DUNEWORKS

[vinceschubert]

'morning Pat.

with no purpose

Pat, do you think that nature has purpose ?
What is purpose ?

The thoughts that have been flowing today is a feeling of loss

So the feeling of loss is an emotion born of the story of loss ? Is this how the process works ?

the assumption that there was a continuing of the I being reborn even if it was just the essence of the persona life after life giving a feeling of something immortal thats blown out of the water now

If you look, can you find a sense of freedom from this as well ?

a continual mind stream of thoughts arising coming from impulses fired from the brain matter with no originator

Yes, true. No self generating them. But they do have a particular 'flavor', unique to the organism with the label Patrick, don't they ? What shapes those thoughts ?

I am reminding myself throughout the day when possible to reflect on when doing actions or being aware of things that they happen without me the I initiating them

Yes, good. Be relaxed about it though.
A really good facilitator of the brain re-wiring is laughter.
The brain will re-wire (new synaptic connections established) each time the old conditioning is thwarted. (old neuronal pathways frustrated by inhibiting completion - leading to atrophy)
The moment that Recognition occurs, the 'living out' of the content of that story is dropped.
Recognition that Pat was 'lost' in the content of a thought stream, will come with an "Aha !" This Recognition may happen some time after the event. "Oh, I was angry/sad/happy/elated/depressed/etc, because I was believing thought ABOUT suchandsuch." ...or it might come during the 'event', ..or even before it. "WoW !, I was about to get sucked into that story. Hahahaa."
Whenever it happens, laugh. Laugh out loud. A great big guffaw if you are alone (or aren't embarrassed by the presence others) If that isn't appropriate a chuckle or even a silent smile with eyes only is fine. Whatever you do, just make sure that your stomach contracts. This has the effect of releasing Oxytocin (a happiness, hormone) which has the effect of neutralizing any stress hormones that would have been released by negative emotions. If you Recognize that you were feeling elated because of story, then allow it, but realize that story was involved.
Can you stop thoughts ?
Then relax and wait for the Recognition, the discovery to occur. Then celebrate that recognition with a laugh.

was tempted erase it but that would not help you in seeing where i'm at

Yes, good thinking. Don't erase anything. A good rant is the best.

yes I realise they won't have any reason to be answered after going through the gate

This realisation IS a toe through the gate.
What ? Do you expect fireworks when you go through the gate ?

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

Hi Vince just a thought is it ok to listen to the LU Quotes whilst going through this process of clearing feeling more relaxed today, trying to remember to look at where the I is and reminding myself when I follow thoughts and let a story begin to let them flow by, it is becoming more and more clear when I think to myself about attachment and addictions ie: the way the mind acts when seeing attractive females to see the thoughts arise and be aware of them and not follow them and not feed them only after the fact at the moment I always thought it was the self, now I am starting to realise that it is the constant feeding of those particular thoughts. I am also recognizing that it is not about trying block thoughts rather let them just fade not that easy though HE he! looking for the I even though I consciously I know it can't be found the reality that it doesn't exist still not realised Hope your have had a wonderful weekend Regards Patrick

[DUNEWORKS]

Pat, do you think that nature has purpose ?
What is purpose ?

not any more. I think nature is just flowing

So the feeling of loss is an emotion born of the story of loss ? Is this how the process works ?

starting to realise that there is nothing to feel loss

If you look, can you find a sense of freedom from this as well ?

Yea! I was reflecting on it yesterday while cooking at work seeing that the burden of not having worry about if there is a good or bad rebirth ahead is freeing , but still the feeling of not connecting with loved ones that have gone and who will follow, tinge of sadness still, then again understanding when the penny really drops that they and I never were in the first place

Yes, true. No self generating them. But they do have a particular 'flavor', unique to the organism with the label Patrick, don't they ? What shapes those thoughts ?

I still have a problem with getting around where it all originates from, neurons through genetic genes of this identity or from habits collected through my life experinces, thinking what causes us to pay so much attention to addictions and cravings

This realisation IS a toe through the gate.
What ? Do you expect fireworks when you go through the gate ?

logically no, though In the back of my mind a little me saying ha this is a great way to realise the emptiness the practices I was doing in Dzogchen teachings with seeing that mind is just a vision and deepening the the process of the fivefold teaching of Dawa Gyaltsen "I am not continuing with them" Vince but they are very much present in my thoughts being so similar to the LU gate process I realise this could actually be a problem as it can end up being me repeating another realisation and not my own seeing at the same time not wanting to force my thoughts and let them flow at least telling you this you will see when I am being a parrot and really seeing

I have a picture at work of a small child in monks robes and he is sitting with his eyes closed smiling and on it is a koan " Make friends with yourself and you will never be lonely" I had a inspiration to write under it " there never was anyone to make friends with" a while later I remembered a koan from the Chan and Zen teaching of Hui Neng the 5th Patriarch "everyday clean the mirror so no dust can gather, and Hui Neng added there never was a mirror to wipe clean this made me reflect if the inspiration came from myself of just from memories have a wonderful evening Vince Pat

[vinceschubert]

'Morning Pat,

is it ok to listen to the LU Quotes whilst going through this process

Hmm, how do you listen to them ? Better to pick one and ponder it for the whole day than to just let them roll over you while waiting for a bell to ring.

trying to remember to look at where the I is

It's time to switch from looking for an actual, separate I to noticing how the process works. To how was that I constructed.

reminding myself when I follow thoughts and let a story begin to let them flow by,

i know what you mean, but this is an example of how the story of I is created and reinforced. When you say "I remind myself to do something", there are both the reference to an actual, independent self, and the implication that that self has control and can control those thoughts.
How did the remembering (to let them flow) arise ?
Can there be anything more than an intention to "let them flow" ?
Where does that intention come from ? (is it controlled ?)
It's the same with "flowing". Can there be more than intention ?
What is the response if forgetting (to do this) happens ?

it is not about trying block thoughts rather let them just fade not that easy though

"not that easy" suggests control again. Whenever the discovery that you have been sucked into them happens, laugh. It is conditioning (habit) that we are changing here. Not developing control.

looking for the I even though I consciously I know it can't be found the reality that it doesn't exist still not realised

Ok, i'll tell you a secret. There is an I. A Self.
It is a story. It has many chapters and is very complicated. It is a wonderful book of fiction, but told so cleverly that most people take it to be a documentary. As life-ing happens, just notice how it is written.

i have to run. Will get to the next post this afternoon.

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

Hmm, how do you listen to them ? Better to pick one and ponder it for the whole day than to just let them roll over you while waiting for a bell to ring.

good evening vince just got back from work noted what I am doing is listening to one then reflecting on it for 1 or 2 hrs before the next

Ok, i'll tell you a secret. There is an I. A Self.
It is a story. It has many chapters and is very complicated. It is a wonderful book of fiction, but told so cleverly that most people take it to be a documentary. As life-ing happens, just notice how it is written.

cool just can't find the dammed author though ...

Hi Vince today the I had "raging" questions coming up ie: is this process just a clever way of self indoctrination and if there is I no control what stands to check the Patrick entity conscience and one of my Patrick addictions is sexual cravings struggle to not be too addicted to internet porn it ends up as a game being played with no fulfillment ever achieved, seeing this arise resonates that the I identity is feeling threatened starting to see that cravings are just habitual thoughts that have concreted themselves in the Patrick identity, I guess one of the hopes the I had, was the cessation of the cravings once through the gate
also the I is missing the comfort of the daily meditations and has been a constant inner argument to meditate with the excuse of it will help with the process, then being aware I am just following thoughts once again and being like a dog chasing its tail the I very satisfied that it is still in control, when I negative actions arise I have been looking at them and thinking what causes the these thoughts to arise and why does the it create a feeling of excitement trying to see where they arise from, what generates the arising is it just habit through a lifelong following of cravings and self pleasures and seeing no I what is feeling the satisfaction ?

[vinceschubert]

'Morning Pat.

what I am doing is listening to one then reflecting on it for 1 or 2 hrs before the next

Ok, that's fine. Just bring back here any queries or questions that arise.

cool just can't find the dammed author though ...

Ha, of course. Is there an author to a dogs' personality ?
It's conditions and experiences and genes that shape an organisms predilections. In fact, reflect on this; Everything that has ever happened, since the beginning of existence, necessarily had to happen exactly the way it did, for things to be as they are.

is this process just a clever way of self indoctrination

Yes. Well actually it is more like a de-briefing after indoctrination. What will happen is that much conditioning will be recognized and the neuronal pathways in the brain will be allowed to atrophy from disuse (actually we will actively thwart the satisfaction derived from their usage completion) and new synaptic connections that build new neuronal pathways will occur. See this video; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

if there is I no control what stands to check the Patrick entity conscience

Conscience/morality is a concept. A story. It changes with the times and the prevailing cultural mores. The default state of the organism is health and happiness. This requires no outside help. It is the nature of the organism. Excessive sexual cravings, just like excessive appetite for food are the result of attempting to find joy that is missing because of inappropriate conditioning (twisted indoctrination) Much stress is induced by what we consider a normal lifestyle. Just think, how much more relaxed Patrick will be when he stops worrying about all of the things that he thought that he had to control ?

the I identity is feeling threatened

Understandably so. Familiarity is safety for the organism. This will fade as you start to see how life-ing flows easily when not interfered with. (no control imposed on it) What does the phrase "Don't push the river" mean to you ?

also the I is missing the comfort of the daily meditations

Yes, this was used as a drug. When you return to it, the benefits will be greater and more in line with a healthy organism.

then being aware I am just following thoughts once again

Excellent. This is how the old conditioning is being undone.

I have been looking at them and thinking what causes the these thoughts to arise and why does the it create a feeling of excitement trying to see where they arise from, what generates the arising is it just habit through a lifelong following of cravings and self pleasures

Yes. No need to think about them. Just recognising that they are there is enough. Remember to laugh when this recognition happens. Have you been doing this ?

what is feeling the satisfaction ?

The organism.

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

Ok, that's fine. Just bring back here any queries or questions that arise.

Yes Vince it has been much more centered and the quotes more clear with dawning of their meaning becoming clearer I have the feeling of why didn't I see that earier thinking yes I get it now

Ha, of course. Is there an author to a dogs' personality ?
It's conditions and experiences and genes that shape an organisms predilections. In fact, reflect on this; Everything that has ever happened, since the beginning of existence, necessarily had to happen exactly the way it did, for things to be as they are.

driving back from work today had the feeling if the existence of this entity ceased right now that it would be fine with no worry of rebirth or feeling of not being ready, with the knowing that this feeling will go up and down and eventually not even come to mind

[DUNEWORKS]

Well actually it is more like a de-briefing after indoctrination.

get now! the self has been brainwashed by the identifying with thoughts that i actually exists, and the clarity that is dawning is clearing all the self delusions of this life identified with a self

The_Three_Brains_that_Allow_Us_to_Go_from_Thinking_to_Doing_to_Being.mp4

fantastic love his clear talk of how the brain works makes so much sense and creates an excitement into how the mind can change, also had the feeling that with this process that is happening that this is infact what is happening now

Conscience/morality is a concept. A story. It changes with the times and the prevailing cultural mores. The default state of the organism is health and happiness. This requires no outside help. It is the nature of the organism. Excessive sexual cravings, just like excessive appetite for food are the result of attempting to find joy that is missing because of inappropriate conditioning (twisted indoctrination) Much stress is induced by what we consider a normal lifestyle. Just think, how much more relaxed Patrick will be when he stops worrying about all of the things that he thought that he had to control ?

yes seeing how worrying about these type of emotions is just again following thoughts and feeding the very neurons that cause the stress create the attachment to the I PERSONALITY

Don't push the river" mean to you ?

Trying to resist things that the I feels are not appropriate ie: swimming against the tide, thereby again being consumed by the very thoughts, more & more I am becoming aware of when the I starts following thoughts and not being fooled into playing a game with it to continue the story

Yes, this was used as a drug. When you return to it, the benefits will be greater and more in line with a healthy organism.

very true see it now hence the frequency of falling into dullness whilst meditating, what has also been happening Vince is the bells ringing in my consciousness of when listening teachings before beginning this journey, thinking shit yes now I get it what the teachers were trying to explain

No need to think about them. Just recognising that they are there is enough. Remember to laugh when this recognition happens. Have you been doing this ?

Yes Vince I have been laughing
also a realisation that my expectations of going through the gate and expecting some feeling may not happen as there really is no gate or I to go through this awareness is from listening to the LU Quotes but more than that also a feeling inside
lastly I go through ups and downs when there is the feeling of pure exhilaration to down again like a yo yo

thanks Vince,Pat

[vinceschubert]

'Morning Pat

the self has been brainwashed by the identifying with thoughts that i actually exists,

It's more accurate to say that the brain has been conditioned to produce thoughts of a nature that lead to the illusion. It is an indoctrination into the cult(ure) of whatever society that we are raised in. It's interesting that it happens in (almost) every culture. Language is the main tool. Of course it is most powerful because it is seen as normal. We can't escape the use of personal pronouns in language, so we just have to be aware that when we say "I/Me" etc that it is just a figure of speech and not an actual Self that we are referring to.

this is infact what is happening now

Absolutely.

What does "Don't push the river" mean to you ?
Trying to resist things that the I feels are not appropriate

Hmm, i take it to mean that as the river flows by itself, then pushing it is both unnecessary and a total waste of energy.
..but yes, resisting things feeds them and makes them stronger. Better to watch with detached interest. They will fade quicker.

thinking shit yes now I get it what the teachers were trying to explain

Ha yes. After the gate J Krishnamurti actually started to make sense (here). In fact remembering that was one of the strongest 'doubt dispelling thoughts that arose.

I go through ups and downs

Yes, who doesn't ? That means that you are alive and human.
Next time that you have a downer and you realize that it is happening, come back right into NOW, and ask yourself "Right NOW, is there anything wrong here ?" Be totally in the present. No stories, and see if behind the emotion (the down feeling) if there isn't a sense of peace and ok-ness.

Pat, what we are doing here is learning to distinguish what is real from what is story. Previously much story (thought stream stuff) was taken to be actual, real. Once it is recognized to be pure concept, the emotional reaction to it drops away. Soon it doesn't happen at all because we SEE story before it actually gets acted out.
The thing i'm pointing to here is that the world is no different to before this started, but...
There is a saying amongst the awakened. "Nothing has changed, but everything is different."
Can you grok this ?

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

morning Vince what has been coming up is looking into the I identity and finding nothing thought stream brings up the view the I personality had before embarking on our discussions to see reality as it really is, what manifests is memories of when I was 13 seeing an entity in the spirit realm which seems to solidify something other than the physical and when I was about 26 having a out of body experience where I had been meditating and become frustrated with nothing happening and going to bed and lying down and totally relaxing I felt a rush and the minute I was on the ceiling looking at myself lying in bed then excitement and being back in the body looking at this now from the no self perspective I don't recall seeing the presence of what I assumed was the soul anywhere other than looking at the body in bed,it give the I a feeling that there is something even if it is not a individual I identity, also when my mom died feeling a sense of loss and getting a phone call from my sister in another province to say my mom had just died , it is as if the I identity is trying really hard to point out that there something other than just the body even if the the I can't be seen that thew essence is there, I have been looking at how thoughts come and go and seeing how when I was meditating how they would just rage though the mind when trying to be one pointed in meditation and how this is what happens constantly, the above is again following the thoughts instead of just letting them flow, however in order to realise my gut feeling is investigate and clear all doubts so as to truly see and not just accept as blind faith which I feel would be just letting the I personality play it game. Vince have a wonderful sunday regards and heartfelt appreciation Pat

[vinceschubert]

Morning Pat.

to see reality as it really is,

Ok, this is the big one.
First question (please quote the question before answering every one - answer each one before reading the next for this session)
From the perspective of the organism with the label Patrick,
What is reality ?



(This is a different question) What is real ?






Your thoughts are real, but is what they are about actual or only experienced as a concept at this moment ?







Would it be accurate to say that the only thing that is real in this moment, here, now, is what you are experiencing ?








Now it is possible that the content of a thought story will turn out to be (more or less) accurate when it it experienced, but until then it remains in the realm of concept. Right ?
It is also possible that we might never get to confirm the content of a thought stream. Until that happens, we will leave it somewhere that i call the great mystery.
Is it all right to not know the accuracy of every story that arises ?
Will we ever actually know about your experience with that entity or the out of body experience ?
Do you remember the section in the Secret Self where the researcher used virtual reality goggles and a camera to place the subjects sense of Self outside his body and behind him ?
What does it say about experience when we can manipulate it like this ?
Is the experience real ?

it is as if the I identity is trying really hard to point out that there something other than just the body

Do you assume that there is something called the "I identity" that is applying purpose here, or is it more than assumption ? (don't get into what it is about here. Just observe the process that is actually happening)

..is again following the thoughts instead of just letting them flow,

Ok, this is another big one. Can you control your thoughts ? Can you stop any thought from starting to arise ?
When you just "follow" your thoughts, what happens ?
Is it that you are having other thoughts about the first thought stream ?
Can you keep doing that ? ..or does the normal thought chaos resume pretty quickly ?

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

Vince I just finished answering the post and pushed send but I'm not sure if it has been posted let me know if it has not and I will do it again hope it has as that will be the spontaneity gone

[vinceschubert]

No Pat, it didn't happen.
When this happens to me i take it as a sign that if i don't try and rewrite what i had done before, then i will discover something that i missed last time.
If it worries you then you can type somewhere else and then cut and paste it in. (i don't bother with this)

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

From the perspective of the organism with the label Patrick,
What is reality ?

the here and now in the physical not memories of the future

What is real ?

everything that is happening now in the present and not thoughts of the imagination

Your thoughts are real, but is what they are about actual or only experienced as a concept at this moment ?

Hmm! not sure that thoughts are real as they are the constant flow from neuro pathways with no beginning and just evaporate and I find that 99% of thoughts turn out to be garbage and hearsay

Would it be accurate to say that the only thing that is real in this moment, here, now, is what you are experiencing ?

yes, even though the understanding that what happened was real but no longer as past cannot be real as it no longer exists except in memories that are just thoughts, this is something I think everyone assumes that past is still real

Now it is possible that the content of a thought story will turn out to be (more or less) accurate when it it experienced, but until then it remains in the realm of concept. Right ?

yes this is true, I'm beginning to understand that even when the thoughts materialise that they are actually just the acting out of neurons that fired in the brain with no I behind them or controlling them

It is also possible that we might never get to confirm the content of a thought stream. Until that happens, we will leave it somewhere that i call the great mystery.

I don't think there is even a chance of confirming any thought because the minute we try it is already another thought

Is it all right to not know the accuracy of every story that arises ?

again how I am feeling in the present moment is none of the thoughts turn out to be accurate as the mind inflates and creates grandeur of each thought actions

Will we ever actually know about your experience with that entity or the out of body experience ?

in the back on the mind is the little voice saying yea! you can deny by agreeing that it is just memories which are not reality it but the Patrick persona experienced it, in the now I see it as cemented neuro pathways that have been built and are constantly affirmed by the thoughts the I has just quoted, so no we will never know about the experiences other than the thoughts of it

Do you remember the section in the Secret Self where the researcher used virtual reality goggles and a camera to place the subjects sense of Self outside his body and behind him ?

no but will definitely watch it again this I reckon will help weaken those cemented neural pathways which are already dissipating with this awarness

What does it say about experience when we can manipulate it like this ?

that it could have been and probably was the Illusory I that manifested it all hence not reality

Is the experience real ?

doubting it now ?

Do you assume that there is something called the "I identity" that is applying purpose here, or is it more than assumption ? (don't get into what it is about here. Just observe the process that is actually happening)

hmm! it is an assumption

Can you control your thoughts ? Can you stop any thought from starting to arise ?

no

When you just "follow" your thoughts, what happens ?

more stories

Is it that you are having other thoughts about the first thought stream ?

yes I see that now that you have pointed it out story about the story he he!! groundhog day

Can you keep doing that ? ..or does the normal thought chaos resume pretty quickly ?

I am seeing that all is chaos and at the same time as it should with nothing there to change it and when the I trys to just happens anyway

it is getting easier to not react when things happen and when I do react becoming aware much quicker and not feeding the reactions but rather laughing at the self for being the story..

Vince I watched a vid on the effects of LSD tests in the 50's "man" the things the subject saw very much how I perceive going through the gate would be" the awareness" side of her experience in the now, without the mind altering effects of LSD looking at it I can see how it happens because to I has no control at that point here is there link

Thanks Vince go well thank you ...til next time Pat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTjRi0x2Cyg

[vinceschubert]

'morning Patrick,

mm! not sure that thoughts are real as they are the constant flow from neuro pathways with no beginning and just evaporate and I find that 99% of thoughts turn out to be garbage and hearsay

Yes, this is a little tricky. A thought consists of what it is about. Remove the subject and the thought ceases to exist. To know a thought is to know its' content. What it is about. This all seems accurate. But there is a couple of way of experiencing that same thought. We can, without realizing it, live out the content of it, or we can 'objectify' it so that we see the fact that a thought arose. We may still 'act it out', but now with the knowing that we are doing it. Usually, when a story is seen to be not useful, it is dropped.

Is the experience real ?
doubting it now ?

Oh, the experiencing was very real. The thought that spawned it was only about something, but the response to that thought fluff was a real experience. The sense of a Self is a real sensation. It's just that it is stimulated by a host of concepts. (thought fluff)

I am seeing that all is chaos and at the same time as it should with nothing there to change it and when the I trys to just happens anyway

Exactly, so you might as well just kick back and enjoy the ride.

ooking at it I can see how it happens because to I has no control at that point

Do you actually experience the I having any control at any point ?
Is control just another illusion that the mind created ?
Is it a critical part of the story of Patrick ?

love

vince