Guide available

[matumba]

You noticed quite clearly before that a bunch of thoughts FOLLOWED the sound and started categorizing it, trying to decide what it "was" and what it "meant". Please pay attention as this process unfolds again, repeatedly if possible.

aha - I see I have fallen into overthinking trap. This mind loves to analyze and find a reason for whatever - requires a constant reminder not to do so. It (mind) does not want looking to be easy.

Do you control which thoughts follow the sound? Or do they just happen?

Surely don't control the thoughts - but habitually associate certain thoughts with the sound. Very different when "I" actually pay attention to the sound as opposed to attention following my reaction to the sound.

Are these thoughts "you"?

They are not me, but "I" think they result in "me".

DON'T try to stop or repress thoughts.

Thanks, good advice.

[EmptySet00]

It (mind) does not want looking to be easy.

Yes. It's doing it's job well :)

You said about thoughts

They are not me, but "I" think they result in "me".

Could you clarify what you mean by that?

Do you have control over your thoughts in any way? If it seems like you do, we should keep looking at this.

Are thoughts "you"? Do you "own" them?

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,

They are not me, but "I" think they result in "me".

To clarify, this " me" is the result of attaching thoughts to an entity... Something takes ownership of thoughts and it results in the illusory me identity.
At least, that is how it seems. Sensation, thought follows sensation, identity is created by thought - or associating with thought. Man, this is tough to write and sounds strange after typing - do you get what I'm trying to convey?
Thanks,
John

[matumba]

After re reading - I didn't really address your question on thoughts - I have no control over them, but they seem to create me as in previous post.

[EmptySet00]

Hi ES,

They are not me, but "I" think they result in "me".

To clarify, this " me" is the result of attaching thoughts to an entity... Something takes ownership of thoughts and it results in the illusory me identity.

This is good. You're focusing in on your "sense of self".

The point here is NOT to get rid of it! It may stick around, go away, come back, or shift around. This can continue happening even once you've seen through the illusion.

Investigate the "sense of self". For most people, most of the time, direct experience consists of thoughts, physical sensations, emotions, and some background sense of aliveness. When something "takes ownership of thoughts", watch carefully. Does what is going on fit into one or more of the categories I listed? Or is it something else?

Describe this in some detail if possible.

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
I will try to go into the details first:
Most often, categorizing takes place and attention follows (the categorizing) and prohibits or muddies up looking. I am able to look at physical sensations and frequently see the mind grabbing them and categorizing or labeling with thought… no “me” really there, until attention goes to the thought.

When there is attention or awareness of thought (as opposed to physical sensation) at times it appears that random thoughts are just raining down out in the ether and mind grabs one (or more), that is when the thought becomes personalized and identified with “me”. Other times it is more like directed thought (like certain physical sensations are linked to specific thoughts) and then identifying “me” with that thought occurs seemingly quicker – apparently out of habit – like: Sensation – sound, mind – dogs barking make that sound, then “I” pops up with dogs barking must have treed a coon or jumped a skunk from memory of “my” past experience.

I notice a kind of split into either 1. Emotions [or feelings (same thing right?)] or 2. Thoughts.
When something triggers emotions (or maybe even thoughts of emotions?) it REALLY gets personal and the I feeling is strongest – plans get made on how to deal with the emotion (usually associated with a perceived problem or task)… Attention then is strongly attracted to “what if” plans, that is when “I” is probably strongest – the mind really wants to address that problem.

In the times where I am able to just “look”, you hit the nail on the head with “some background sense of aliveness.“ These times are more rare than I would like.

So to recap your specific questions:

For most people, most of the time, direct experience consists of thoughts, physical sensations, emotions, and some background sense of aliveness.

I'm in there with most people :)

When something "takes ownership of thoughts", watch carefully. Does what is going on fit into one or more of the categories I listed? Or is it something else?

When something takes ownership of thoughts, it does not appear to occur during physical senstation or sense of aliveness - the something that takes ownership is in there tight with the thought. Actually, maybe an epiphany while typing, it appears that whatever takes ownership of the thought is just another thought? I will have to look at this some more and get back with you tomorrow.
Thank you for your time,
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Been an interesting day of looking. Feeling a bit stuck because logically there is no me or I with these thoughts, when I actually look “I” cannot be found.

What is this “I”? It is that unknown which directs the body mind organism – whether autonomously or not – to exist. That direction is as simple as – there is hunger, “I” must eat. Would eating happen without “I”?

Stuck here – because there is confusion between “I” and just existing – where does that “I” get attached to just eating? The thought that something has instilled hunger in this body and subsequently the need to eat… “I” is the label attached to whatever is “responsible” for feeding this body. Would eating happen? If so, how would it without some means that required action and from where does that action originate?

So, I tried to look at this responsibility and was it just life existing and feeding on itself that caused the body to be fed (or whatever). Thoughts certainly want “me” to exist – something must be responsible for these feelings and thoughts that something is “me”. Is “me” a thought created in mind to give the semblance of control over life that is just happening? “I” can rationalize it, but it doesn’t hit home.

Almost feeling like 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

I have been very busy with daily work stuff and notice attention is paid to the task at hand without really being able to look as much as I’d like. Frustrating because it appears the work wouldn’t get done if “I” didn’t do it and it requires attention to detail. On the other hand, I’ve noticed that my plate (of responsibilities) doesn’t seem as full as it has in the past, despite there being more to do.

I guess I am writing this in frustration. I will keep looking.
Thanks again,
John.

[EmptySet00]

John,

This is going really well! It can be frustrating and confusing, but the frustration and confusion can be part of the process. People describe this as "waking up". The process of going from sleep to full wakefulness in the morning can include some disoriented feelings and confused thoughts. This can be similar. You're waking up from the "dream" of your previous ideas about how things work.

You're already moving on to looking at actions. So here are some pointers:

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any "I" there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Keep looking, and report what you find!

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
This looking is reminding me of practicing mindfullness as I've done in the past, but with a more direct purpose, so there are familiarities. The main difference is before LU I was trying to control or stop thinking, while now I focus more on looking at where these thoughts originate.

Is there any "I" there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Most all actions in and of themeselves appear automatic when I look at them, though most often I am caught up in the task at hand (either physical task or just planning/remembering type thinking). When I actually look at the action, it does appear automated, but the thought that seemingly directs it is where "I" get hung up. Driving is pretty automatic, but deciding to drive gets personal. The action of turning/stopping/accelerating, all automatic... but the apparent DECISION behind the action is where "I" comes up.

When "I" pay attention to most any physical action, it is automated... even thinking appears automatic (which came as a bit of a shock). But when looking (trying to look) at the decision behind these actions "I" is the apparent common thread.

Whereas I notice thought follows action, it seems to precede some actions. Stimulus arises, then thought, I believe I have seen that. However when thought comes first, the thought appears to require some action then the automation begins. When thought comes first, it looks like the thought is sticking to "me" or identifying as "me". This can't be the case - what is this "me" that believes things need doing and need a direction? Am I on the right track in looking here? I suppose I am looking at you for validation... it is very frustrating and the next thought/feeling I need to identify with is patience :)
Thanks,
John
PS = as I was reading my post, i noticed

even thinking appears automatic

. I was looking at directed thinking when I observed that as opposed to the DECISION to think. Now if thinking appears automatic, I will be looking to see if the decision is itself a thought or where that originates. I will focus on that til next time.
Thanks again,
John

[EmptySet00]

John,

You've clearly seen a lot now. How sensations, thoughts, and actions just happen without a seer, hearer, thinker, or doer. How much is automated, how much goes on "under the radar" of conscious thought, how thought sometimes follows rather than precedes an action.

The next thing to look at is decisions that feel more conscious or deliberate. You're already doing this, but I'd like to suggest an exercise.

Take two items, such as two pens of different colors. Put them in front of you. Now, pick one or the other of them up. Watch how this process unfolds. Try to catch the "moment of decision" where you move towards picking up one or the other. What precedes that impulse towards one or the other, and what follows it? Describe the process of "you making a decision" in detail. If it's not clear, repeat this several times. Watch how decisions about whether to drink coffee or tea, or juice or milk (or whatever drinks you decide between) play out. How about decisions about what to eat, or what to do next? How do they happen?

ES

[matumba]

Thanks for the exercise ES!
I have not been able to focus on looking at the moment of decision as much as I would like. I will be working on it more this eve and will be back in touch tomorrow.
John

[matumba]

Perfect timing for that exercise ES,
Very eye opening and becoming apparent that these decisions are just happening. I am going to look more and be back this eve when 'my' thoughts are collected :)

[EmptySet00]

Hi John, thanks for checking in. How are things going?

ES

[matumba]

Well nuts,
I posted a fairly detailed reply from my phone, but I suppose it crashed, so I will give a brief update. Fathers day festivities kept me from looking as much as intended, frustrated at my attempts, but am becoming more clear on how these decisions are just happening. Will give more detail in the morning. Thanks for checking in!
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Finally got back to looking with a little more focus after a hectic weekend.

How about decisions about what to eat, or what to do next? How do they happen?

The moment of decision is preceded by logical thought nearly all the time. I am an analytical person and have pretty much always been that way. Decisions are made on thoughts (basically a cost/benefit analysis) – a vast majority of the time they are under the radar, but they are still decisions.

Deciding what to eat? Thought: what is there, how much hunger, how much time, anyone else eating – and several others that factor into the decision.

If the decision is routine or mundane (like eating), the thoughts are there but not even registered (unless I am consciously looking). Newer or more significant decisions and the thoughts are the focus going into the decision –past experiences are projected forward in various possible scenarios to come up with the “correct” decision.

Take two items, such as two pens of different colors. Put them in front of you. Now, pick one or the other of them up. Watch how this process unfolds.

Immediate thought is “will the color make a difference” then a myriad of unnoticed thought – how will the writing be perceived? Am I correcting something? Will this pen write better? What about the nib? Will it require a signature? blah blah blah. These thoughts go quickly and automatically – but they seem to be based on ‘my’ personal experience(s).

That led me to ‘significant’ decisions: Should we sell our old house or rent it out? Well, you can imagine that decision takes exponentially more thought. But the thought is still based on ‘my’ personal (or projected) experience.

So – I understand that thoughts just seem to occur. But now it seems the thought is shaped by (or based on) ‘my’ experience. Apparently this is the new sticking point – ‘my’ experiences. Experience happens and then it is owned by the entity ‘me’. Thoughts, actions, senstions etc. all happen without a ‘me’, but the resulting experience associated now seems to be ‘me’.
Looking forward to your reply,
John