at a dinner last night and suddenly started watching things from the perspective of no doing...can't find a doer or thinker that switched the perspective...and then suddenly back to the usual perspective.


Love,
Daisy

Dear Daisy,

The mind is experienced as a flow of thoughts...not actually as a mind.

With which of the 5 senses it “the mind experienced as a flow of thoughts”?
Can this be experienced at all? Or just another thought suggest this?
Can “the mind is experienced as a flow of thoughts” – just be another thought believed?

Let’s examine what is happening here in the actual experience.

• (1) There is an arising thought being noticed
  (2) AFTER another thought is arising with the content: “the mind is experienced as a flow of thoughts”. However, this thought is not being noticed as an arising thought, but being lost in the content happens (= believed).

Can you see this?

Thoughts always try to interpret and assign meaning to everything.

I would say that the 'I' that can see is just a sense of awareness...but it doesn't feel like the awareness is separate from the thought...it feels like it's all just one happening...thought happening.

Yes, this is just one happening, thought happening. When this is seen, the thought is being noticed and not being lost in its content (= not believed).

So, can “the ‘I’ that can see is just a sense of awareness” – be just the content of another thought?
Can awareness be sensed at all, or awareness or the ‘sense of awareness’ are just mental labels (thoughts) attached to the experience?

This 'I' that knows is actually just a thought saying 'I know'...very interesting. Again, 'am I missing the point' is just another thought playing out. Just like the 'I' that wants to know. Everything just seems like a succession of thoughts and sensations. The thought that keeps replaying every time there is this realization (or thought) is 'yes, but thoughts happen from different perspectives to different awarenesses...' This too is just a thought. It feels like some weird play of thoughts.

Good observations.

Cannot find an 'I' choosing which arm to raise...as a matter of fact, it wasn't even considered which arm until this question was asked.

Good LOOKing.

Doesn't seem to be a decider...just movement

It “doesn’t SEEM to be a decider” or there isn’t a decider?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Vivien

Hi Vivien,

With which of the 5 senses it “the mind experienced as a flow of thoughts”?
Can this be experienced at all? Or just another thought suggest this?
Can “the mind is experienced as a flow of thoughts” – just be another thought believed?

I cannot sense a mind with the 5 senses. Just a thought...then the next. Yes, I see that the thought of the mind is just that, a thought. So tricky.

(1) There is an arising thought being noticed
(2) AFTER another thought is arising with the content: “the mind is experienced as a flow of thoughts”. However, this thought is not being noticed as an arising thought, but being lost in the content happens (= believed).

Yes! What a great way to put that! I love the distinction between noticing thought and being lost in content...very clear!

So, can “the ‘I’ that can see is just a sense of awareness” – be just the content of another thought?
Can awareness be sensed at all, or awareness or the ‘sense of awareness’ are just mental labels (thoughts) attached to the experience?

Yes...awareness is not sensed with the 5 senses...it is a concept, a thought. So basically, life is thought, thought, sensation, thought....

It “doesn’t SEEM to be a decider” or there isn’t a decider?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

With the 5 senses, a chooser/decider/doer cannot be found. There is just what is happening. So, I cannot find an entity that is responsible for any of it. If there is no doer, that holds true for 'others'...since there would be no others. So weird to think that investigating just started...it has felt for so long that there has been an 'I' who wanted to know the truth. Now, it appears that life is just playing a game with itself. But why? I guess there isn't an answer. If there is just what is, then there really is no cause and effect...just 'isness'.

No confusion...however, even though there is much more clarity, there still remains thoughts and getting lost in content which creates a sense of an 'I'. Perhaps as you said, because these are conditioned thoughts, it will take time for them to fall away. Since there is no doer/believer/one responsible...it's just a matter of what happens. Correct?

Love,
Daisy

Dear Daisy,

No confusion...however, even though there is much more clarity, there still remains thoughts and getting lost in content which creates a sense of an 'I'. Perhaps as you said, because these are conditioned thoughts, it will take time for them to fall away. Since there is no doer/believer/one responsible...it's just a matter of what happens. Correct?

Yes, identification with the I-thought is the result of a lifelong conditioning.

However, does the I-thought or the identification with the I-thought has to go away, or is it enough to see that the ‘I’ is just a thought?

But can identification be found in the actual experience?
What is conditioning in the actual experience?
Can be that ‘identification’ are ‘conditioning’ are just mental labels attached to the experience?

As a next step, there are further six questions to ask as part of this guiding process. The response is then shared with other guides. They may or may not have further questions.

Once it is confirmed by other guides that seeing through the illusion of the self has happened, our conversation in this thread will come to an end, however you won’t be left alone. There is a whole community of others on FB, who have also seen through the ‘self’. Actually, there are several groups to join.

So, has it been clearly seen that there has never been a self that could control or govern life or anything?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Are you ready for the six questions?

Love, Vivien

Hi Vivien,

However, does the I-thought or the identification with the I-thought has to go away, or is it enough to see that the ‘I’ is just a thought?

But can identification be found in the actual experience?
What is conditioning in the actual experience?
Can be that ‘identification’ are ‘conditioning’ are just mental labels attached to the experience?

From all of the previous reading/studying, there was an expectation of some 'big/permanent' change once the realization occurred. I know this too is just a thought. This is the thought that comes in after the thought 'So the 'I' is just a thought...that's the realization...that's it?' I realize that these are all just thoughts. And still somehow, this realization feels a little disappointing...which of course, is another thought. No, the 'I' thought does not have to go away. Just like the Santa Claus thought doesn't have to go away...once it is seen that there is no Santa, any thought about Santa is not believed...fun can even be had with Santa thoughts even though it is known not to be true. The hardest part is that 'I' want to say...'okay, I'll be vigilant. Every time a thought arrives, I'll notice that it is just a thought', but that too is getting lost in the content and believing in the 'I'. If there is no doer, noticing happens or it doesn't. It is seen that the belief in the 'I' is so sneaky...it even wants to come in as part of this process...'I'll be on the lookout for the 'I', 'I' will have a big/permanent change once the 'I' is gone,...There is no doer, nothing to be done. Even now, the thought 'Okay, 'I'll' just rest in this'...unbelievable!

No, identification can not be found in actual experience. It is just thought believed. Identification itself is just another thought. Conditioning in the actual experience is also another thought about thoughts and patterns. Anything that is a concept...that would require time or space...a cluster of thoughts is really just a thought happening in that instant that makes a cluster of thoughts seem to be a thing. Yes, identification and conditioning are mental labels which are really just thoughts.

So, has it been clearly seen that there has never been a self that could control or govern life or anything?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Yes, it is clearly seen that there has never been a self that could control or govern life or anything. There is no 'me' that started this investigation...investigating just happened...there is no 'me' doing anything. I am ready for the six questions.

Love,
Daisy

Dear Daisy,

Here are the six questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Vivien

Hi Vivien,

I'm giving these questions a lot of thought. I didn't want you to think I wasn't responding. I just need a little more time.

Love,
Daisy

Dear Daisy,

Thank you for letting me. But you don’t have to think a lot about it, just write what comes up first.
I’m looking forward to your reply.

Love, Vivien

Hi Vivien,

This is where I am stuck. I know that I cannot find an 'I' in this body. However, the experience of pain is perceived when something happens to this body and not other bodies. And the experience of pain appears to be perceived elsewhere (not here) when something happens to bodies other than this one. If physical pain is only felt when something happens to this body, yet pain appears to be perceived elsewhere...isn't there more than one experiencer?

Love,
Daisy

Dear Daisy,

Yes, this is a totally valid question and I get what you mean, however this goes well beyond our investigation here. In LU we go as far as seeing through the illusion of the self. However, this is just the first step… and your question is well beyond this step.

So what I suggest to do is answering the 6 questions, then I’ll show them to other guides. When they confirmed that seeing through the self has happened, you will be invited to several FB groups. You could benefit a lot from participating in those groups. This and similar questions are discussed there (along many others).

Love, Vivien

Dear Daisy,

We can investigate a bit more if you like.

I know that I cannot find an 'I' in this body.

Can an ‘I’ be found anywhere?
Is there an ‘I’ in any shape or form?

Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Love, Vivien

Hi Vivien,

I'm sorry it took so long to reply. I understand what you are saying about the scope of LU, so here are my answers to the 6 questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no evidence through direct experience of a 'self', 'me', 'I' anywhere or any time.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is just a thought that appears to overlay direct experience. For example, direct experience right now is hands typing. However, a thought arises 'I am typing' which superimposes an 'I' on the experience. But the 'I' cannot be sensed through the 5 senses. It is just a thought arising that is believed.

From the perspective of the separate self, it would seem that my parents taught me at an early age that I was separate, and I believed them. However, from the perspective of direct experience, there is no separate self, and therefore no 'others' or 'parents' so all that has happened are thoughts arising that either reinforce a sense of a separate self or question that sense. The origin of these thoughts is unknown...they just arise.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There seems to be much more clarity regarding reality and illusion since these discussions began. Interestingly, there seems to be slightly less fear thoughts (as related to the safety of the body) then before the discussions. Also dreams include thoughts about the seeing through of the self. There is a sense of openness and peace from this clarity.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The idea of noticing a thought as a thought versus getting lost in the content (i.e. believing the thought) was a pivotal distinction.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision, intention, free will, choice, and control are all concepts that can exist only in the presence of a separate self. With the realization of no separate self, it is seen that these concepts are just thoughts that can reinforce the sense of a separate self. For example, the right thumb just hit a the space bar on the keyboard. To say that a decision was made to do this would require an 'I' that would decide. Through direct sensing, however, no 'I' can be found...without a decision-maker, there can be no decision. Just body moving. With no separate self, there is no such thing as responsibility. The question 'What are you responsible for?' is an erroneous question, because it assumes a separate 'you'.

6) Anything to add?

This investigation has been extremely helpful. I look forward to more discussions (through the FB groups, perhaps) that will shed light on other questions that arise--such as the one mentioned in the previous e-mail. Gratitude is arising for this venue to reach clarity!

Love,
Daisy

Dear Daisy,

Thank you for answering the questions. A few questions have arisen to your reply.

There is no evidence through direct experience of a 'self', 'me', 'I' anywhere or any time.

There is no evidence of self or there no self?
Is there a self anywhere?

from the perspective of direct experience

You mentioned direct experience several times as a distinction from ‘something else’, so my question is:

What is that ‘something else’ that direct experience could be compared to?

From the perspective of the separate self…

Can an illusion have any perspective?

…and from the perspective of direct experience, there is no separate self

This suggest that although the ‘I’ cannot be found in the actual experience, it MIGHT exist from a different perspective, is this the case?

Is there REALLY any perspectives or only thoughts suggest this?

Through direct sensing, however, no 'I' can be found...

Can an ‘I’ be found in any way?
Can the ‘I’ be found other than a thought, anywhere, in any shape or form?

Love, Vivien

Dear Vivien,

Wow...I didn't realize how non-committal my language was!

There is no evidence of self or there no self?
Is there a self anywhere?

No, there is no self anywhere. There is only a thought of a self.

What is that ‘something else’ that direct experience could be compared to?

There is nothing other than direct experience. Even a thought is in our direct experience.

Can an illusion have any perspective?

No, an illusion cannot have a perspective. Any idea that a perspective comes from a non-existent separate self is just a thought arising.

This suggest that although the ‘I’ cannot be found in the actual experience, it MIGHT exist from a different perspective, is this the case?

Is there REALLY any perspectives or only thoughts suggest this?

No there are no other perspectives, only thoughts about possible other perspectives.

Can an ‘I’ be found in any way?
Can the ‘I’ be found other than a thought, anywhere, in any shape or form?

The 'I' is only found in thought. It does not exist anywhere in any shape or form.

Love,
Daisy