Being at ease ready steady go..am I there yet?

[Lucid]

So when you reported back on reading that there is no "you" in any form (never has been, never will be) you describe a conflict of some sort, but largely in terms of concepts and ideas.
What is the actual nature of this conflict as you see it arising, before the stories start up?
How does it manifest?
Are there specific sensations you are aware of?
Reflect back on the question again (what comes up), but this time I want you to report from Direct Experience.

thank you for your patience. i appreciate the clarity around what is Direct Experience, there has definitely been some appropriation by self of these concepts, i see that. so, to Beginners Mind...

There is no inner conflict without the stories.

when i ask the question now, 'how does it feel to know that there is no me never has been never will be', then
i feel a humorous, OH! and then
I only feel the ocean. a welling of being that is all at once and none of these; sadness, fear, freedom, delight, fullness, endlessness, laughter and tears just on the edge of pouring but not .. a slightly tremoring still point.
a sensation in the chest/ diaphragm of wanting to burst and then a quick dissipation into light, nothingness, mist.

the conflict comes/came later, when i allow thought and the re-reading and thinking "..in any form".. "but,but!..." and there came the stories and therefore conflict. Well, thats what happened yesterday. today i dont care. there is a feeling of resignation from the tangle of mind that stories create.

opening is happening. so grateful. thank you.

[Dava]

Great stuff.

You are starting to separate the sensations from the stories.
This is key.

A helpful way one can view Direct Experience is something like a pie that is sliced into 6 pieces.
There are 5 pieces for the senses (touch, taste, smell, sight, sound) and a piece for the mind, namely thoughts.
In this way, the six pieces of pie refer to the six "doors" through which experience arises.
There is no one piece of the pie that is better or more significant than the others, and if we could just allow it all to arise moment by moment as it is, and experience each bit of pie directly, then all would be well.
What tends to happen though, is that that the mind (thoughts) tends to commandeer the whole pie, so that when a sense arising happens, it jumps in and says "I did that".
We're asked to take our awareness to our foot, and instead of directly experiencing the foot as a mysterious myriad of sensations, we visualise a foot shaped thing, and thoughts say "this is the foot".

Another analogy in this sense is thoughts acting as a kind of narrator or commentator to Direct Experience.
It is as if by constantly chattering away about what is happening, a degree of control seems maintained, and it is within this sense of control, this "keeping it all together" that the sense of self lurks. In fact this is the sense of self at work, talking over everyone else with a loud voice and sense of importance.
What a party pooper.

So tell me, when you say "I", what does that refer to in Direct Experience?
Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?"

[Lucid]

So tell me, when you say "I", what does that refer to in Direct Experience?
Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?"

thank you, once again for great clarifying descriptions of "I" and its dominating tendencies.

When i say i what it refers to in Direct Experience is this particular physical form & set of stories within the commonly agreed referents
in Direct experience if i were to say i to myself it refers to various sensations or thoughts that move thru the bodymind
i am hungry/ tired = this body is having sensations of hunger/ tired
i am sad, frustrated = there are feelings of sadness moving thru, or stories that create frustration (realizing as i write that frustration doesnt seem to arise as a pure emotion, it is usually connected to a story of how something 'should' be or not)
i am going to do...= life force/ thoughts moving the body to certain action
there is no I that is just one thing - me - or definitive, there are only thoughts and energies, feelings, impulses, consciousness
"I" has only an ephemeral quality. it is not one thing, or anything of substance, it doesnt hold up under inspection at all. it is a pattern of energy, a movement, a thought, it gets seemingly solidified when attached to story, construct via belief, conditioning
In Direct Experience i is non-existent, it is Open Space

[Dava]

When i say i what it refers to in Direct Experience is this particular physical form & set of stories within the commonly agreed referents in Direct experience if i were to say i to myself it refers to various sensations or thoughts that move thru the bodymind.

For the purposes of this investigation, we are not agreeing to the bodymind as a commonly agreed referent.

We need to really boil things down, down, down.

Can you find a bodymind in Direct Experience?

i am hungry/ tired = this body is having sensations of hunger/ tired
i am sad, frustrated = there are feelings of sadness moving thru, or stories that create frustration (realizing as i write that frustration doesnt seem to arise as a pure emotion, it is usually connected to a story of how something 'should' be or not)

Is it really the case that the body has the sensations and feelings you refer to?
To help you answer this question, go to a particular set of sensations that are arising now.
What do you find in Direct Experience?

You spotted that feelings/emotions (lets call them feelings for the sake of clarity) do not arise in their pure form (such as sadness, frustration) but as something with a story attached.
What is it that arises that a story is attached to?

i am going to do...= life force/ thoughts moving the body to certain action

We will investigate actions more thoroughly as we move on, but just for starters, I would ask you,
do you Experience Directly something called a life force that is responsible for moving the body?
Do you Experience Directly thoughts which are responsible for moving the body?

Remember that assumptions have no place in this investigation.

You're doing great, keeping looking.

Dave

[Lucid]

greetings, Dave,
wow. ok. maybe i am still getting clear on what Direct Experience means. Yes, as there are flowers and trees, there is this body; mass, matter, warm, alive, ever-changing, with a brain that is throughout this mass. this brain/heart/mind (an electrical system) receives information that moves through it; thoughts, feelings, sensations...
i dont think the body 'has' these things but they do move through it. i do know that this physical form 'has' needs in order to survive/thrive. also, the physical form sure seems to 'hold' certain thoughts/ feelings/ memories within specific areas and shapes (postures) of the body. these i have had direct?/ felt experience with and with moving from being stuck back into flow thru.. and therefore disassociating with the stories that once held pain / sickness/ dis-ease in the body.
noticing arising sensations as connected to stories helps (also with physical movement) to move the energy back into flow, the universe and out of being trapped by i/ me/ my stories
these observations are from what i would call direct experience
no?

What is it that arises that a story is attached to?

sometimes what arises is pure feeling - a wave of energy that cannot be described (like the laugh/cry energy of yesterday), sometimes it feels like it arises as a specific feeling already, but i guess that by the time we put a name on it, it already has some level of story attached to it.

do you Experience Directly something called a life force that is responsible for moving the body?
Do you Experience Directly thoughts which are responsible for moving the body?

Yes, life force that moves the body is breath, heartbeat, impulse that moves the limbs even involuntarily, etc..
and thoughts can cause one to move the body but i am not sure that they are 'responsible' for moving the body.. this point is confusing. yes, i guess thoughts cause impulse that moves the body. thats an assumption.
no, i do not experience directly that thoughts move the body.

thank you for your encouragement
in appreciation,
lucid

[Dava]

i dont think the body 'has' these things but they do move through it.

Something to consider.

Could it be that the sensations "moving through" a so called body, make up that which we refer to as "the body"?
Sensations which arise and get pieced together as a perception of "body".

Similarly, could it be that thoughts "moving through" a so called mind, make up that which we refer to as "the mind"?
Thoughts which arise and get pieced together as a perception of "mind".

Could it be that there are just sensations and thoughts arising, with no agent (bodymind) acting as some kind of central processing unit?

No need to give me a straight yes or no answer at this point, but keep this question alive as we investigate our senses.

sometimes what arises is pure feeling - a wave of energy that cannot be described (like the laugh/cry energy of yesterday), sometimes it feels like it arises as a specific feeling already, but i guess that by the time we put a name on it, it already has some level of story attached to it.

Yes, spot on. It might feel as if something arises as a specific feeling already, but in reality, what arises is nothing but a sensation, to which a story attaches in the blink of an eye, so as to seem as if we are having "pure feelings".
This is easy enough to investigate, because upon the arising of an apparent feeling, you can take your attention to directly to the root sensation and see it for what it is, a sensation in the body. Of course the story attached to that sensation wants to narrate the scene (thoughts taking over the pie again), and in this way an unpleasant sensation becomes the feeling "I am sad" or a pleasant sensation becomes the feeling "I feel joyful".
This is not to deny sadness or joyfulness or any other feeling, but to demonstrate what lies at there root when we look in Direct Experience.

Do you see this?

[Dava]

I've included a follow up post here because I would like to set the scene for investigating experience a little deeper.
Also, I will be away from the computer for about 48 hours with only an i-phone for correspondence, so I would like to leave you with a few practical exercises which will bring a sharper focus onto what we mean by Direct Experience.

These are designed to give a clear sense of the distinction between Direct Experience and secondary experience as mediated through thoughts.

So, let's start with seeing.

Take of an object in your house that you are familiar with.
It can be anything really, a piece of fruit or a vegetable, your computer, whatever, you just need to know what it looks like.
Now think about this object, so that you have what you think is a reasonably clear picture of what it looks like in reality.
When you have done this, look at the actual object.
What do you notice?

Repeat this with other objects.


Moving onto hearing.

I want you to imagine a piece of music that you are familiar with (and have access to).
Something that you can easily evoke in your "minds ear".
Listen to how you think the music sounds.
Now I want you to play that piece of music and actually listen to it.
What do you notice?

You can repeat this with other pieces of music.


Continue this experiment by exploring thoughts of touching, tasting and smelling compared to the actual experience of touching tasting and smelling.

Report back to me with your conclusions.

Best wishes,
Dave

[Lucid]

greetings, Dave,
wow. ok. maybe i am still getting clear on what Direct Experience means. Yes, as there are flowers and trees, there is this body; mass, matter, warm, alive, ever-changing, with a brain that is throughout this mass. this brain/heart/mind (an electrical system) receives information that moves through it; thoughts, feelings, sensations...
i dont think the body 'has' these things but they do move through it. i do know that this physical form 'has' needs in order to survive/thrive. also, the physical form sure seems to 'hold' certain thoughts/ feelings/ memories within specific areas and shapes (postures) of the body. these i have had direct?/ felt experience with and with moving from being stuck back into flow thru.. and therefore disassociating with the stories that once held pain / sickness/ dis-ease in the body.
noticing arising sensations as connected to stories helps (also with physical movement) to move the energy back into flow, the universe and out of being trapped by i/ me/ my stories
these observations are from what i would call direct experience
no?

What is it that arises that a story is attached to?

sometimes what arises is pure feeling - a wave of energy that cannot be described (like the laugh/cry energy of yesterday), sometimes it feels like it arises as a specific feeling already, but i guess that by the time we put a name on it, it already has some level of story attached to it.

do you Experience Directly something called a life force that is responsible for moving the body?
Do you Experience Directly thoughts which are responsible for moving the body?

Yes, life force that moves the body is breath, heartbeat, impulse that moves the limbs even involuntarily, etc..
and thoughts can cause one to move the body but i am not sure that they are 'responsible' for moving the body.. this point is confusing. yes, i guess thoughts cause impulse that moves the body. thats an assumption.
no, i do not experience directly that thoughts move the body.

thank you for your encouragement
in appreciation,
lucid

[Lucid]

Hi there,
sorry if things got out of order here, i took these two days to write response, reflecting on stuff and then somehow when deleting a word (so i thought) deleted posts and ended up on needing to post response to one i already had, this one missing.. anyhow,, HERE IS the response to your last two posts - i appreciated the weekend and depth of inquiry.

Could it be that the sensations "moving through" a so called body, make up that which we refer to as "the body"?
Sensations which arise and get pieced together as a perception of "body".

Similarly, could it be that thoughts "moving through" a so called mind, make up that which we refer to as "the mind"?
Thoughts which arise and get pieced together as a perception of "mind".

Could it be that there are just sensations and thoughts arising, with no agent (bodymind) acting as some kind of central processing unit?

YES! i see this. i can get with this concept, feel the truth of it.. mind still wants to know what about the other commonly perceived things such as trees - are all these other things thoughts in common? i can feel/understand what i might call "self" as an amalgamation of feelings/ sensation <body> and mind as thoughts arising, collective..
I am feeling the truth of Consciousness, Being as 6 senses including thought and thought wanting to claim them all and story them into 'realness'
getting out of the box now of what is "real" and into direct experience. It took some abstract thinking, allowing fresh perspective but i get it.

experiment by exploring thoughts of touching, tasting and smelling compared to the actual experience of touching tasting and smelling.

Report back to me with your conclusions.

spent the weekend with this experimentation so far, clear that imagination is all thought, storied -a far inferior second to Direct Experience which is ALIVE with fresh sensation, weightier weight, juicier taste, crisper sound.. visceral though ephemeral, transitory, much more multi faceted..in motion.

Awake to direct experience now.
in appreciation,
lucid
ps - when i have clear moments, as i do before thoughts arise, of just being with what is- in flow, no thoughts, awake to the fullness of everything now.. i am clear that there are no words to describe as they are all an abstraction of this reality. there is definitely an inner push pull with just going there and spending time deliberating with words what it all means, what is happening. this direct pointing is revealing to the mind, the silence is most revealing. i celebrate that clarity and seek its constancy.

[Dava]

Hi Lucid,

Glad to see you've been engaging with the experiments.

So, you noticed that objects perceived in thought are a far inferior second to Direct Experience.
I would take that a step further and say that they have nothing whatsoever to do with Direct Experience at all, though we so often manage to convince ourselves otherwise. As we will see, since it is within this realm that the illusion of the separate self appears to maintain itself, simply returning again and again to our Direct Experience, to what actually is rather than an idea, is all that needs to keep happening.

At this point, I wonder if the realm of thought is feeling a little neglected, sidelined as a nagging commentator or a conjurer of pale imitations of reality.

Let's give thought a little bit of attention in Direct Experience.

Become aware of this thought that you are having now.

Describe what you find when you take your awareness to "this thought" in Direct Experience?

[Lucid]

Dava
i hope your weekend was great.. thank you for your time and focus.

At this point, I wonder if the realm of thought is feeling a little neglected, sidelined as a nagging commentator or a conjurer of pale imitations of reality.

yes, i hear thought rebelling, feel it nagging and calling.. it wants to know about a lot of things, but this voice is less present, further away and can mostly be ignored as i stay focused on whats next rather than needing the security of 'knowing' by analyzing and questioning and deliberating and story-ing

Describe what you find when you take your awareness to "this thought" in Direct Experience?

when i take my awareness to any present/arising thought and sit with it a bit it is as in the experiments with sensation, whereas i can see/feel its 'deadness', like thinking a book is the experience, rather than the real living of experience. i can see where we get hung up on thoughts and have big conversations and arguments over thought rather than being with present experience, i can see how gratefully, i spend less and less time doing this and so do those immediately around me.
'this thought' is like a greeting card.
thats it.
i could build a structure or story with each one or i can appreciate and then discard it., welcoming instead the freshness of what comes next in direct experience.
so grateful.
lucid

[Dava]

Okay, look again, only closer this time.
We're not concerned about whether thoughts are good or bad or what purpose they do or do not serve.

What do you really see when you try to look at the thought that is happening now?

Can you find something called "a thought"?

Tell me what you see.

[Dava]

In addition;

Can you find a place from which thought arises?

Can you find some thing or some place called "mind"?
If so,
Where is it located?
What shape is it?
What size is it?
Does it have a colour?

Answer from Direct Experience, nothing less will do.

Best wishes,
Dave

[Lucid]

What do you really see when you try to look at the thought that is happening now?

Can you find something called "a thought"?
there is nothing
Tell me what you see.

As i try to look at each thought, from direct experience, truly, they slip away. there is nothing to look at from direct experience...just the welling of next arising

Can you find a place from which thought arises?
i cannot find a place from which these things arise, simply it is like a coalescing of ...? i dont know what, but almost like i feel it before it is there, then it is there and then i can feel either the clinging and story as i try to examine or the dissolution of the thought back into a spaciousness where there is the next movement/ becoming sense or just nothingness
Can you find some thing or some place called "mind"?
there is no central place of mind although sometimes it feels like there is as thought can feel to arise with sensation in a particular area
If so,
Where is it located?
What shape is it?
What size is it?
Does it have a colour?

amorphous, un-pinnable, without size, scope, color...

[Dava]

Good observations Lucid, I can see you're really starting to narrow the focus.

there is no central place of mind although sometimes it feels like there is as thought can feel to arise with sensation in a particular area

Yes, indeed, sometimes it can feel like there is a central place called mind.
Remembering that for the purposes of this investigation, feelings are simply sensations with a story attached (in this case the story of a mind that is located somewhere).

Following this part of the investigation to its logical conclusion.

Can you find a thinker of thoughts in Direct Experience?