I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

[Xain]

Simple, eh? If we were chatting on the phone, not engaged in this particular discussion, and you asked me this question, I would say that I am sitting on the couch, looking at my computer screen and reading words off of it… yes.

I guess, short answer, is yes.

At this stage, that is really all I need.
Just simple.

Right now, you may have an IDEA that this is not the case. However, I need to tackle root beliefs.
For our discussion, please put what you have read in Gateless gatecrashers to one side (and any other spiritual ideas).
Try not to answer from 'what you think is right' or 'what I think Xain might want to hear' - Just answer very simply from what you honestly believe.

But… as this inquiry into who “I” am is not new, I understand that “I” am nowhere to be found. There is a body, there is a computer screen, there is typing.

We will go into depth in our study shortly. Let's just establish what is believed for the moment, as a base which we can explore. Just be completely honest.

Do you have control over your life?
What I truly believe is no.
I don’t think that I “see” (with 100% clarity) this as being true. It’s a belief right now.

Thank you for your honesty. We'll explore this area, so you can gain 100% clarity.

Do you have control over your body?
I’ve been observing this recently and I would say no, I don’t have control over my body. But it does seem that “I” do things intentionally

Hmmm. A paradox.
I think you might agree that you don't have direct control over your heart beating.
But what about the hands? Don't you control the hands when you type? Is it clear that you don't?

The body . . .

the body is not me… and yet, it still appears to be “mine.”

No problem - We'll look into this together.
Right now, I just want a basis to begin with. It appears to be 'yours' is fine at this stage.

Thoughts tell me that it is me who is doing this stuff

Ah. So you are the 'receiver' of thoughts. The thoughts appear 'to you'.

It appears that “I” am able to, at times, direct the inquiry for more thoughts to appear

Good. So you appear to have a limited control. That's fine.

It points to a set of behaviors, history, actions, achievements, losses, etc. that people call Jeremy.

Ok. So the memory of previous events shapes your identity perhaps?

And then there are the moments when it feels like “I” might actually disappear.

Just notice the subtle belief here. That right now there is an 'I' that can 'disappear'.

What do you think so far? Let me know your thoughts on what I have written.

Xain ♥

[jeronimo]

Right now, you may have an IDEA that this is not the case. However, I need to tackle root beliefs.

Good.. tackle, please. I’ll do my best not to block ;)

I think you might agree that you don't have direct control over your heart beating.
But what about the hands? Don't you control the hands when you type? Is it clear that you don’t?

Agreed. No control over my heart beat.

The hands is where I’m “in-between.” Since I have read a bunch of liberation stories, I have done a bunch of exercises, including raising my arm and seeing if I was causing it to raise, etc. I recognize that I don’t have control there. So, while I type this, it certainly seems like there is a thought-intention to type something… but the hands seem to operate independently. No control.

Of course, since I learned how to type way back in high-school, typing has been automatic anyway. To be clear, it does seem that I am somehow intending the typing to happen - but I've always wondered about how I could think and type simultaneously. There is certainly no control over the individual fingers doing the typing.

Thoughts tell me that it is me who is doing this stuff

Ah. So you are the 'receiver' of thoughts. The thoughts appear 'to you’.

Yes, I think that is ok. There does seem to be some me that is paying attention to thoughts.

It appears that “I” am able to, at times, direct the inquiry for more thoughts to appear

Good. So you appear to have a limited control. That's fine.

Yes.. the appearance of limited control is still there.

It points to a set of behaviors, history, actions, achievements, losses, etc. that people call Jeremy.

Ok. So the memory of previous events shapes your identity perhaps?

I’d say that sounds right. Not just the memory of previous events, but the interaction with other people who have memories of who Jeremy is. Seems to build and firm the identity.

And then there are the moments when it feels like “I” might actually disappear.

Just notice the subtle belief here. That right now there is an 'I' that can ‘disappear’.

Yup. It’s that place that I come up against. There is definitely a feeling of an I that can disappear. So there are ideas and maybe temporary experiences of no-I, but a firm hold on the I… which feels to be the cause of my suffering. Tension between holding and letting go.

What do you think so far? Let me know your thoughts on what I have written.

I think it’s clear that there’s still an I here. The body feels tense as I type. I think we’re laying some good groundwork to take this thing apart.

After the first reading of your responses, my thoughts were around that I’m not sure what I truly believe. I’ve been dismantling them… and then some new info comes in and how am I to know if it becomes a new belief or if it’s truly known?

I’m hoping that I will know when I know.

Thank You, Xain!

[Xain]

After the first reading of your responses, my thoughts were around that I’m not sure what I truly believe. I’ve been dismantling them… and then some new info comes in and how am I to know if it becomes a new belief or if it’s truly known?

Yes - I am getting that from your responses - But that too, is perfectly fine.

I think we’re laying some good groundwork to take this thing apart.

Yes. But not in a brutal way. Simply for you to recognise something which is actually very simple.

Yup. It’s that place that I come up against. There is definitely a feeling of an I that can disappear.

Let me reassure you that there is no real 'thing' that is going to disappear just from you chatting with me :-)
A good analogy is Santa Claus.
Initially as a child there is the belief he really exists. Then as an adult, you realise simply that he doesn't exist as a real person. He's an imaginary character. He's only an idea people have.
Not even a 'bad' idea, since you can still have fun with the idea - You can still enjoy Christmas. Tell your own children and give them the 'magic'.
It's simply realised that he is not 'real' as you used to believe that he was.
That is exactly the same for realising 'no self' - It is as simple as that.

That's probably enough of the groundwork covered - So let's start looking into some things.

Agreed. No control over my heart beat.

The hands is where I’m “in-between.” Since I have read a bunch of liberation stories, I have done a bunch of exercises, including raising my arm and seeing if I was causing it to raise,

Great - Well let's try this together and see what can be found.

It is very important to try to establish what answer you might get from thinking about it, and what answer you get from the experience itself. Don't worry about this at the moment. It will become clearer as we go and explore.

As you sit there, choose one of your arms. It doesn't matter which.
Then . . . when you feel that you wish to, raise that arm that you have chosen into the air.

Ok. Do this as many times as you want to.
The standard view / phrase is 'I am controlling my arm and raising it into the air'.
This a thought - An idea of what is going on.

Ok, now examine the ACTUAL EXPERIENCE itself. Can an 'I' be found that is controlling the arm?
What is this 'I' that is causing the arm to raise? What can you find?

Xain ♥

[jeronimo]

As you sit there, choose one of your arms. It doesn't matter which.
Then . . . when you feel that you wish to, raise that arm that you have chosen into the air.

Ok. Do this as many times as you want to.
The standard view / phrase is 'I am controlling my arm and raising it into the air'.
This a thought - An idea of what is going on.

Ok, now examine the ACTUAL EXPERIENCE itself. Can an 'I' be found that is controlling the arm?
What is this 'I' that is causing the arm to raise? What can you find?

This is a great exercise. There is a me trying the exercise. Looking for the "I" that is actually raising the arm is challenging. If I say "I am controlling my arm and raising it into the air," it feels like I'm controlling it. But when I really look, it's not clear when the arm is actually going to go in the air. That moment of actually raising the arm seems to happen on it's own. And it's not possible to isolate that moment and attribute it "my" decision.

Now, I'm typing and my arm isn't suddenly going in the air. So it does seem that there is an intention to have the arm raised in the air. But there is no controller after the decision is made to do the exercise. I can only notice that it feels like I am watching closely to see if I can notice the actual moment when the arm goes in the air.

[Xain]

There is a me trying the exercise.

Is there?

If I say "I am controlling my arm and raising it into the air," it feels like I'm controlling it

Just look at this closely.
Does it FEEL like there is an 'I' controlling it . . .
Or does a thought say 'I am controlling it', and that thought is automatically believed in?

Try to examine the movement itself. The actual experience . . . and what the mind / thought SAYS about what is happening. Can you see a difference?

Have you managed to locate an 'I' that controlled the arm?
Or could it be possible that 'I' is just an idea - A thought appearing?

By the way, what makes it 'your arm'?
Who or what is the owner?

Xain ♥

[jeronimo]

Does it FEEL like there is an 'I' controlling it

Doing this exercise again. All that is felt is the arm raising. there are sensations in the shoulder. It does not feel like there is an "I" controlling it.

Or does a thought say 'I am controlling it', and that thought is automatically believed in?

Yes, when the thought says I'm controlling it, the overall package of thought and movement creates a believable "I" that has control.

But when looked at, this controlling mechanism cannot be found.

Try to examine the movement itself. The actual experience . . . and what the mind / thought SAYS about what is happening.

Thought is quite active around the experience. It's all commentary on the experience. Thoughts say that there must be some unconscious process that is actually controlling the arm.

When looked at, there is no relationship between the thought and the actual movement.

Can you see a difference?

Yes, I do see a difference. Without looking, the process seems to have an "I," but when looked at directly, it's clear that the arm going up is not directly related to any thought and I cannot locate what causes the arm to go up.

By the way, what makes it 'your arm'?

While doing the exercise, the arm definitely appeared like just an arm. Not "my" arm. What makes it "my" arm is the habit of identifying it as so. This arm, this body is always associated with the "me" thoughts.

Who or what is the owner?

Don't know. The simple answer would be "me." This identity/perceiver/process labeled Jeremy. A bunch of thoughts that establish the identity.

Thank You :)

[Xain]

Or does a thought say 'I am controlling it', and that thought is automatically believed in?

Yes, when the thought says I'm controlling it, the overall package of thought and movement creates a believable "I" that has control.
But when looked at, this controlling mechanism cannot be found.

Excellent. Really allow this to sink in, as it is an important discovery.
From the experience, the arm 'just moves'. No controller can be found.
The only controller that might be found is in a thought - 'I'.

What about choice - A chooser?
Try the exercise again, but this time look for what is deciding either left or right.
What is choosing the arm? Can a 'chooser' be found in the experience?
Or is the only chooser to be found in a thought - An idea - 'I', being such a thought?

Thoughts say that there must be some unconscious process that is actually controlling the arm.

Sure - That's what has been believed all along. It is the conventional way of looking at it.
But could it be 'just happening'?
Is there an 'I' that is in control over the body? Or just a thought saying there is?

Not "my" arm. What makes it "my" arm is the habit of identifying it as so. This arm, this body is always associated with the "me" thoughts.

Could it be just another thought? An assumption.
I mean, if the 'arm' was owned, then a seperate owner should be here. Is there one? Or just the thought of one ('I')?

Xain ♥

[jeronimo]

Try the exercise again, but this time look for what is deciding either left or right.
What is choosing the arm? Can a 'chooser' be found in the experience?

There's a commentary in thought... "we're going to lift the left arm." There is no controller lifting the arm... but it's also clear that when that thought process is active, the right arm doesn't suddenly lift. Then the thoughts say "now, the right arm." Then... the right arm lifts. Again, no clear mechanism between the thought and the action.. but no sudden surprise, either.

All the choosing appears to happen as thoughts.

But could it be 'just happening'?

Sure. It could be just happening.

Is there an 'I' that is in control over the body? Or just a thought saying there is?

There is no "I" that is in control... at least as far as causing actions to happen. There is thought that says there is control.

There is thoughts that appear to generate options for what is to come next, without actually controlling the action. "I'm thinking about how to say what I want to say." "I'm going to get up and make breakfast." These thoughts appear to precede the actions being taken.

Could it be just another thought? An assumption.
I mean, if the 'arm' was owned, then a seperate owner should be here. Is there one? Or just the thought of one ('I')?

I suppose that all perception is mediated by thought - or is thought?
I can't find the owner, except as an idea - identity made up of thoughts.
There is an idea of "me" and this "me" has a body... includes the body...

The idea includes the body.

Many Thanks.

[Xain]

Good - So we examine the experience directly and see that a seperate 'controller' cannot be found.
Also, we examine the experience and see that a 'chooser' cannot be found.

Can you see that both 'I control this body' and 'I choose that arm' are just thoughts.
Arms move . . . Arms get selected / chosen . . .
There isn't an 'I' to be found that actually does these things.
The 'I' in both statements is simply an idea about what is happening.
Is this clear at this stage?

Let's look at something else.

I would say that I am sitting on the couch, looking at my computer screen and reading words off of it… yes.

So right now, these words on the screen are being seen, and are also being read / understood.
As we have done before, examine the experience of seeing and reading directly.

Is there a seperate self, an 'I' that is doing the seeing and reading? Can one be found in the experience itself?
Or is it more clear that there is simply 'seeing' and 'reading'.

If we go to thoughts, they may state the standard view that 'I am seeing' and 'I am reading'.
But is there an 'I' to be found actually doing these things?

Xain ♥

[jeronimo]

Can you see that both 'I control this body' and 'I choose that arm' are just thoughts.

Yes.

The 'I' in both statements is simply an idea about what is happening.
Is this clear at this stage?

What's very clear is that there is no mechanism to be found tying a thought about lifting an arm to an arm lifting. It's clear that "I control this body" and "I choose that arm" are just thoughts.

Yet, there is still this matter of thoughts focusing on the right arm, preparing to lift the arm (so they say) and eventually the arm going up. No experience of the thoughts saying the arm will lift and the arm not lifting at all or the body hopping on one leg by surprise.

But very clearly no controller of the action when it happens.

So right now, these words on the screen are being seen, and are also being read / understood.
As we have done before, examine the experience of seeing and reading directly.

Is there a seperate self, an 'I' that is doing the seeing and reading?

There is seeing and reading. And a swirl of thoughts commenting on the process. The "I" is implied... taken for granted. As though it is simple "there," but at the same time, cannot be located.

If the words are being read and understood... doesn't that imply a reader who understands?

When I look for the "I," it seems that the senses provide a boundary it ... "I" can feel the feet on the ground, the computer on the lap, the hands typing away. Light and words coming through visually. Sounds of the house in the background.

All of this sensory information seems to be received by something.

I would naturally assume that is me.

Can one be found in the experience itself?

Can "I" be found in the experience itself? If you asked me to point to myself, I would point to my body. This body. But I cannot point to a receiver of the words, no. And it is quite clear that "I" am not this body... but that would be "my" reaction to that question.

Or is it more clear that there is simply 'seeing' and 'reading'.

I'd say that when looking in this way, it is clear that there is simply 'seeing' and 'reading'.

But nevertheless, there is an unmistakable feeling that "I" came to the couch to open the computer and read the words so that I might reply.

If we go to thoughts, they may state the standard view that 'I am seeing' and 'I am reading'.
But is there an 'I' to be found actually doing these things?

Yes to thoughts... clear that they inject the "I".
There is not an "I" to be found actually doing these things.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. When looking, it is clear that there is no "I". And yet, the thoughts try to debunk this observation with all kinds of suggestions about control, intention, or some type of ability to consciously act or react.

Gratitude.

[Xain]

If you asked me to point to myself, I would point to my body.

What exactly is this 'you' that is pointing to your body?
Can the body own itself?
What 'I' is controlling the pointing finger?
Is 'I point to my body' just an idea? Is it anything more than just an idea?

Yet, there is still this matter of thoughts focusing on the right arm, preparing to lift the arm

Yes, I understand. Like a mental focussing.
Can you find in the experience what is doing that?
Could this 'focussing' just be happening too?

The "I" is implied... taken for granted.

♥ Indeed!

If the words are being read and understood... doesn't that imply a reader who understands?

To the analysing mind and thoughts, yes, of course.
But step outside of the domain of 'mind and thoughts' and examine the experience directly.
The words are 'read' - Is there an 'I' in the experience of reading that is doing it?
In other words, can the only reader that you can find be the one in thoughts - In other words, the thought 'I'?

All of this sensory information seems to be received by something.

Ok. Again, step outside of the territory of mind, thoughts and ideas and examine the experience directly.
If there an 'I' hearing the sounds inside the house? Or is there just 'hearing'?

The sensation of 'touch' may be a tricky one to examine, as it can often be considered very 'close to home' and 'personal'.
Examine the experience directly - Maybe close your eyes.
Is there an 'I' that feels 'feet on the ground' - Or is there just a sensation?
Are there two clear parts to the sensation? The feet doing the feeling, and the ground that is being felt?
Or just one 'feeling' sensation?

Is the body 'doing' the feeling? Or is there just 'feeling'?
If it is said 'I feel', could this 'I' just be a thought?

And yet, the thoughts try to debunk this observation with all kinds of suggestions about control, intention, or some type of ability to consciously act or react.

Of course - And this is an excellent observation.
The mind has been conditioned for so many years to one particular idea. Now we are examining something new, and the mind might not like it. There may even be a form of 'cognitive dissonance', an unpleasant feeling experienced when two conflicting ideas are trying to be held in the mind at the same time.

Xain ♥

[jeronimo]

If you asked me to point to myself, I would point to my body.
What exactly is this 'you' that is pointing to your body?

This is what we're after, aren't we?
Looking... can't find anything tangible. Only the thoughts about "me." All the conditioned responses that are labeled me.

Can the body own itself?

Not sure what "own" in this context means.

We "know" the body has/conducts intelligence. The heart beats, lungs breathe, etc. In that sense, it seems independent from "me." In direct experience, the body actually feels separate from "me." When I lifted the arm, or rather, when the arm lifted, that was a poignant moment in recognizing the lack of control and (therefore?) independence of the body.

What 'I' is controlling the pointing finger?

It's established that no "I" can be found pointing the finger. Only the conditioned response that "I" am "in here" somewhere ... and yet, cannot be found when looking.

Is 'I point to my body' just an idea? Is it anything more than just an idea?

Hmm... "I point to my body" would refer to the action observed (by whom?). It's something that happens. But when looking for the "I" or it's ownership over the body, that falls apart. So I guess I can say yes, the "I point to my body" is an idea overlaid to the action that happens.

Yet, there is still this matter of thoughts focusing on the right arm, preparing to lift the arm
Can you find in the experience what is doing that?

No. But since there are thoughts that occur before an action that actually takes place, there seems to be a strong correlation of intentionality... the "mental focusing" you described.

For example, I will continue typing this response until I need to get dressed and then go to work. I have these plans in thought and will soon carry them out. (that time arrived... so this continued a bit later...) So there's a nagging appearance of control... at least in the overarching structure/direction of action. As though I'm directing it. Or, rather, that there's a director.

And yet... I cannot find the director anywhere other than in thought, no.

Thoughts still question, however.

step outside of the territory of mind, thoughts and ideas and examine the experience directly.
If there an 'I' hearing the sounds inside the house? Or is there just 'hearing'?

Stepping out of the territory of the mind is a challenge.

Not a challenge when listening. Clear, just hearing sounds.
Typing words in response. Clear, just typing happening.

It's a challenge when examining a larger pattern/structure, like the mental focusing/intentionality discussed above.

Examine the experience directly - Maybe close your eyes.
Is there an 'I' that feels 'feet on the ground' - Or is there just a sensation?

Just sensation. And then thoughts dancing around it, trying to own it.

Are there two clear parts to the sensation? The feet doing the feeling, and the ground that is being felt?

No. There is just sensation. (with eyes closed) The thoughts assign "foot feeling" and "ground being felt."

Is the body 'doing' the feeling? Or is there just 'feeling'?

Just feeling.

If it is said 'I feel', could this 'I' just be a thought?

Yes. Just like the body and ground are thoughts. Easier to dismiss the ground and body than the "I" ... in the afterthought cacophony.

Thank You!

[Xain]

If you asked me to point to myself, I would point to my body.
What exactly is this 'you' that is pointing to your body?
This is what we're after, aren't we?
Looking... can't find anything tangible. Only the thoughts about "me."

That's all that is needed at this stage.
Recognise that all that can be found as to what is doing the pointing is a thought 'me'.

Not sure what "own" in this context means.

Sorry - I mean in the statement 'This is my body' - What owns the body? Who or what does this body belong to?
Can an owner be found in the experience here and now?
Or is 'this is my body' just a thought?

No. But since there are thoughts that occur before an action that actually takes place, there seems to be a strong correlation of intentionality... the "mental focusing" you described.

This might be an interesting discovery. Notice that thoughts (generally) come before or after an event and claim ownership of the action or event. 'I am going to examine my experience now', 'I examined my experience and I found xxxxx' - And yet when the action actually happens, there is no seperate 'I' to be found actually doing it.

No. There is just sensation. (with eyes closed) The thoughts assign "foot feeling" and "ground being felt."

Excellent! They do indeed - Can you see! See what thought is creating.
Thought itself is creating a duality. A split. There is 'me' (I) and the floor (the other thing).
Without thought intervening, from the experience itself there is just 'feeling'.

Let's look at thoughts now.

Are the thoughts 'yours'? Do they have an owner?
Do you control the thoughts in any way?
Surely if you could control the thoughts, you could choose to only have nice thoughts all the time?
Is there a 'you' that experiences the thoughts?

Xain ♥

[jeronimo]

You are right ... the discovery around the thoughts assigning foot and ground and "I" feeling has created a shift. Good one!

Are the thoughts 'yours'? Do they have an owner?

Thoughts would like to say that they are owned by the ego. They are not "me," but ego. What is ego? Can it be found? Not directly, no.

So.. the thoughts are not "mine." Do they have an owner? Not sure.

Do you control the thoughts in any way?

No. No control, certainly not of individual thoughts. Still the notion that I'm sitting to think about this answer... somehow directing the focus. Then thoughts start popping into awareness automatically.

As you said before, I notice the claimed ownership before the thoughts come. But when they come, there is no control.

Is there a 'you' that experiences the thoughts?

There seems to be something paying attention to the thoughts. When "I" try to focus on the thoughts, they disappear. Then when this focus isn't there, thoughts flow. Can't control the thoughts. Can I control the focus? This is still a stuck place.

I hear a jackhammer outside my office. Thoughts say, let's imagine where that jackhammer is and what it looks like on the street. Then thoughts come to fulfill that intention.

It seems like there is an "I" there directing the focus.

Notice that thoughts (generally) come before or after an event and claim ownership of the action or event. 'I am going to examine my experience now', 'I examined my experience and I found xxxxx' - And yet when the action actually happens, there is no seperate 'I' to be found actually doing it.

I see this, yes. And it makes perfect sense to claim ownership after an event or action. But the prior claim of ownership is bizarre and difficult to comprehend the cause-effect relationship.

Very clear that when the action actually happens, there is no separate "I" to be found doing it.

'This is my body' - What owns the body? Who or what does this body belong to?
Can an owner be found in the experience here and now?
Or is 'this is my body' just a thought?

No owner can be found. "This is my body" is just a thought.

Many Thanks. Feeling a subtle shift based on some of this looking.

Onward!

[Xain]

Thoughts would like to say that they are owned by the ego. They are not "me," but ego. What is ego? Can it be found? Not directly, no.

Is ego something that can be found? Or an idea / thought?

There seems to be something paying attention to the thoughts.

Is it something that can be found using the senses? Is it an 'object'?
Can you find anything other than an idea about what it might be? A thought about it?

Then thoughts come to fulfill that intention.
It seems like there is an "I" there directing the focus.

Ok - What it that? What is the 'I' directing the focus? Can you locate it?

Is there an 'I' here right now that control the body?
Have 'you' ever controlled this body?

Xain ♥