Request for Moondog to guide me

[shayba]

Pete,

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Nice experiment - It is a strong stimulus for feeling that "I" am the doer!! but :

No, I can not pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice.
In direct experience, that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, just can't be found. This is just another happening, another experience.

I am already familiar with the BBC Horizon clip you mentioned. Yes, it is amazing - SIX seconds !!

Pete, I would like to discuss with you two issues regarding previous posts:

It has been seen that all actions seem 'automatic' (at least that is the closest word that can be found in this connection).
But who (or what) sees this? That which sees this can't be automatic.
I hope I am clear about this question - My answer in that no ONE sees this, but this has to be a higher level of intelligence/awareness/Consciousness or whatever you want to call IT.

And another question: what is the relationship between thoughts and emotions, they seem to feed each other.

Shay

[moondog]

Hi Shay,

Nice experiment - It is a strong stimulus for feeling that "I" am the doer!! but :
No, I can not pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice.
In direct experience, that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, just can't be found. This is just another happening, another experience.

Indeed so Shay. You got it. No chooser, no decider, no doer, no self-entity to be found, anywhere.

Moving towards the end of the looking process, an area we haven't yet looked at yet is the body, and whether the self is the body, or is in the body. From direct experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

So that's the guiding bit for this post. As far as that goes, it's not necessary for the two questions you've asked to be answered satisfactorily for the illusion of a separate self to be clearly seen through, as you've demonstrated yourself. So, what follows is more of a personal view, rather than part of what I'm principally here to do, i.e. to point you to look in direct experience, and not be seduced by thought content.

It has been seen that all actions seem 'automatic' (at least that is the closest word that can be found in this connection).But who (or what) sees this? That which sees this can't be automatic.
My answer in that no ONE sees this, but this has to be a higher level of intelligence/awareness/Consciousness or whatever you want to call IT.

Of course you're correct - no one sees this, or anything. As I guide I don't push any particular path; it's up to the client to choose one, or none. But I see all as awareness, presence, knowing, whatever you want to call it. Just as 'I' am aware that 'I' am aware, I know that all is awareness, not an object, but undivided and unbounded. And so, awareness is aware of itself. That's it. Once you've finished this process, you'll be invited to various groups, 'aftercare' and others, mainly Facebook. These are good and I recommend them. There will also be opportunities to join other FB groups that follow a more specific path if you wish. There is an emptiness group which I suppose is more Buddhist and in accord with the sunyata approach/doctrine. I'm part of Greg Goode's Direct Path group which is firmly rooted in awareness. I recommend you look at all of this more thoroughly once we're done here.

And another question:what is the relationship between thoughts and emotions, they seem to feed each other.

My take on this is that when various sensations arise in the body, thoughts can attach to them, giving rise sometimes to strong feelings and emotions that can feel overwhelming. This all tends to be habitual, based on the illusion that there is a self-entity to protect. However, if these are not resisted, but accepted and welcomed, and it recognised that they are merely bodily sensations, with thoughts attached, and thoughts are known for what they are, much suffering is avoided.

I hope all that has helped, Shay.

Pete x

[shayba]

Pete,

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

No. In direct experience sensations and thoughts are experienced by no-one, and NO BODY !! In experience, there is no boundary between the body and what's not the body. There is no IN and OUT.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes. With eyes closed it is seen very clearly that all sensations are HERE. Coming and going from nowhere.

Pete, your answers to my other questions were very helpful ! Thank you for taking the time and your willingness to stretch the limits of this enquiry.

I realize that crossing the gate is just the beginning - so much more ahead!! That's exciting, because I love this work...And just like the old saying from the first man on the moon, sometimes a small step is a big one at the same time :)

So I am going to take one step at a time, just have to listen to my heart to know which way to go. "I" trust my heart and the ringing bells. That's how "I" got here, and how "I" chose you as my guide.

Feeling ready to rap it up...
Shay

[moondog]

Hi Shay,

I realize that crossing the gate is just the beginning - so much more ahead!! That's exciting, because I love this work...And just like the old saying from the first man on the moon, sometimes a small step is a big one at the same time :)
So I am going to take one step at a time, just have to listen to my heart to know which way to go. "I" trust my heart and the ringing bells. That's how "I" got here, and how "I" chose you as my guide.

You've crossed it, that's for sure. And it's wonderful that you're enjoying this so much. So am I.

So, time for final questions Shay. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[shayba]

Pete,

Here we go, this is it:

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, No, And No.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self starts with a thought, the "I" thought. This thought is added to any experience - Be it perceptions, Thoughts, actions, choices ,feelings or being. Until it is seen through (by enquiry and investigation or an act of "grace"), this thought sticks like Velcro to all experiences and thus creating an imagined separation bewtween "I" , "Me" and the world outside of "Me". Suddenly there is "Me" and "You", "here" and "there", an experiencer that experiences, a perceiver and perceived and so on.
This is the birth of duality.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Feels amazing, mind blowing. Everything is the same and dramatically different at the same time !! It's the difference between feeling closed in a small bowling ball - looking out from peepholes to an intimidating world, and becoming the world, ever-changing , immense, strikingly beautiful. Very tough to explain in words, but that wasn't bad was it?? :)

"I" feel like an empty infinite container, ready and willing to become ANY experience. Now I finally understand what the sages meant when they said they were both empty and full at the same time !! (Pete, I wrote this to you before - but repeated it here for other guides to review).

This feels like finding a treasure - "I" just know this is what I was looking for....

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last straw was when it was realized that "I" can't take credit for reducing thoughts in meditation. But the dominant push was looking in Direct experience. I also read the Gatecrashers Book, and installed the pointers App about a week before I asked Pete to guide me (only when I felt I was on fire and just had to know...).

The preparation was very important for "ME".

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control either. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from recent experience.

Decisions happen. Intentions happen. Free will is not free at all over here !! No choice or control.

Examples - The Rolling Stones are playing here today (actually, right now!!):

The illusion : "I" wanted/intended to go to the show. In Reality - That's a thought arising "wanting/intending to go to the show" plus the added notorious "I" thought.

The illusion :"I" decided not to go because it was too hot. In Reality -The decision happened and the "I" thought took credit for the decision.

The illusion :"I" chose to eat cake over Ice Cream for desert. In Reality - Choosing cake happened and the "I" thought took credit for the choice.

The illusion :"My" right hand is controling the mouse. In Reality - Right hand is moving the mouse, but no ONE is in control !! It just happens...

Anything to add?

No, only to REDUCE (the "I" thought !!)

Deep gratitude to Ilona, Elena, Pete and this wonderful community. Is this real?!

Shay

[moondog]

Hi Shay,

Thank you for your splendid answers to the questions. I'm really just so pleased that you've seen so clearly through the illusion of a separate self.

I've asked the guides to have a look at this thread and I'll let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two, or it can be quicker. No worries.

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi Shay,

I'm happy to say that the guides are satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self and they have no queries.

Thanks for your Facebook details. I've been in touch with LU admin to get you 'turned blue' and they will be contact you with invitations to the various groups etc.

It's been very enjoyable guiding you, particularly when your full-blown seeing happened.

Remember that you can always get in touch if you need to discuss anything.

Go well Shay

Love,

Pete

Ps. One of the guides wondered whether you'd ever watched the film Waking Life. If not, he thinks you'll probably enjoy it, as it echoes some of what you wrote in this thread.

[moondog]

Shay,

Please ignore the ps in the previous post - it just drifted in from another thread.

Pete