Seen through the illusion but...

[Job]

Thank you for your patience Fred.

I've looked some more on the apparent decisions and it looks like the decisions are not personal.
Example: Today, when I move in "the space" of a person in the store to take something off the shelf she starts walking.
So is the case with my own "decisions" they look more like reactions on what is needed here and now.

Scan your most immediate experience. What is the 'body'? What does this convenient label point to? Are 'you' the body? Is the body doing the experiencing or is it experienced?

The body is a name for all the different processes going on.
This label point to the feelings, taste, sounds and looks of the body in this moment.
No, the body is not doing the experiencing.
There is experiencing TRUE the body so the body is experienced.

Bye :-)
Job

[Freddi]

Hi Job

I've looked some more on the apparent decisions and it looks like the decisions are not personal. So is the case with my own "decisions" they look more like reactions on what is needed here and now.

I’d like to press you further on this question of decision and free will, because it is a big part of the illusion of separation and it is important we have 100 % clarity.
You have seen that apparent decisions are reactions to what is happening all around, like the environment. When you come to selecting clothes to wear tomorrow morning, can you look into how the clothes are chosen? What are the ‘environmental’ factors taken into consideration? Maybe there are some preferences? Maybe some trends? Can you see a choice point? Can you see a chooser? Describe what you find and let’s look into this in detail.

Thanks!

Fred

[Job]

Hello Fred,

When you come to selecting clothes to wear tomorrow morning, can you look into how the clothes are chosen? What are the ‘environmental’ factors taken into consideration? Maybe there are some preferences? Maybe some trends? Can you see a choice point? Can you see a chooser? Describe what you find and let’s look into this in detail.

When the clothes are chosen there is a thought of an I who want's to "look good". Who want to fit in with the standards, the standards of that 'I". That apparent standards are gathered from all sides: The country of birth, friends, work, seen advertising, standard of living and so on.

When I think to see the choice point, there is only a thought of an I choosing and the choice is already made.
The same with the chooser, there can be thinking about a chooser. But nowhere is a real chooser to find. Only in the thought 'I...."

Thank you, Job

[Freddi]

Thanks Job

Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of the separate self, unequivocally?

Do you have any questions, issues or sticking points you would like to raise at this point?

What I suggest is this. If the answer to the first question above is 'yes', I would like to ask you our usual summing-up questions. When we are both happy with your answers, I will invite other guides to take a peek, to make sure we have covered all areas. Then you will be invited to some support LU groups, where 'people' who have seen through the illusion share experiences, ask questions and get help. This can be very useful, because seeing through the illusion of self is only a beginning. There is much investigating to be done into recurrent, habitual thinking.

What do you say, Job?

Warm wishes

Fred

[Job]

To answer this question with a big "yes" feels like a lie. I don't know.

At some moments there is total clarity, nothing is missing, al is perfect the way it is and on other moments there is still struggle with what is on that moment.

Yes, I've seen true the illusion but it feels very unstable and impermanent.

What to so with this? Is this looking to a permanent state of bliss what holding me back?

[Freddi]

Hi Job

Thank you for your honesty. It is really appreciated.

Let’s take a look at expectations. Unpack it all, are ‘you’ looking for permanent bliss? Are you looking for the end of struggle? What should liberation be like?

Perhaps it is that very search that is the struggle, perhaps looking for the end of suffering is the suffering itself?

I would like you to read a list of expectations we have compiled. Spend some time with them, contemplate them, let them percolate. Let me know if any or some of them resonate.

Here is the link:
http://liberationunleashed.com/faq/
Then click on ‘Liberation Unleashed is not …’

Sometimes seeing expectations for what they are is all it takes to drop them.

Warm wishes

Fred

[Job]

Hi Fred,

Let’s take a look at expectations. Unpack it all, are ‘you’ looking for permanent bliss? Are you looking for the end of struggle? What should liberation be like?

Liberation should be like:
- A continu state of bliss where all what is happening is perfectly OK
- Not believing the thoughts arising
- All what is seen is totally new and fresh
- There are no expectations of the future
- The “old me” is completely gone, like a new birth

Perhaps it is that very search that is the struggle, perhaps looking for the end of suffering is the suffering itself?

Yes, that's the mind who want to figure it all out, creates non existing problems and asks questions.

I would like you to read a list of expectations we have compiled. Spend some time with them, contemplate them, let them percolate. Let me know if any or some of them resonate.

Thank you for the link Fred.
I've written them all down and will look some more into them today and tomorrow.

This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
&
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.

No, its about seeing true the illusion of a separate you. Then there is nobody to be happy. Just happiness or sadness or whatever is arising. Now I see how pointless it is to look for eternal bliss.

Thank you! Job

[Freddi]

Thanks Job
Expectations only reinforce the idea that there is a 'you' that can 'get' something or somewhere ...
I'll wait to hear from you when you have had the time to look at all the expectations listed.
Warm wishes
Fred

[Job]

Yes, without a me "my" list with expectations makes no sense. Without a me there is no problem, nothing to be done and nothing to change.

Did look again at the FAQ list with expectations but no believes on there

I think its clear now.

[Freddi]

Thanks Job!

Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of the separate self, unequivocally?

Do you have any questions or sticking points you would like to raise at this stage or shall we go to summing-up questions?

Fred

[Job]

Yes!

We can go on to the summing-up questions. Thanks.

Job

[Freddi]

Great! Here are the questions. Take your time with them. Contemplate them. As usual, don’t look in your thoughts for the answers, scan your immediate experience, what is alive, true, here and now. Be as detailed as you like and don’t forget examples for question 5.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

I look forward to your answers
Fred

[Job]

Hi Fred, here are the answers :-)

1) No, in reality there is no such thing as an separate entity at all. This illusionary identity can only exist in thought. In this moment there are thoughts, feelings and sensations in the body but nothing real what can be called "self", "me" or "I". For example right now there can be thoughts and feelings about a lion here in the room but when "I" look there is no real lion to find. The same is the case with the "self", "me", "I". And no it has never existed.

2) The illusion of a separate self is a believe that there is a separate doer and experiencer. That there is an "I" who thinks, eats, walks, have emotions, have a body. That "I" does not exist in reality only in thought. There is also nobody to own thoughts, emotions and the body, they just are. So there is no "I" who does the thinking, there are just thoughts, there is no "I" who is happy, there is just happiness and there is no "I" who walks, there is just walking. It starts at the age of two or tree, before that there is no believe in a separate self.

3) All feels the same. What changed is that before the conversation there was a tension to get somewhere and to keep something. Looks like that's is gone now. There is nobody to get or keep anything.

4) To see that "my" expectations make no sense without an "I".

5) All these things happen only in thought, they are not real and there is nobody to do or to have them.

Today "I" was walking and there was an option to go left or right. Out of nothing a thought pops up to go right. Nowhere was an "I" to see who is doing that decision, making that choice.

There can be a thought about a choice but that thought is not personal and there is nobody doing, creating or owing that thought.

The thoughts are formed true all things happened in live: for example the place where "I" was born and the people "I" have met. This all helped to form the thoughts about who "I" am and helped to create the story of me. Nothing personal in there and no way to control this.

The same is the case with free will. A thought comes up "I want to move to another city". To say that’s there is free will to make that choice, that is a lie because the “I” is an illusion and that “I’ didn’t create that thought in the first place.

6) Thank you very much! There are feelings of gratefulness for what you all are doing on this site!

With gratitude, Job

[Freddi]

Thanks for your detailed answers, Job, I will now invite other guides to take a peek into our conversation, to make sure we've mopped up all doubts and covered all areas. They may or may not have further questions.
I'll be in touch shortly!
Thanks!
Fred

[Freddi]

Hi again Job
Three other guides have read our thread, and have no other questions, they have confirmed that you have 'seen'.
I will send you a private message about what comes next.
I would like to thank you for the opportunity to accompany you in this exploration. It was a privilege and a pleasure.
Warm wishes,
Fred