looking to work with a guide

[jason0604]

HI Xain

I am currently sitting down in my room looking at my laptop screen. When I look at what I believe I am I seem to be an observer that is sort of detached and commenting on everything thats happening. Someitmes I notice frustration as I wonder am I supposed to experience something different what will all this talk of gateless gates and no self. But there is this frustrating experience of a watcher that observes, evaluates experience - its there most of the time and it seems like it always will, it always has so far. When I wake in the morning its there and it never rests very much apart from the odd occasions of stillness.

Jason

[jason0604]

Hi Xain

I am in front of a laptop looking at a screen. Who do I believe I am? I am an observor that feels detached and watches and interprets my experience. Its there when I wake and it rarely isn't there.

Jason

[Xain]

I am currently sitting down in my room looking at my laptop screen.

So, you take yourself to be 'the body'. The body is 'you'. The body is in a sitting position, so therefore it is stated 'You are sitting down'.
'You' are the one that sees (the laptop screen).
Also, perhaps subtly, 'you' own the laptop. The owner of the laptop is here, and that is 'you'.

When I look at what I believe I am I seem to be an observer that is sort of detached and commenting on everything thats happening.

Ok. You mean mental commentary?
Thoughts popping up judging, stating, comparing, criticising etc?

Sometimes I notice frustration as I wonder am I supposed to experience something different what will all this talk of gateless gates and no self.

We are not looking for an experience of any sort. Simply a realisation - An understanding. That's all.
We haven't yet started looking into things. This follows next.

When I wake in the morning

Another pointer to the body, perhaps? Possibly the mind too.
Are you referring to the body starting to move, and the mind begin commenting upon waking?

Let me know your thoughts and then we'll proceed forward.
We already have plenty of stuff to look into together from what has been said so far.

Xain ♥

[jason0604]

Yes I mean mental commentary, thoughts popping up, commentary, comparison etc when I wake in the morning. I am aware of my sense experience when I wake, my body, my room and my bed etc. There is a sense of me making choices to get up and get dressed etc.

[jason0604]

Hi xain
I'm happy to work on the stuff. I await ur guidance. Hope ur well.
J

[Xain]

Hi Jason

Sorry for the small delay - Very busy yesterday.

Ok, let's kick in.

What we are going to do is examine each case where 'I', the separate self is said to appear or have involvement.
Currently, there is the belief that 'I' is / am a separate self, and that 'person' is here right now.
So let's see if it can be found.

Yes being honest I feel I make choices that is my experience, that is the story I believe.

Let's look at this one to begin with, as it appears to be one of the first that you mentioned.
Within this we can also look at 'control', that there is a controller of the body.

Try this:
Choose one of your hands. It doesn't matter which.
Now wait for a moment and when you feel you want to, raise the hand you have chosen into the air.

Do this as many times as you wish.
Each time, I want you to examine your experience and try to see if you can workout what is going on.

Normally we would say 'I chose my xxxxx' hand. So there is a chooser here right now, called 'I'.
So . . . what is this 'I' that chooses?
Examine your experience and try to find what is doing the choosing. What is making the choice?

Also, examine what is causing the arm to raise into the air.
Normally we would say 'I am raising my xxxxx hand into the air'. So what is making that happen?
What is the 'I' that is raising the hand?

Also, what is choosing to cause it to rise into the air at that particular moment?
What can be found?

Xain ♥

[jason0604]

Hi Xain

Hope you are having a good weekend.

Interesting exercise about control. At first I felt certain that I was deciding to lift my right arm and then my left. I saw how my thought of choice chose right and then I lifted my right arm. But then I inquired more deeply, also bearing in mind my previous investigations where I couldn't find I. My conclusion is that I don't know who is lifting and choosing to lift my arm. I can't be sure that it is I but that is the story that seems most likely. If its not me then who is it ? Puzzling?

Jason

[Xain]

Hi again Jason

I can't be sure that it is I but that is the story that seems most likely. If its not me then who is it ?

You need to look more deeply into this.
'Not me, then who is it' is a statement that already assumes there must be a 'who' responsible.

I am asking what 'me' is?
If I ask 'what raised the arm' and you reply 'me', then my next question is 'what is 'me'?'
Specifically, what is the 'me' that raised the arm? What 'me' can you find responsible for that action?

Of course, if you suggest 'well maybe it wasn't me', again, what is the 'me' that might not have been doing it?

At first I felt certain that I was deciding to lift my right arm and then my left.

What is this 'I' that you felt certain was doing it?

Let's look a little deeper.

There is a thought, 'I chose my right hand' (for example).
That is a thought about what is happening / what happened.
Ok, now I want you to examine your experience and FIND what this 'I' is that you are talking about.
Is there an 'I' that you can locate in any form or way that is doing the choosing.
Or is the only 'I' that you can locate, the one in the thought.

Xain ♥

[jason0604]

Moving deeper into the inquiry. I can't find the I that is making the choices. My hand moved and after thought came in and labeled it that I did it. I feel tension and frustration because it doesn't make sense. I don't know who the me is that I thought was doing it. I can't find it and this goes against everything I have always assumed.

[Xain]

Moving deeper into the inquiry. I can't find the I that is making the choices.

Good.
Interesting isn't it?
Note that at this point, we are not trying to dismiss anything. Simply realise what is going on.
The idea that there is a separate self, an 'I' making choices is fine. Its an idea. A thought.
Notice, though, that is all it is.

My hand moved and after thought came in and labeled it that I did it

Yes, this is a good observation.
A thought may come in after or before to claim 'responsibility' for the particular event.

Just as an interesting side-line, I noticed you said 'my hand'.
What makes the hand 'yours'? Who or what is the owner of the hand?

I feel tension and frustration because it doesn't make sense.
I can't find it and this goes against everything I have always assumed.

That's OK too.
I would suggest that the feelings experienced as simply as a confusion between what is held as a belief, and what has been realised through actually looking at experience - Perhaps for the first time.
If the belief is held on to quite strongly, then the more the negative feelings.

Let's look into something else.

I am currently sitting down in my room looking at my laptop screen. When I look at what I believe I am I seem to be an observer

Ok - This points to the belief that 'I' (what I believe I am) is the body.
This usually springs from the belief that the body 'performs' or is responsible for all the senses.
If something is 'felt', then it is assumed that the body (me) is feeling.
If something is 'seen', then it is assumed that the body (me) is seeing.

Let's look at seeing now.
This follows a similar path like we did before.

The words on the screen are being seen. Also, they are being read and understood.
As you identified before, a thought may say 'I see'. That is the thought/idea of what is happening.

Now examine your experience - What can be located that is doing 'seeing'?
To put it another way, if you said 'I see', then what is 'I'?

Xain ♥

[jason0604]

There is a sense of looking at the letters on the screen and making meaning out of them. Labels come up that make sense of the letters/words. There is the thought that there is an I that is understanding the meaning of the labels. There is thought that refers the labels to a sense of I and I feels like it understands the words on thscreen and the words appear to produce thoughts which the I thinks. But again when I look for this I that is seeing and making sense of the words I can't find it anywhere.

[Xain]

But again when I look for this I that is seeing and making sense of the words I can't find it anywhere.

Great work!
Again, we witness the same thing.
There is a thought - An idea that there is an 'I', a separate 'thing' if you will that is performing the function of 'seeing'. When looked for or examined closely, it is realised that there is no such thing.

Perhaps you would like to look at the other senses - Hearing - Is there an 'I' here right now that does 'hearing'?
Or is it more realistic to say 'there is hearing'?
Can a 'thing' be located that is doing the hearing. Can a separate self, an 'I' be found that 'hears'?

Smell and taste are also senses that you can approach it in the same way if wish.

'Touch' is more close to home - It may need closer attention.

Something to do:
Reach out and touch the desk / the table etc
Now is the body feeling? Does the body perform the act of feeling the table?
Or is there just 'feeling'? What can be found?

Just consider that other idea again, if you would.
What makes the body yours? Who or what is the owner.
Again, let me give you a pointer.
A thought appears saying 'This is my body' or perhaps 'I am this body'.
How can we determine if this idea is true? Is there anything more to say about it? Just a thought saying it? Is there anything you can locate or identify which identifies this body as 'you' other than a thought saying it?

Xain ♥

[jason0604]

Yes doing the exercise with hearing and touch is the same as seeing. there is sounds/felt sensations that get labeled and there is the thoughts that I am hearing/feeling. But when I look for the I that is hearing/feeling I can't find it anywhere. What makes the body mine? I can't find anything other than the thought that says its mine. There is just eperience but its not mine unless I believe the thought it is mine.The thought this body is mine is just a belief and isn't true except when I believe the thought.

[Xain]

Yes doing the exercise with hearing and touch is the same as seeing. there is sounds/felt sensations that get labeled and there is the thoughts that I am hearing/feeling. But when I look for the I that is hearing/feeling I can't find it anywhere. What makes the body mine? I can't find anything other than the thought that says its mine. There is just experience but its not mine unless I believe the thought it is mine. The thought this body is mine is just a belief and isn't true except when I believe the thought.

Yes, that's it.

Now we push even further - You say 'there are thoughts that I am hearing/feeling'.
Well, can we say 'experiencing'? You experience thoughts, yes?

Once again we look and apply the same consideration.
Is there a separate self, an 'I' that creates thoughts?
Is there a 'you' that experiences thoughts - Or are there 'just thoughts'.

Is there a 'you' that could control or stop thoughts?
If there were, surely you would only choose to have good thoughts all the time?
Do you know what the next thought that appears is going to be?

What makes the thought 'yours'? - Could it be, just like the 'body' the only thing that says 'that thought is mine' is just another thought?!

Maybe do an experiment - Think a thought - Any thought.
In normal speaking, we would say 'I had a thought'.
Now is there an 'I' that made that thought?
Is there an 'I' that witnessed that thought?
Or again, is the only thing you can find that states that the thought was witnessed by an 'I', is just another thought?

Xain ♥

[jason0604]

Yes experiencing arises and then shortly after I label these experiences mine. I can't find the I that has these thoughts other than the belief that I am having these thoughts. I don't know where thoughts come from, I creates a speculation that they come from memory or from fear or from desire etc (but I don't know) and then I label these thoughts as mine. There is only an I witnessing the thoughts if labelling creates a thought belief that they are mine other than that where is I ?
The thoughts can't be stopped once they have arisen and I have no idea what thought will next appear or arise.