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[lizinprocess]

Hello Jonathan
Thank you for your attentiveness...just the simple reporting in here is affecting me deeply.

I have been sitting as you suggested, observing sensations - and letting the enquiring mind just rest. I am not finding it difficult to stop analysing - feeling how draining it can be and how it intrudes onto experience. Deliberately not bringing in psychology into what is happening.

Aware when sitting of the depth of space around objects, the layering of branches, reflection of light. At the same time sensations of heat/nerves/ tightening and relaxing in the body/breath rising and falling. Just being with that was enough. Is there a controller - no. Is there a manager - I don't really know.

Quote: Are 'you' this 'mind that recognises sound'? Look again. What is 'found'?

Sounds comes and goes - it vibrates in my body and across air waves - it is a phenomenon and I am part of it. It would happen without me.

I will continue with this sitting and opening out. I am a 'serious seeker' - always have been and I wont give up.

Tomorrow - I may find difficulty writing in - I will be out all day and not back until 11pm. But will check in soon.
Feeling very still....

Thank you Jonathan.
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

It is good that you have been looking at hearing.

Sounds comes and goes - it vibrates in my body and across air waves - it is a phenomenon and I am part of it. It would happen without me.

Do you find a 'Liz' in the body? Is there an 'I' in 'my body'?

You can try these sorts of investigations with the other senses, very much in the same way. Sometimes looking at the direct experience of one sense in particular seem to reveal more than another, so it is worth experimenting.

There is the old sultana exercise. 'Am I tasting a sultana'? (Or is tasting just happening?).

Seeing can be very interesting too. Do 'I see' or is there just the experience alone? What 'sees'? Look and notice.



Best wishes for today,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan - I replied late yesterday and it looks as though it didn't register - no record of it here. It did say successful post though!
I have to be away from the computer all day today - back around 11pm so may not get to post today. Am continuing with exercises and will post tomorrow.
Yes I am a serious seeker - have been all my life. I have been a practicing Buddhist for around 30 years. I don't give up!

Thank you Jonathan for your attentiveness,
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Thanks for your posts and for letting me know you would not post on Wednesday.

Sometimes when this forum generates a new page it can seem confusing at first. I expect by now you have discovered that our conversation is now running onto page 2?

Anyway, feel free to leave a new post as soon as you like and we can continue where we left off. Have you had time to experiment with DE?



Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan
I had an interesting sense of being yesterday whilst talking with a friend. A sense of just being with her - listening - just there. It felt intensely real. There wasn't an 'I' there. I am asking where is the 'I', is there a witness?

Another situation today where I felt intense irritation with someone. i asked where is the self here, is it being irritated, and the realisation came that it was just a pattern of responses - some adopted from someone else. These were just thoughts, there is no self to be irritated and the sensation of irritation just subsided. I know this intellectually but I don't 'know' it but something is shifting. It feels very delicate though. I don't want to lose this.

Best wishes, Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

Good observations.

Once this starts to be seen it can never be unseen. Thoughts may suggest otherwise but that's all they are, thoughts.

Do thoughts know thoughts? Can thoughts 'see' no self?

And yet no self is found.

Do you find that one of the stickiest points is the question of control? How to let go of control? How can you let go of a control that you do not have already? The assumprion of control spawns the idea that letting go must be the answer. But what about just noticing the effortlessness of all that appears? Isn't everything flowing freely, including thoughts of 'I need to control', 'I need to let go of control' and 'it's frightening to let go of control.


On another matter, do you ever feel that you are your body or 'in' your body?



Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Oh gosh! Some strong questions and they really struck me.

quote: 'what about just noticing the effortlessness of all that appears? ..'

Oh yes - I see that, the flow, never stopping, always there, effortless. My interfering, trying to control gives pain, like pushing a stick into a stream. the water splits but still flows on. This is something I can reflect on.

As for control - I am at a point now where I want to let go. For so long I have had this niggling feeling that I need to make a difference, do something 'good' but looking deeper, this is about bolstering a sense of self. If this self is delusion then the whole drive is ridiculous. I see all sorts of thoughts there - comparing my self with others, dividing actions into approved and disapproved actions. All this comes from others/society - there is nothing clean, nothing simple - all a construct based on nothing real. It doesn't mean anything any more.
But the control thing....need to come back to that one.

Quote: Do thoughts know thoughts? Can thoughts 'see' no self?

I don't know. I can observe thoughts passing through the mind - like a chain of associations. I can bring the mind to bear to solve a problem but often solutions can just come without me controlling things.
Writing poetry is a good one - where do the poems come from? I really don't know. They arise when I am open - I can't force a poem. Sometimes I am astounded by what appears on paper. Automatic writing can reveal wonders....

Quote: 'On another matter, do you ever feel that you are your body or 'in' your body?'

I can feel I am witnessing the body and sensations but then they are so close - I am not separate. The bodily sensations and how I feel/emotions are so entwined. All arises and falls in harmony. But this isn't always seen ~I am mostly witness 'in' the body.

I am really benefiting your 'pushes' Jonathan - please keep them coming.
With gratitude,
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

I wonder if you have discovered the 'quote' function yet? This can be useful for highlighting bits of text, which then appear with an orange background. This sometimes makes it easier to read and comprehend, To use this, click on 'full editor' at the bottom of the input window. Then you will notice above, a 'quote' function button. One you have copied a line into memory you can 'paste' this between the 'quote' marks. Voila!

My interfering, trying to control gives pain, like pushing a stick into a stream. the water splits but still flows on. This is something I can reflect on.

'My' interfering? This would imply that there is a 'real you' that could control events. What does Direct Experience tell you?
Is there a self anywhere to be found?

I see all sorts of thoughts there - comparing my self with others, dividing actions into approved and disapproved actions. All this comes from others/society - there is nothing clean, nothing simple - all a construct based on nothing real. It doesn't mean anything any more.

What sees all sorts of thoughts?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?

Thoughts appear and disappear. No denying that.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Writing poetry is a good one - where do the poems come from? I really don't know. They arise when I am open - I can't force a poem. Sometimes I am astounded by what appears on paper. Automatic writing can reveal wonders....

You mean, this seems to happen as if 'by magic'? Ha ha! A mystery then?

So, when this happens, where is the 'doer' of poetry writing?


Best wishes,


Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan
The quote function continues to mystify - can't see any 'full editor'. Tried to play with Quote buttons and deleted my text.

Thank you for your message.

Quote: My' interfering? This would imply that there is a 'real you' that could control events. What does Direct Experience tell you? Is there a self anywhere to be found?

I seem to hit some kind of block. Something intrudes onto events, applies values, judgements, choices. Though when I investigate those choices made they come from all sorts of sources. I am feeling a sense of wobbling/graspingness.
Feeling I don't understand.....what am I doing with Direct Experience - feel I am flaying around.

Quote: Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

No I can't prevent thoughts appearing, I can make a decision whether to follow a thought but then see the trappedness/delusion created by following a thought - or it can be released.
The thought 'I' cannot be controlled.

Quote: Where is the 'doer' of poetry writing?

There isn't a doer - I want to say there is an openning/releasing of self but anticipate you saying 'what does the releasing?' is there a releaser!'

Not giving up but feeling confused.
Liz

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan - sitting with confusion - returning to sensations. Sound is helpful. Sound just passes through. I don't create sound or do anything with it. Thoughts arise in relation to sound then go. There isn't an I that creates the thoughts.

The idea of 'I' is a bundle of habits. Aware of sensations of 'doing', imperatives as thoughts. They arise and fall.

This feels such an effort!
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Don't worry about the editor.


Perhaps I should give a little more description of Direct Experience?

The words "direct experience" are pointers, pointing you to THIS experience right now, whatever that experience is, INCLUDING any commentary that might be going on about it. INCLUDING EVERYTHING.

Direct seeing is beyond words and ideas.

Don't think, don't analyse, don't guess. LOOK into your experience and be totally honest.

If I said to you there was a Crocodile under your bed, the only way to find out if that was true or not is to look under there.
Maybe you could smell it or perhaps hear it's breathing.
Would you agree that in order to find this 'I', just like the crocodile, all we can do is to use 'experience', the senses available to us right now in order to find it?

- sitting with confusion - returning to sensations. Sound is helpful. Sound just passes through. I don't create sound or do anything with it. Thoughts arise in relation to sound then go. There isn't an I that creates the thoughts.

Great. This is good.

This feels such an effort!

Why is that? Let me know exactly why that is.

I seem to hit some kind of block. Something intrudes onto events, applies values, judgements, choices. Though when I investigate those choices made they come from all sorts of sources.

Do 'you' hit a 'block'? Or do thoughts come along that say 'I have hit a block...because...because...because..and..because...oh yes...and it's a real block by the way, one that needs to be worried about by me'?

Look at this sort of experience. Could it be that you start by being right here, right now, in DE in THE PRESENT, possibly just hearing, and then, somewhere along the line thoughts pop up? Examine those to see if they are about past and future events.

What are 'past' and 'future' other than thoughts about past and future?

Where is the 'doer' of poetry writing?

There isn't a doer - I want to say there is an opening/releasing of self but anticipate you saying 'what does the releasing?' is there a releaser!'

Actually Liz, I'm not going say that. Because something like that is occurring. I asked ''where is the doer' and you answered perfectly! There isn't one. Didn't you say that the poetry or automatic writing seems to come from nowhere?

That's poetry. Try now something that convention might label 'mundane'. Go and make a cup of tea. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

Did you put milk into your tea or not? Was there a moment of choice or did that happen automatically?

Did you 'make the cup of tea happen' or did it just happen. a bit like the poetry?


Best wishes,


Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Thank you for your persistence - and pushing.

I really connected with the crocodile image

[quote]Would you agree that in order to find this 'I', just like the crocodile, all we can do is to use 'experience', the senses available to us right now in order to find it?

The hunt is on for 'the self' - sitting this morning and following senses - aware of sounds, sights, physical sensations, thoughts, - all shifting, nothing fixed. There were habitual responses. Then there was the decision to get up - was this automatic? A sensation to move happened, washing up happened after thoughts arose whether to wash up or not.

I am struggling with the idea of not having control - decisions are made whether to do one thing or another. I have ethical choices - deciding skilful over unskilful actions.

But then - when going with flow, ethical choices will happen.....

Oh heck - this is the effort. I feel I am struggling with a lifetime's conditioning.

Quote: Do 'you' hit a 'block'? Or do thoughts come along that say 'I have hit a block...because...because...because..and..because...oh yes...and it's a real block by the way, one that needs to be worried about by me'?

Ok I get that - thoughts are thoughts are thoughts, wrapping and trapping. Thoughts are events like anything else.
Back to DE

Quote: Look at this sort of experience. Could it be that you start by being right here, right now, in DE in THE PRESENT, possibly just hearing, and then, somewhere along the line thoughts pop up? Examine those to see if they are about past and future events.

This is helpful - examine thoughts to see if they are about past/future. I can do that.

Thank you again Jonathan,
Liz

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan - some more on why I find this an effort.

Habitual thinking is happening - about getting this right, putting enough effort in. Doing, doing, doing. This isn't the way is it?
Allowing those old drivers to subside.
Will they ever subside? Perhaps to just let them be there.....

Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Notice you have only just written this. I'll make brief comment and answer mor fully later.

Doing, doing, doing. This isn't the way is it?

Well, there is no 'doer', as there is no 'me'. 'You' can't 'do' diect experience. It is simply about noticing what IS. You can't do it wrong.

Allowing those old drivers to subside.
Will they ever subside? Perhaps to just let them be there.....

Just let them be there. It's part of DE. Thoughts cannot be prevented from arising.

Try looking straight at the 'me' that wishes 'old drivers to subside'

Since 'me' isn't actually 'there' 'old drivers' have no jurisdiction, except that thought thinks 'old drivers are holding me back'. Could they? How?



Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

I did start to write a longer reply but then, being tired, managed to loose it before saving! Sorry. :-)

I wonder if you would like to write? I am too tired to write this evening but very interested to know how you are getting on?



Best wishes,

Jonathan