Requesting a guide please

[Freddi]

Hi Jim,

1)

The mind is just a label for what seems to be at first a physical sensation that becomes interpreted as a mental image

Interesting to read that you see the ‘mind’ as a physical sensation. Could you be more specific? What attributes does this physical sensation that you label ‘mind’? In which part of the 'body' is it felt?

2)

At those times I am liberated and ok with whatever happens. There is a steadiness in the space and I almost feel held.

Who or what is this ‘I’ that is liberated and feels held. Scan your direct experience and take a good look.
Where do you see this ‘I’ that would claim these things?

3)

The resistance is from still taking the pill of thought and falling asleep to what really is.

Would you say that ‘falling asleep to what really is’ is not part of WHAT IS? Does this event/happening take place outside of WHAT IS?
Indeed, does resistance to the mental process take place outside of WHAT IS?

4)

What is the trick for finally letting go of primacy of mental process and for the space to remain in the forefront? Keep looking and inquiring? That's a mental process.

No it is anything but a mental process. It is not a trick. It only takes one honest look, and this look takes place … now! Stop, come out of your mind stream and LOOK around you. The happening of the moment, the buzz and tingle of WHAT IS, THIS IS IT!
There is nothing else than what is happening in this moment, everything else is a mental projection.

5)

I know it, I see it, yet... what is missing?

Again, take a good look at what is given in direct experience. I'll turn that question around: Are you breathing? is your heart beating? Can you walk outside and smell the warm air, listen to the wind, the birds? Is there air to breathe? What is missing? Can you answer that question? Or is there just another thought that says ‘not this’, ‘this is too simple’, 'I need', 'I want' etc.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[jima54]

Fred,

Interesting to read that you see the ‘mind’ as a physical sensation. Could you be more specific? What attributes does this physical sensation that you label ‘mind’? In which part of the 'body' is it felt?

It is very subtle in some cases, not so subtle in others. It is also a chicken and the egg, not sure whether the sensation was first or, in the case of a subtle sensation, a subconscious thought triggered a sensation which in turn triggers another, and possibly, more conscious thought. Going to bed with indigestion might result in nightmares. A prefrontal lobotomy undoubtedly results in changed thought patterns. The body and thought are intertwined, I think that is common knowledge and it is my experience. In any case I responded to you earlier that mind is an aggregate of things, not a single thing. I said that I do not find "mind" per se as a thing that exists anywhere.

Who or what is this ‘I’ that is liberated and feels held. Scan your direct experience and take a good look.
Where do you see this ‘I’ that would claim these things?

I felt this had already been covered. My use of the term "I ( and "My" and "Me") is for the convenience of communication. "I" could say more accurately that there was a feeling of being held. That is what it was like, no I there, but why should years of communication habit change?

Would you say that ‘falling asleep to what really is’ is not part of WHAT IS? Does this event/happening take place outside of WHAT IS? Indeed, does resistance to the mental process take place outside of WHAT IS?

Good point. You are right and this is sinking in more and more.

It only takes one honest look, and this look takes place … now! Stop, come out of your mind stream and LOOK around you. The happening of the moment, the buzz and tingle of WHAT IS, THIS IS IT!

Yes, another call to get out of thought and see. This does happen but it isn't constant. Still stuck in the mind. My looking is lazy perhaps.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

It is very subtle in some cases, not so subtle in others. It is also a chicken and the egg, not sure whether the sensation was first or, in the case of a subtle sensation, a subconscious thought triggered a sensation which in turn triggers another, and possibly, more conscious thought.

You did not give me any specific sensation that you would label ‘mind’. I know you said it was an aggregate of things, but you also said it seemed to be a label for a physical sensation. That is what interests me. Can you describe that sensation as plainly as you can?
Or could it be just an imagined sensation?

Yes, another call to get out of thought and see. This does happen but it isn't constant. Still stuck in the mind.

Can you find any ‘thing’ that is constant? Looking in your direct experience, give me just one example of a constant ‘thing’, be it an object, or simply ‘looking’.
What happens in deep sleep? Does looking, experiencing continue?

Still stuck in the mind

Who or what is stuck in the mind? A Jim-idea? A Jim-thought? Is that true?? Can you get up, walk a few steps, go outside or to the fridge? Who is stuck? What is it like to be stuck in the mind?
Question all assumptions and thoughts, Jim. Don’t leave any stone unturned.

Thanks!

Fred

[Freddi]

One more thing …

Who or what is this ‘I’ that is liberated and feels held. Scan your direct experience and take a good look.
Where do you see this ‘I’ that would claim these things?
I felt this had already been covered. My use of the term "I ( and "My" and "Me") is for the convenience of communication. "I" could say more accurately that there was a feeling of being held.

What is being pointed to here is that, while it is useful to use ‘I’ in communicating statements such as ‘I am driving’, ‘I am singing’, comments like ‘I feel liberated’ and ‘I feel held’ fall apart when it is seen that there is no ‘I’ to be found in direct experience, hence no one to be liberated or not, no one to feel held etc …The entire proposition belongs to thought, fantasy. Do you see that?

Fred

[jima54]

I do see that. Awareness of these words when used has definitely increased and it is liberating knowing that they are empty but that they also have utility and it is still ok to use them. "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form". The I is empty but it's use also arises out of emptiness as a convenient label pointing to an aggregate system. That is how I see it. I don't see a lot of other choices in communication without making it awkward and unnecessarily cumbersome, at least for "me".

I'll respond to your earlier post. Especially like "What is it like to be stuck in the mind?"

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

The I is empty but it's use also arises out of emptiness as a convenient label pointing to an aggregate system.

Can you describe that 'aggregate system', in direct experience?

Thanks!

Fred

[jima54]

There is the body's movement and the feeling of the air and the temperature and the muscles. There are sensations that come and go; adrenaline, tension, love, fear. There are thoughts in varying levels of coherence and in many categories. There is the recently discovered "I" thought - a constant sense of identity/self that is in current decline. There is perception; vision, touch, sound, smell. There is more thought as a result of all the above or in advance of all of the above. There is a felt sense of presence that comes and goes. Awareness comes and goes. All of this is labeled the aggregate system "Jim".

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

You did not give me any specific sensation that you would label ‘mind’. I know you said it was an aggregate of things, but you also said it seemed to be a label for a physical sensation. That is what interests me. Can you describe that sensation as plainly as you can? Or could it be just an imagined sensation?

There are two basic types. One is a feeling like there are small electrical pulses in different parts of the body, particularly in the head, neck, shoulders, and chest. It is like a very low grade twitching or contracting in these places. I see a correlation between these little pulses and my thought stream. With this type it seems that the pulses and combined condition of the body state at a given time trigger the thoughts. I don't dwell on it and just take it for granted that this body does things on it's own and that thought is an interrelated part of the physical system.

Another type is like an adrenaline surge. Some are barely noticeable and occasionally they are stronger. They come suddenly and usually from the solar plexus or abdominal area. Then usually the subsequent thought is one of some kind of threat however minor or major. With this type it seems when looking back that there was some subconscious thought activity that triggers the sensation and then the sensation triggers more thoughts and more sensations. Again, I don't dwell on it so much anymore but it was interesting at first how body and thought are so co-mingled. Not so interesting now.

Of course, maybe all sensation is just my imagination. Hadn't really considered that possibility.

Can you find any ‘thing’ that is constant? Looking in your direct experience, give me just one example of a constant ‘thing’, be it an object, or simply ‘looking’.
What happens in deep sleep? Does looking, experiencing continue?

No things are constant in my experience any more. Not even presence, or watching, and certainly not objects. In deep sleep there isn't looking or experiencing, at least there is no memory of it. I'm not even sure if beingness is a constant occurring in deep sleep. That would be an assumption.

Who or what is stuck in the mind? A Jim-idea? A Jim-thought? Is that true?? Can you get up, walk a few steps, go outside or to the fridge? Who is stuck? What is it like to be stuck in the mind?
Question all assumptions and thoughts, Jim. Don’t leave any stone unturned.

Yes, these are my ideas about stuck, there really is no stuck. Stuck is a thought, not stuck is out of thought and in direct experience. In my experience stuck is a process of mental frustration, it clearly is a cluster f... of ideas resulting in physical tension. It is simple. But simple doesn't always equal easy. Abandoning mind for what is right now is simple but not easy for me. I am practicing "stop right now", your words are helping validate this. In the past during meditation and at other times there have been many moments of full stop, sometimes they were frightening, like looking at the void. I think there is a conditioned barrier built in around this. I am better equipped now than before to face this and see the emptiness for what it is; not a threat to existence but its source and container.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your honesty and your earnestness to look deeply into your direct experience.

1)

There are two basic types. One is a feeling like there are small electrical pulses in different parts of the body, particularly in the head, neck, shoulders, and chest. It is like a very low grade twitching or contracting in these places. I see a correlation between these little pulses and my thought stream.

So … electrical pulses in the head, neck, shoulders, twitching, contracting, an adrenaline surge … Do these amount to a ‘mind’? Or a ‘self’? Is ‘I’ any more than a convenient label for that feeling of aliveness that is so familiar, intimate?
Look in direct experience. Where is the correlation between these little pulses and your thought stream?
How does that correlation manifest itself? Is it a physical, tangible correlation, or is it another thought?

No things are constant in my experience any more. Not even presence, or watching, and certainly not objects. In deep sleep there isn't looking or experiencing, at least there is no memory of it. I'm not even sure if beingness is a constant occurring in deep sleep. That would be an assumption.

Thanks for this clarity. When we take an honest look in direct experience, we can find no ‘thing’ that is constant. No object, no concept like presence, beingness etc.
The moment we label them as ‘constant’ we have to rely on some mental projection, and call in memories. That is fantasy. The question is always: What is alive, here and now? And question all assumptions.

2)

Abandoning mind for what is right now is simple but not easy for me. I am practicing "stop right now", your words are helping validate this. In the past during meditation and at other times there have been many moments of full stop, sometimes they were frightening, like looking at the void. I think there is a conditioned barrier built in around this.

Who is asking you to abandon the mind?
Consider this and stay with it for a moment: Is the mind any more than the current thought?
Can this current thought be seen through as telling a story that is unreal?
Can this current thought, whichever it is, be embraced and welcomed as an expression of WHAT IS, just like a cloud or a headache?
I am not saying that the thought needs to be believed in or followed, just welcomed and not resisted.

3)

I am better equipped now than before to face this and see the emptiness for what it is; not a threat to existence but its source and container.

You have mentioned this ‘emptiness’ before and I would like to stay with this for a moment, as I feel this may be an acquired concept.
In direct experience, do you see, touch, feel, hear ‘emptiness’? Can you describe it?

Thanks!

Fred

[jima54]

Hello Fred,

Do these amount to a ‘mind’? Or a ‘self’? Is ‘I’ any more than a convenient label for that feeling of aliveness that is so familiar, intimate?
Look in direct experience. Where is the correlation between these little pulses and your thought stream?

The best word I can think of to describe how I see the body/thought process is entrainment. Sometimes I notice that there is a rhythm to the thought stream. It sometimes pulses along with my heartbeat or even the ticking sound of the clock on my office wall. All of the activity going on in the body has an effect although the correlation is only sometimes noticed. Input from the other senses will affect the tone of the thought stream as well. A white noise generator has a calming effect for example. Pain can stimulate thoughts in another direction.

My view is all of this activity combined is the process we label as mind. Then there is awareness. Mixing awareness into this mental process results is a felt sense of the various parts of the mental process being "Me". This is something I have come to realize in the past month. Awareness also arises out of combined circumstances, it comes and goes just like the constituents of the so called mental process. Awareness when mixed with other perceptions and sensations tends to result in a back reflection which seems like "this is me". It's not "Me" though. These are all arisings that come and go, including awareness. In here is where I think the deception of the "Me" is perpetuated. I used to think awareness was the end goal but don't see it that way any longer. Awareness needs to be seen as just another component. So naturally the question arises, what is beyond awareness?

Consider this and stay with it for a moment: Is the mind any more than the current thought?

The current thought is built on top of a lot of other processes though, so I would have to answer that there is more than the current thought in the whole mental process. But, having said that, if time is taken away as a consideration then I would agree that in direct moment to moment experience the current thought is all there really is to be examined. Thought can examine thought or create assumptions about what caused the current thought but in the end that is all there is in front of us right now, in terms of thought anyway.

I see the content of thought as mainly communication through the use of symbols. The symbols aren't real themselves but may or may not point to something that is relevant to current circumstances. Many times the symbolic dialog of thought does not point to anything relevant. I see it more and more as what it is, like a movie, and basically look to see if I'm positively inspired to take action on any piece of it. The bad, let it pass, don't take action unless of course there is imminent danger, but very little thought is usually involved in immediately threatening situations.

You have mentioned this ‘emptiness’ before and I would like to stay with this for a moment, as I feel this may be an acquired concept.
In direct experience, do you see, touch, feel, hear ‘emptiness’? Can you describe it?

Now, emptiness and space are interchangeable terms for me, I'm referencing the same thing with each. Now the sense is of an absence of all arising yet with a sense of potential or silent aliveness. Ultimately still and quiet yet alive. This isn't a constant in my experience at all, it too comes and goes, and is not threatening. In the past I would come to this and see it as a threat like an abyss that I was going to helplessly fall into and loose all sense of existence. I have had a few all stop moments in the past year or so where this view has occurred again but with less acuity. But, I would back away automatically and everything would start back into motion again. I am also now having more arising of the "space" mentioned above which is peaceful and leaves me with a whole feeling. Clearly there isn't anything to see or touch but it is felt although there isn't anything there.

I'll be traveling tomorrow, hopefully I will have an Internet connection late in the day.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

What is being pointed to here is what is happening right here and now. I ask you questions pointing you that way, inviting you simply to look away from thought content and into WHAT IS. Your answers suggest you are looking into your thoughts.

For question 1, ‘Look in direct experience. Where is the correlation between these little pulses and your thought stream?’, you talk about ‘sometimes’, ‘during the past months’, ‘many times’. That is thought content, story.
Direct experience handles only what is happening right in this moment, all else is mental speculation. A ‘correlation’ implies a link or some sort. I am simply asking if that link is any more than an idea.

For question 2, ‘Consider this and stay with it for a moment: Is the mind any more than the current thought?
You say ‘if time is taken away as consideration’, and that is precisely the point. Because time is a convenient way we have of organising memories, nothing more. I also did not ask you about the content of thought (your second paragraph), that is part of what is not happening.

For question 3, ‘In direct experience, do you see, touch, feel, hear ‘emptiness’? Can you describe it?’
Instead of looking into direct experience and describing what you see, you swap one concept (emptiness) for another one (space). You talk of ‘the sense of an absence of all arising yet with a sense of potential or silent aliveness’. Is this really direct experience, or is that content of thought? Can you describe an absence? In direct experience, what is ‘space’?
You also talk of it not being constant, of it coming and going. Again that is not looking in direct experience, that is comparison of memories. Realisation, liberation can never be to any concept, it can only ever be of this moment.

Could you go back to these three questions, really look into what is happening right now, not in memories, thoughts, acquired concepts, etc. and let me know what you find, as plainly as you can, in your own words and your own time.

Direct experience refers to bodily sensations, the five senses, it notices thoughts but does not engage with the content of them.

Thanks!

Fred

[jima54]

Fred,

Thank you for your comments. I know they point in the right direction. I am on a hectic schedule traveling today. I will get back on this tomorrow.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

No problem, Jim, thanks for letting me know.
I look forward to your post tomorrow.
Warm wishes
Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

1. After a very late night and getting up early:

Heart beating, eyes are heavy, head is heavy, thought stream is slow, bedroom is low light, shadows, colors and shapes, pressure on back. Thought passes through: "the correlation just happens, all the parts are interrelated and codependent, but there is no direct knowing of this, only assumption". Another thought passes through: "Everything is like this, there is no direct knowing of the co-dependence of arising because at any one time everything is as it is. Only with the time concept introduced does the notion of co-dependence arise."

Attention shifts to different senses. Pressure on backside then pressure on fingers typing, then whirring noise, pressure on bottom of feet, bright computer screen. Thoughts form automatically with a compulsion to tie it all together and try to explain. This is constant. Thought passes by: "Direct experience without explanation is liberating, it is a heavy burden to carry." Now in a different location the light is brighter the AC is louder and there is a hunger pang.

2. Thoughts arise and then recede. At any moment they are just there and I cannot say why, nor is there a need to know as long as the need to know thought doesn't arise. Mind would seem to be time based process as well based on cause and effect processes with the verb labeled as the noun "mind".

3. Emptiness/space are thought concepts. After a process of negating thoughts as not me, my need to know thought generates all kinds of stuff on what is behind all experience and I end up with a living emptiness idea that is physically translated and is palpable in a physical sense. Then there is a bodily sensation of relaxation and stillness and a residual but stable emptiness thought behind it. I experience the need to explain compulsion right now. That is all. Maybe it is true, but I don't know it. "It" appears to know what "It" is doing, there is, after all, a lot in the picture.

Thanks,
Jim
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

the correlation just happens, all the parts are interrelated and codependent, but there is no direct knowing of this, only assumption

Yes, when you check in your most intimate experience, you find that this ‘correlation is only an assumption, a mental joining of two apparent events as ‘cause’ and ‘effect’. In truth, we cannot say any more than they just appear in the happening of this moment.

Everything is like this, there is no direct knowing of the co-dependence of arising because at any one time everything is as it is. Only with the time concept introduced does the notion of co-dependence arise.

That is clarity, than you ;-)

1)

Thoughts arise and then recede. At any moment they are just there and I cannot say why, nor is there a need to know as long as the need to know thought doesn't arise. Mind would seem to be time based process as well based on cause and effect processes with the verb labeled as the noun "mind".

Who or what needs to know why thoughts arise? Isn't the need to know just another thought?
Can a thought need to know a thought?

2)

I end up with a living emptiness idea that is physically translated and is palpable in a physical sense.

I’m not sure what is meant here. How does an ‘emptiness idea get physically translated’? How is emptiness palpable in a physical sense? Can you describe it as plainly as you can? How does it manifest?

3)

"It" appears to know what "It" is doing, there is, after all, a lot in the picture

What ‘it’? Can you be more specific? What is ‘it’, in direct experience? Take a good look, and let me know if you can find ‘it’.

Thanks!

Fred