At the front door, waiting for you

[kenbok]

Hi B,

Some requests for clarification from the guiding team:

1. We'd like you to answer Q5 again, describing decision, intention, free will, choice and control with examples from experience: What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

2. A guide feels that your answer to Q2 is conceptual. Please report on what you see in direct experience?

3.

I'm no longer sure any help is needed, maybe we can do this testing thing?

What is this confirmation you are looking for? Is this a test?

4. Another guide is concerned on the suddenness of the shift, can you expand on your answer to Q4? What happened after your brief realization?

Appreciate your patience.
K

[1llusion]

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is the idea of there being an independent entity, doing and feeling/thinking something. If you are asking for a perspective with respect to my (or anyones) biography, I assume it starts in childhood. You could also say it starts anew everytime the following happens: Things happen or are sensed, sometimes a thought arises saying "I am doing X" or "I am feeling/seeing/hearing Y". So in the thought the experience or action is claimed as belonging to a separate entity, "hidden" somewhere.

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Things happen, sometimes they are accompanied with a thought of "I do X now" or "I will do Y soon", often they are not. But since "I" is only in the thought, "I" doesn't do anything. Same applies for "intention". "Free will" is the idea that not only one particular action claimed by a thought is done by someone, but that this is true for all actions. A concrete example would be: A thought appears "I will open my fist" and incidently, also the fist is opened. So there is a temporal correlation between the thought and the opening, which re-inforces the idea of a "me" doing it.

What is this confirmation you are looking for? Is this a test?

I wanted to speed up the process of what we are doing here since I believed these five questions (which I called "the testing") were the mandatory end of a guiding process; so it was an attempt to "skip ahead".

Another guide is concerned on the suddenness of the shift, can you expand on your answer to Q4? What happened after your brief realization?

Before that I was riding my bike, looking for the thinker. After the realization I continued riding my bike, but a new pattern of thinking appeard, which would often go like this: "I am doing X" followed by "Who is doing?" / "You don't exist, you can't do anything" (sometimes in a mocking tone). The development until now is that it has started to fade in frequency and intensity. But when it happens, it is accompanied with a feeling of lightness in the head.

Appreciate your patience.

Sure, but it's not like anyone here has a choice, eh? ;)

[kenbok]

Would you say now that 'You do not exist'?

Regardless of whether yes or no, could you elaborate on how you come to that particular answer.

Who or what is reading this sentence now? Who or what will reply to this message?

You mention after the realisation that a new pattern of thinking occurred - Has this now stayed with you? Is this part of the realisation?

I wanted to speed up the process of what we are doing here since I believed these five questions (which I called "the testing") were the mandatory end of a guiding process; so it was an attempt to "skip ahead".

Who is doing the speeding up here? Is there a final destination with no-self? Is it a process at all?

Just a reminder to answer from direct experience: what is true in the moment, and not concepts.

K

[1llusion]

Would you say now that 'You do not exist'? Regardless of whether yes or no, could you elaborate on how you come to that particular answer.

I would phrase it differently. I would say that the "I" that assumes identity does not exist, since it is not part of the experience of reality. It is nowhere to be experienced. It is content of thought. Thoughts are experienced, their content is not real.

Who or what is reading this sentence now? Who or what will reply to this message?

No idea.

You mention after the realisation that a new pattern of thinking occurred - Has this now stayed with you? Is this part of the realisation?

It is still there; now it is typically followed by annoyance though. It seems to be a mechanism that is triggered by any "I" thought, which it apparently tries to correct, so I would say it is part of the realisation, if we can consider it an ongoing process.

Who is doing the speeding up here? Is there a final destination with no-self? Is it a process at all?

The attempt to speed it up happened by itself. No, for whom? Not sure how to answer this, is it related to the idea of time in the sense that "the process" is a sequence of steps? Please clarify.

[kenbok]

Thanks B.

There is still a concern from a guide about your seeing:

"When you came to LU, was it feeling that seeing had already happened and mainly wanting confirmation? If not, can you try to explain in simple terms (e.g. as though to your neighbour or kid brother i.e. avoiding advaita speak) what changed so suddenly that you felt ready for the final questions before any pointing had really happened? Either way, was there ever a 'wow' moment? It's ok to explain in everyday language. No need to 'hide out' in absolute talk."

In other words, can you answer Q4 as though you were speaking to someone who knows nothing about LU?

[1llusion]

I think it is good to be concerned, because I realized another thing today:

I came to LU believing you could help me free myself, but I was determined (as posted in the introduction) to "do it" myself. So I had the hope/idea/intention, in the time it takes for kenbok to answer my request, I could proceed so far as to claim the realization as my own. And that's what I believe happened: I made myself believe I had this realization (fed by all the artefacts of people's guide reports here and the "gateless gatecrasher") -- and also replied to your questions accordingly (i.e. from logic and belief in having gotten it). What was really going on was this "I" pattern tried to re-inforce itself via the internal dialogue between the usual "I"-thinking and the "No you are not an I" thinking, thus "feigning" realization, that's where I felt a strange sensation I would describe as kind of "conflict" or "split".

Today though, in combination with plenty of fear (which I could observe in a detached way, so it was not a problem; actually I was on my way to somewhere and just hoped it would get not so bad as to allow my body continue walking and getting there), I realized the above. Since then, the "split" seems to have been resolved, at least the dialogue is done. In fact, I am not thinking all too much since then. I still feel light in the head at times, but it is actually quite pleasant (like the release of some tensions or smt.).

So there was no "Wow" moment, it is more like a continuous struggle with increasing clarity.

[kenbok]

OK B. Thank you for your honesty. Let's ease up a little and go through some easy exercises. We're not going anywhere, and this is certainly not a competition. :)

Let's start from the beginning. Let go of everything that has transpired so far. Please read the following:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require a simple, uncontrived, honest looking approach. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read this article: [url]http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ /url] for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. It's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.

Please familiarise yourself with the topics in the announcements section at the top of the Guiding Area, especially in relation to the quote function.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer.

Please answer these 3 questions:

What are your expectations for this process?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this change you?

K

[1llusion]

I confirm to have read a lot of stuff on/about LU and DE and agree to the disclaimer.

However: I cannot find a meaningful answer to any of these questions. (Not sure if this is another attempt at avoiding to actually look.)

[kenbok]

We're not looking for meaningful answers here. Figuring out the answers is part of your process... Try again B.

[1llusion]

Maybe I should clarify.

Take the first question "What are your expectations for this process?": the first thought that comes is "I have no expectations", then "I don't even know what I am doing here." then "What is this even, an 'expectation'", then "Maybe, I want to get rid of the 'chatter'", then "This still doesn't feel like 'my' answer." -- so there is a lot of chatter, but none of it feels like my answer.

[1llusion]

What are your expectations for this process?

I want to be liberated.

How will you know that you found it?

By realizing that I am liberated.

How will this change you?

I will be liberated.

Another try, but also pointless; if it seems like I am trying to make fun of you, I would say that I actually have no idea what this liberation is supposed to be. I could also substitute "liberation" by "seeing through the illusion" or "the end of internal chatter", or some even more elaborate term, without an idea what it actually is or should be.

What is there, however, is the desire to be recognized as "having gotten it" by an authority (i.e. a guide) -- on the other hand I know it would not mean anything.

[1llusion]

Next try:

What are your expectations for this process?

I think I have started something, which I feel stuck in, and I want to finish it. So the expectation is to finish the process.

How will you know that you found it?

The feeling of "being stuck somewhere in the middle" is gone.

How will this change you?

The feeling of being stuck is gone; worries/fears about my current state of mind (which I would label as weird and sometimes fearful) are gone.

It actually made sense to me when I wrote the above, but now re-reading it, it seems to be the same kind of answer I already gave in the previous reply. Now I wonder if I might have gone insane? Hope you can make any sense out of all of this, apparently I can't.

[1llusion]

Another note (sorry for making it such a fine grained process) -- take it for what it's worth: I think I have given up on the idea of a "me" doing anything; it feels more like a witnessing; what seems to exist still is the idea that I am witnessing "it", but not as some core in the experience, instead I imagine to be surrounding the experience, i.e., the experience is "inside" of me, although this "me" does not seem to have any outer boundary. Weird.

Incidently, it seems to correspond with the wish to not experience "the crazyness" (all these thoughts, fears) anymore, smt. over which I presume to have no control.

[kenbok]

Thanks B. I'm glad I asked you to try again, it certainly gave me more to work with than 'I cannot find a meaningful answer...'.

What I would like to do is to scale down the mental activity and just have you connect to your total, direct experience (used in a somewhat poetic sense). Try this exercise:

For the next 5 or 10 minutes observe everything happening. Make a list i.e. I hear a car drive past, I go and make a cup of tea, I watch tv etc. Once the list is finished, re-do the list without referring to a ‘me’, ‘I’ or ‘self’ i.e. hearing a car, going to make a cup of tea etc. Tell me what difference you see between the two lists.

[1llusion]

The new list looks like a set of commands.