HI I'm looking for a guide preferably from Triratna

[Mad biker]

OK just arrive in your seat there Sangharaja.
Settle yourself in all nice and comfy.
I want to ask you to just take six breaths in a kindly way. Notice those arriving and departing.
Turn your attention to the fact of you sitting in that seat in front of your computer.
Can you feel a devision or any separation between your body and the chair? Can you feel a border a boundary a line where the body ends and the chair begins?
What do you ACTUALLY feel?
Just do this now.
Don't tell me thoughts about this exercise, just tell me what in fact happens when you do this exercise.
Mb
PS Do you get regular aeroplanes overhead where you live? (This is a completely separate question for later work)

[DaveP123]

PS Do you get regular aeroplanes overhead where you live? (This is a completely separate question for later work)

Ha yes we live under the flight path of a small local airport (just had a huge airshow over the weekend)
mostly light aircraft
Sangharaja

[DaveP123]

initially Yes a sense of me and the chair under me.

Can you feel a border a boundary a line where the body ends and the chair begins?

No to the second question the sensation of chair is the body.
The sensations of chair feel like me.
The very wooly line of chair/body sensation is inside the body e.g. where there is a space.
no can’t find a separation between me and chair.

Sangharaja

[Mad biker]

No to the second question the sensation of chair is the body.
The sensations of chair feel like me.
The very wooly line of chair/body sensation is inside the body e.g. where there is a space.
no can’t find a separation between me and chair.

Great observation there.

I just want to give a bit of expansion to 'Direct Experience' because Direct Experience is so central to our forthcoming exchanges here. I will ask you to report back from Direct Experience all the time from now on:

The most important catalyst for triggering Awakening to no-self is to investigate our Direct Experience. Direct Experience is what is noticed, here and now.
We can skilfully divide d.E., for the purposes of investigation, in to 3 main aspects:

1) thought

2) sensations
seeing
hearing
smelling
tasting
feeling [tactile + kinesthetic)

3) an unmistakable sense of Aliveness
(presence, being)

The illusion of separation is maintained by a stream of self referencing thoughts that are based on past conditioning. The most common reference point is a thought-created center referred to as "I" / "me" / "self". There is no such center, and those self-labels refer only to other thoughts, or to some aspect of Experience.

By referring to d.E., one is able to deconstruct any assumptions of separation or self, and see that there is just an Experience. There may be thoughts about Experience that conceptually divide certain aspects of Experience into a "me" and other aspects into "the outside world", yet those thoughts are also just a part of Experience, and as such there is ONLY Experience.

There is an assumption that there is an experience-er that experiences. This is propagated by a belief, as expressed by a thought such as "I experience". We investigate this in d.E. by looking for this "I". Is there a separate "I", or is there just an Experience that thought conceptually divides as such: "I" + "what is experienced"?

There is an assumption that there is a perceive-er that perceives. This is propagated by a belief, as expressed by a thought such as "I am the perceiver". We investigate this in d.E. by looking for this perceiver. We can see that there is no such thing as a perceiver, just a perception and thought dividing it in to an "I" + "body" + "perception through the senses".

A sound is heard, then there is a thought "I hear a sound". We can investigate and see that there is no hearer of sounds, just sound. If there is something felt and assumed to be the hearer, or self, is it anything more than some other sensations? or that sense of Aliveness? or another thought?

"I feel my body against the chair" a thought says. So, we investigate d.E. and see that there are sensations that are habitually labelled "body" and other sensations we refer to as "feeling of chair against body". When we investigate where this "I" is that claims these sensations, it cannot be found, as there is either another self-referencing thought, some sensations or another aspect of Experience.

We can pick up an object, and look at it. We might say "I am looking at the object". We then test this conclusion to see if it correlates with d.E., and what we find is that there is a sensation of seeing, and maybe some sensations that we usually label 'head' or 'eyes', or even other feeling-sensations labelled "body". A thought may arise with the conclusion that these are inherently separate, and that one is "self" and the other is "what is observed". When we test this out we see that there is never an "I" looking, never a watcher, never a seer. There is only seeing, only feeling, only Experiencing. We can say that it is simply Experience experiencing itself.

We look deeply in to Experience, and see that the assumptions of separation, self, "I", perceive-er or an experience-er are just references to Experience. There is never an actual separate object, just the perception of such, and thoughts labeling it. We deconstruct all these assumptions of there being a watcher, or a looker, or a hearer, and find that there is only Experience, never an actual separate self.

Is it possible there is just Experience, with no separate experience-er?

[DaveP123]

Yes in theory there is no separate experiencer
Yet when I thought “I am experiencing”, that is just another thought hoodwinking me into thinking that it is me doing/having the experience.

Then when I thought that, I got a very strong stroppy thought “But! it is me” referring back to this bunch of sensations.
Ha when I had the thought “But it is me “ and challenged it with “where is the me or I” there was a wave of sensation rippling through the body
WO there is no I or me experiencing anywhere and I felt a strange spacious expansive.
I then had a New thought “but I am controlling this” i am in charge
and again when I looked for the I and me I sensed a powerful energy and then couldnt find it yet again.

A few hours later,
I have been feeling less anxious about life in general.
When I look for the doer or experiencer i'm just getting the thoughts and no actual sense of a self doing.
So far so good
There is a doubting voice that seems to think this experience of no solid I isn't real Im just making it up
so I am just treating that as another thought and seeing if I can find the doubting self
Ha Ha doesn't like it. no there didn't seemed to be a solid self doubting just the doubting thought.

Gosh I hope this is understandable. Its been wonderful get this far.

[Mad biker]

Yes in theory there is no separate experiencer

I don't want theory mate I want Direct Experience!

Yet when I thought “I am experiencing”, that is just another thought hoodwinking me into thinking that it is me doing/having the experience.

Then when I thought that, I got a very strong stroppy thought “But! it is me” referring back to this bunch of sensations.
Ha when I had the thought “But it is me “ and challenged it with “where is the me or I” there was a wave of sensation rippling through the body
WO there is no I or me experiencing anywhere and I felt a strange spacious expansive.
I then had a New thought “but I am controlling this” i am in charge
and again when I looked for the I and me I sensed a powerful energy and then couldnt find it yet again.

Yay! First class observation from Direct Experience. Smashing stuff!

(Is 'WO' an abbreviation? If so, then tell me what it means. If it is just a typo then just ignore this)

I have been feeling less anxious about life in general.
When I look for the doer or experiencer i'm just getting the thoughts and no actual sense of a self doing.
So far so good
There is a doubting voice that seems to think this experience of no solid I isn't real Im just making it up
so I am just treating that as another thought and seeing if I can find the doubting self
Ha Ha doesn't like it. no there didn't seemed to be a solid self doubting just the doubting thought.

Gosh I hope this is understandable.

Yep! That is all looking nice.
The anxiety will re-visit you by the way but it is not important.
Mb

[Mad biker]

Just arrive there on your chair with six or so kindly breaths giving yourself room to leave aside what you were doing before opening this LU forum. I want to ask you to do this exercise for 20 minutes:

Just noticing the features of your local soundscape as they come and go, ebb and flow. Noticing how passing aeroplanes just pass, without getting stuck at full volume Really notice when the sound of a plane is starting to emerge, when it is at its fullness of robust health and how it soon weakens fades and dies from the skies, 'til the next one.

Just sitting there you will regularly hear planes arriving and departing. I want to ask you to allow all the other elements of the local soundscape to just fade in significance as you give yourself to the sounds of these planes; the very gradual arisal and departure of their engine sounds The relative silence of any aero engines in between them, is one of the best bits! However, happily for the purposes of this practice a new plane comes along with its song!


Is there an actual aero-engine or is there instead just sound?
Is there a 'hearer'? Is there an actual experiencer of the sound that you could actually put your finger on, or is there just sound itself?

Just listen. Just 'Look' (by 'look' I mean just perceive)

If the planes are too far apart you could use a car song in between planes!
Mb

[DaveP123]

Ha sorry got a bit carried away,
WO! is like WOW! but a bit more measured, less intoxicated .

[Mad biker]

Love it mate!
That is just fine to use!

[DaveP123]

As I was looking for the sound I had the “thought label” plane
and then the label of plane went and left with just the sound.
at some point the label engine and propellor sound came up which on looking I was just left with various tones and volume of sound

At a point of closer looking and I asked the question as to where there was an I or me there was just hearing and sound no I to do the hearing.
It felt spacious and to some extent I had a sense of silence around the sound,

[Mad biker]

At a point of closer looking and I asked the question as to where there was an I or me there was just hearing and sound no I to do the hearing.

Mmm! lovely (but I needed to take a few reads at that one so I want better punctuation amigo!)

It felt spacious and to some extent I had a sense of silence around the sound,

"...too some extent..."? sounds like a move away from Direct Experience here into journalistic reportage!

Well did you have a sense of silence around the sound or not? Sounds to me like you did, am I right?

Direct Experience is not a state or anything resembling a state. It's simply what you experience directly at any given moment, as opposed to what you're thinking about your experience.


Here's a simple example:


If I ask, "Are your keys in your bag?" you might respond:


(A) I remember putting them there last night.

(B) Albert told me he put them there after he borrowed them.

(C) I think they must be.

(D) Let me just see (looking in bag). Yes! Here they are!


Of those responses, A, B, and C are reports about your INDIRECT experience. They're various thoughts ABOUT the question. Only D is a report about your DIRECT experience. You looked and you saw the keys. That's direct.



Looking good anyway.

Just use the plane sitting when you feel like it.

Lets look at seeing:

Just take half a dozen or so nice friendly breaths.

Choose a point on the wall or out the window or the top edge of your monitor screen right now.

Just give yourself to that chosen point of soft focus in a gentle way forcing nothing, just looking as though it did not matter one way or the other where you looked but you just happened to be looking here and holding this point in view. It might be the corner of a painting or mandala it does not matter what you choose to use.

Cezanne said it would cause a world revolution if people just chose to REALLY look at a carrot fully. So just look at your chosen thing there in your Direct Experience. Just look, nothing mystical.

In Direct Experience is there a seer, is there a process of seeing, or is there just that which is seen?
Mb

[DaveP123]

..too some extent..."? sounds like a move away from Direct Experience here into journalistic reportage!

Ok Mb noted

Cezanne said it would cause a world revolution if people just chose to REALLY look at a carrot fully

What a different world it would be.

There was the the corner (the seen) , the sensations of the body and an awareness of seeing
They were all in the same experience which felt expensive and gentle.
Lovely
Sangaharaja

[Mad biker]

Nice!

and an awareness of seeing

Was there something having an awareness of seeing?
Just look now in Direct Experience, was there an entity having that awareness or was there just awareness?

Just do the exercise again now.

You are looking good by the way, and I am off abroad for nine days tomorrow where I will almost certainly have limited connectivity, after the first few days so can we look at having a few exchanges in the next 48 hours Sangharaja?

I will be ready to receive from you today at 9.50am 11.10am 12.35 15.00 and all evening from 17.15 No, don't try to make all of those for Christ's sake! But if we could do two, or three more exchanges some time today that would be nice. If not, no worries, you are going to be just fine anyway.
Mb

Mb

[DaveP123]

I'm at work today
So can do around 12.35
And 5.15
And will be using my iPhone
So maybe a bit clunky
I am happy to have ago though
Sangharaja

[DaveP123]

There was just awareness