Requesting a Guide Please

[Armstrong]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there's no self now.

I'm inclined to say never, but the past doesn't exist. If I reflect on the question, "was there ever a self?" how could "I" know that? There's memories now where I'd interpret them as, "it seemed like there was a self, but it was just thoughts getting believed", but there's no way to know. Right now I felt the chair I'm sitting on - that's known. That past is gone.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Say there's a phone in front of me. There'll be the thought, "my phone is looking beat up and I should replace it" and "that phone is so beat up it makes me look bad" and then my housemate making noise and there's the thoughts, "he's being too loud. He always does that He isn't treating me decently." So there's a bunch of thoughts relating to I/me/mine. They aren't necessarily true. They tell a story where there's an "I" going through life, defined in relation to his property, likes, dislikes, other people, etc. If the story gets believes, there's a self. The story is biased negative -- something is often wrong, others aren't treating me right -- so when the story gets believed, emotions like fear, anger and sadness appear. It is a rough ride.

What is it like now? I'm noticing the thinking a lot. It reminds me of Neo in the matrix, but instead of dodging bullets, "I" dodge thoughts. Often the thoughts come and it seems a bit afterwards I noticed, "I just thought ..."

If I find my body getting tense or having bad feelings, I pay extra attention to the body and thoughts - I wake up more, and then they are more apparent and the bad feelings seem to go away.

E.g. irritated person gets rude with me and I catch myself getting angry. I noticed the thinking - along the lines of "he shouldn't do that to me" - and then I realize I'm caught up in thinking, at which point it seems to get better.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I'm not seeking as hard. It has been relaxing and there's been a lot less suffering.

I've even noticed myself thinking, "OK, what next?" and then I realized there's no next. There's nothing more to seek. Then I caught myself thinking, "what am I going to do with my life?" and I realized that's just another thought.

It has been very strange -my memory of the experience is waking up and noticing the self-pattern again and again.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was something like this: Sam Harris talked about Dzogchen and how it was different than mindfulness. I did some research. I watched videos from Jackson Peterson and he mentioned this site. I read chunks of the book - particularly the reports from longtime meditators. I made the first post. Not long after I really started noticing my thoughts. It seemed they were coming a lot faster than I'd ever noticed them, but still one at a time. I quickly noticed that paying attention to them as they came reduced my distress. I got bored. Then I realized that was just due to thinking "this is boring", etc.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision? They just happen. Sure, there's thoughts, feelings - a succession of them - until something gets decided. E.g. "McDonalds or Burger King?" There's a few thoughts and finally a "McDonalds" thought that gets acted on.

Intention? It seems like just a thought, and then attention changes. E.g. there's the thought, "move that object slowly across the desk" and then the hand grabs it and slowly moves it across the desk.

Free will? There's no self to will things. There's no free will. E.g. if you say, "pick a number from 1 to 10." The number 6 appears in my mind. 6 just happened.

Choice is like what I just wrote for free will.

I'm not so sure about control. I tried adjusting my chair to be a certain way. There was the seeing of the chair, a thought about how it ought to be, then action, then looking at where it was and some comparison against the goal. When it was at the goal there was the thought, "I did that really well" and a little thrill feeling. LOL


6) Anything to add?

Thanks for leading me through this. I'm probably going to pay more attention to daily tasks. The control experience seems quite complicated.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK you've definitely on message here. What normally happens now is we invite some other guides to look over the conversation and see if there's anything else we need to work on. But since there is still a bit of unclarity around control we may as well look at this now.

Here's a really simple exercise that helps you focus in on whether there is a controll-er or not -- have a go and let me know what comes up:

OK tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.

Looking at the fingers in the air, it’s not quite known when they will tap. In fact, the thought “tap now” can quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air.

See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no effect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.

Is it true that in direct experience there is no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap?

What causes the finger to tap? Anything?

[Armstrong]

The fingers either move or they don't. There's no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap.

If someone asked, "did you move those fingers?" I'd easily think (and then say), "yes, I moved the fingers". If you asked them I'd give you a different description.

Interestingly, I can see the intention thing with more clarity: Perhaps I think, "time to call the doctor and make an appointment." The hand either grabs or it doesn't. When the hand moves to grab it, maybe or maybe not there's thoughts like, "hold it this way, do this do that." If there's thoughts like that, maybe when I'm done there's the thought, "I did that well and a positive feeling." But if there's no thoughts while grabbing and moving, there's just action and no emotion. The hands move, but they don't feel like my hands moving. When I just saw those words appear on the screen, I saw my hands moving to type, as if by themselves.

Fascinating!

Thank you for your help.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Great. You've obviously developed the knack of looking at direct experience -- and what we find there isn't always what is expected! We have groups on the other side you can join and continue to explore this area. OK now I'll invite other guides to see if they have any questions, so please stay tuned.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK. No more questions from other guides. Please check your PM for a message on how to join groups. (This may take a day or so to come through).

[Armstrong]

Thanks again!