cosmic joke

[Xain]

right on xain, the standard view applies, i believe i am a person, and this person has many expectations, that's the habitual and chronic experience, i have had many experiences temporarily suspending and challenging this view but that's not relevant to how it is

Ok - Good.
It is also important to realise that, despite the experiences and perhaps an idea that the standard view might not be 100% true, the belief still persists.
This is the belief that we will look into together.

In the past i used to chase my own tail inquiring 'who am i?' and look at what's looking and it always felt like an infinite regression or impossible self-reference loop, the sense of me becomes very subtle when chased, not so much a bodymind but more like space or a background or what is looking or aware or simply present etc but still something 'separate' or other, whether gross or subtle

Ok.
I love the phrase 'impossible self-reference loop' - This is a very good description.
'Impossible' though? I don't think so. Let's see if we can break out of it :-)

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is real.
When I say 'real', I simply mean 'something that can be found'.
If you were to try to investigate the Yeti, 'Bigfoot' to prove it is real, you would have to see it, feel it, smell it etc - Or use some other sense to determine that it truly exists.
An idea appearing in the mind - a 'thought' saying 'Yes, it really exists' wouldn't really cut it - And wouldn't prove it really does exist. It would just be an idea that it does.
We can go further into depth with this if needed.

Ok - Let's take the belief 'I am this body'.
Most times, this belief is held because the senses appear to operate from the body and detect the 'outside' world.

Let's take 'seeing' as a very simple first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen.
Now, what can you find that is seeing them? Examine your experience right now.
Can you locate, find, track-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

Tell me what you find . . . what comes up?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

eeh ... no, nothing comes up, cannot locate or sense a thing that is seeing or typing these words

i can only imagine it or think about it, but then its just an idea and that does not qualify for the label 'real'

[Xain]

i can only imagine it or think about it, but then its just an idea and that does not qualify for the label 'real'

Sure.
If we try to 'find' something that is doing the seeing, we cannot.
The only thing that you may be able to find is ideas, thoughts about what is doing it.
'I see', 'Eyes see', 'Brain sees' etc - All these are ideas of what is happening, but they don't match the actual experience. There is just 'seeing'.

Check the other senses. Hearing - Is there an 'I' that you can locate that hears?
Smell . . . taste . . . the same - Is there an 'I' doing these senses?
Can you locate the 'thing' that is performing these functions? Or is there just 'smell' and 'taste'?

Touch/Feeling is a little more 'close to home'. Check it out.
Is there an 'I' that does 'feeling'?

Reach out and touch the table (or whatever) in front of you.
Can you find two parts to the experience? The table that is being touched, and the body/hand that is doing the feeling? Or is there just 'feeling'?

Does the body actively 'do' any of the senses?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

hearing smell taste: no I, no thing

touch feeling: no I

body & senses: one seamless experience

[Xain]

So what makes this body 'yours'?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

because 'I' control it? haha wrong answer i guess

it's rather a complex of bodily sensations that is felt and thought as 'my' body, due to habit and convention, also because of its perceived proximity, it is the unique reference point from where the senses appear to operate so we are thaught, the skin being the conventional barrier between me and not me, but as a matter of fact body sensations arise as part of direct experience

[Xain]

because 'I' control it? haha wrong answer i guess

Well, I wouldn't say 'wrong' - It is certainly the standard 'conventional' view.
'I control this body.

So investigate this as we did above.
Do a little experiment.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire . . .
What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Don't go to thoughts - Examine the actual experience - Can a controlling 'I' be located?
Also . . . what is this 'I' that is choosing that particular arm?
Again, don't go to thoughts - Examine the actual experience - Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

no 'i', just experience, just choosing, just thinking

[eknath]

all body sensations are part of experience

and that experience includes everything else

[eknath]

so simple

but the mind still doubts and loudly protests, but even that is just thinking

[Xain]

no 'i', just experience, just choosing, just thinking.

Cool.
I'll just pick up on one thought though - 'Choosing'.
Is there actually a choice going on - Or is it 'just happening'?

This is a very subtle thing. Thought comes up with all sorts of idea and suggestions as to what is happening here.
There isn't anything inherently 'bad' about these thoughts - But I want you to see that that is all that they are - Just thoughts.

Can you find an 'I' that chooses here right now? Or do you have to go to thoughts in order for any sort of answer.

but the mind still doubts and loudly protests, but even that is just thinking

Yes. Good observation.
The mind 'protests' as such, because it appears to be against everything that is believed.
Mind says: If there isn't an 'I' in control, then who or what IS in control?
Is there a 'thing', a separate self, an object, a person that is actively doing it? Or is 'thought' coming up with the answers?

Look at this statement:
'This body is mine'

Is this true? What makes it true?
If the body that appears is 'yours' then who or what is the owner?
Is there one here? Can you find them?
Or is this just a thought appearing that is believed in?

A thought appears 'I am this body'.
Is this anything more than a thought appearing that is believed in? (Or not believed in)?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

'choosing': can I find an I that chooses?
this question is very puzzling and short circuits my computer, no answer appears or seems possible, only thinking and thoughts come up with comments and stories

is there a real choice or r things just happening? same thing, same answer

[Xain]

In order for a real choice to be made, there would have to be a real chooser wouldn't there?
What is choosing the arm in the experiment?
Thought says 'I am' - What is 'I'? Or is it just a thought?

Xain ♥

[eknath]

what is i? the one million dollar question

when i look i cant see or find or feel a solid I, it is certainly not an object, it is not seen, only an elusive sense of subjectivity, ungraspable, and so the idea that I is just a thought makes sense mentally

[eknath]

you also asked what makes this body 'mine', what owns it, and who or what is in control of the mind, same questions basically, it is only inner mental chatting or thoughts that come up with answers or rather comments because the mind has no real definitive answers only ideas