will you guide me please Ilona?

[moondog]

Hi blue,

And who or what is doing the trying, or is brought into the present, or was pinned down? Can you find anything in direct experience

As I dwell on these questions whilst looking, I can't make sense of what I said and don't now understand the relationship between trying, being brought into the present and being pinned down. A not knowing. So I carried on looking. At moments I felt my heart swell, then some sadness.

Ok blue, that's clearer. But, so that we're absolutely clear here, could you find anything, any entity, in direct experience, that was either doing or experiencing any of these things?

Ok, on a more general note, I reckon this is just the right point early on in this process to stop, take a deep breath and sharpen the focus a bit. I think you're doing well and I've been impressed by your commitment and input, but I don't want you to become distracted.

As I've been at pains to stress, this is all about looking for any evidence of 'you', a separate self entity in 'your' direct experience, i.e. in seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling (both tactile and kinaesthetic). As I've also stressed, this is not about what thoughts 'tell you'. Nor is it about what feelings (which are really just a sort of amalgamation of bodily feelings and thoughts) arise. I noticed when I was being guided, and in perhaps the majority of people that I've guided since then, that at this point in the enquiry when the ego, the illusion of self, is being closely scrutinised in direct experience, the mind spews forth all sorts of thoughts and a whole range of feelings arise, all in an apparent attempt by the ego to distract and thwart this looking at what is really happening.

To re-quote myself from an earlier post, the whole of this investigation centres around looking in direct experience to see if a self-entity can be found anywhere there. This is accompanied by seeing that it is in thoughts and only in thoughts that 'I' ever 'occurs' and that 'I' doesn't actually occur there either because thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.

This is fundamentally important to this process. So, bearing this fully in mind, please have another look at the exercises on sense experiencing. There's no need to describe any thoughts or feelings that arise alongside your experience when looking, listening etc. They are imply not relevant to what you need to do to see that there's no self.

Just look in a relaxed natural manner at what your raw, unmediated experience is. For clarity, I'll just restate the exercises again.

When you look at an object, say, an orange, a book, a tree, a lamp, whatever, in direct experience, can you find a separate entity, an 'I', that is doing the seeing? If so, please describe it, and explain what it does, how it functions. Also, can you find any separation, any boundary between the seeing and the object being seen, or do seeing and the object appear to be as one?

Now, do exactly the same with hearing, perhaps birdsong, traffic sounds, rain falling, it doesn't matter. Can you find a separate hearer? If so, please describe etc. as for seeing. Again, can you find any discernible separation between hearing the sound and the sound itself?

Please do just the same for smelling, tasting and tactile feelings.

Pete

[blueg]

Dear Pete

This is just a quick check in and I've quickly read through your words and re-focussing. I look forward to taking some time over your response and doing the exercises again now tomorrow evening. I have just got back from a long drive - (I work late on Monday evenings a couple of times a month and my plans to put time aside this afternoon were thwarted with the server being down).

until tomorrow
blue

[moondog]

Hi blue,

No problem, I know how that is!

Thanks for letting me know.

Look forward to hearing from you later today.

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

I'm back! I'm feeling more relaxed in the process as well as keener. Thanks for what you've written and re-iterated.

Ok blue, that's clearer. But, so that we're absolutely clear here, could you find anything, any entity, in direct experience, that was either doing or experiencing any of these things?

I can't find a tryer or a doer.

When you look at an object, say, an orange, a book, a tree, a lamp, whatever, in direct experience, can you find a separate entity, an 'I', that is doing the seeing? If so, please describe it, and explain what it does, how it functions. Also, can you find any separation, any boundary between the seeing and the object being seen, or do seeing and the object appear to be as one?

can't do it, can't do it, can't do it, can't do it, can't do it, can't do it.

Okay, I just thought I would get that out then I can get on with the exercises.

Initially as I look at the lamp 'I' seems to be framing and holding the lamp in my vision. In experience really this is an intensity of sensation around my eyes. As I continue to look I notice as you pointed out waves of intensity of bodily tactile sensations and feelings as well as thoughts that are planning what I will say to you and describe. Noticing this I re-focussed on just looking again. Over time I notice that the lamp seems to be sort of lit or present from its own side, rather than me over here and the lamp over there. This feels more like the lamp being seen rather than me looking. So looking at your words that seems to be like the seeing and the lamp being present together. As I continued looking light seemed to be playing some tricks around the lamp, like it almost went into negative like a black and white film, then back again.

Now, do exactly the same with hearing, perhaps birdsong, traffic sounds, rain falling, it doesn't matter. Can you find a separate hearer? If so, please describe etc. as for seeing. Again, can you find any discernible separation between hearing the sound and the sound itself?

I found it very different with hearing, as I started to attend I got a big ME! thought and a finger pointing to my chest. For a while I struggled a bit feeling in my head and trying to reach out to sustain hearing the sound. I took a break and went back to the exercise and initially felt like an animal who's ears are twitching to locate the sound, then 'I' who was trying to hear seemed to melt and the sound was again sort of present from its own side without the need of me.

Now, do exactly the same with hearing, perhaps birdsong, traffic sounds, rain falling, it doesn't matter. Can you find a separate hearer? If so, please describe etc. as for seeing. Again, can you find any discernible separation between hearing the sound and the sound itself?

Feeling like I couldn't smell much I got a tangerine and held it to my nose – it took a while for me to tune into my sense of smell. Then as I stayed with it, I didn't need to fruit, I was aware of a constant smell. There were moments when there seemed to be just the faint smell around me, but then back to quite a strong physical sense of my body taking in the physical scent. At one point the light changed in my room and I jolted with some fear.

It's got late already. Until tomorrow.
best wishes
blue

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Ok blue, that's clearer. But, so that we're absolutely clear here, could you find anything, any entity, in direct experience, that was either doing or experiencing any of these things?

I can't find a tryer or a doer.

Great. That's nice and clear and simple:)

Thanks for your descriptions of your experience with the various sense arisings. I appreciate the effort that you are putting in with this.

I re-focussed on just looking again. Over time I notice that the lamp seems to be sort of lit or present from its own side, rather than me over here and the lamp over there. This feels more like the lamp being seen rather than me looking. So looking at your words that seems to be like the seeing and the lamp being present together. As I continued looking light seemed to be playing some tricks around the lamp, like it almost went into negative like a black and white film, then back again.

You say that it feels more like the lamp being seen rather than you looking, and that this seems to be like the seeing and the lamp are present together. I need you to be more definite. There's no room for doubt or ambiguity in this looking. In direct experience there's just what's experienced. It's either present or it's not. There are no in-betweens. It's only thought that ever says different.

I want simple, straightforward statements.

So, first of all just with seeing, please simply say whether, when looking, 'you' are aware of any separate seer doing the seeing that is separate from the seeing. If there is, describe it to me. Can you find any boundaries at all in experiencing seeing?

Now, with each of the other senses, just looking at each separately, apply exactly the same questions as for seeing to each. No need to spend a great deal of time on these, or expend effort. It's simply a matter of looking in a natural way at 'your' experience to see what's 'there', and whether there's really any 'I/me/mine', save in thoughts. Anything else is surplus to requirements.

Ignoring what your thoughts and feelings are telling you, please just simply say whether 'you' have been able to find a separate self at all in direct experience in any of these sense arisings

You're doing fine blue. Just keep that relaxed, natural approach. Once I'm absolutely clear about what you are seeing, hearing etc. (and not seeing, hearing etc!), we'll move on to the next area to see if there's a separate you lurking there.

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

You say that it feels more like the lamp being seen rather than you looking, and that this seems to be like the seeing and the lamp are present together. I need you to be more definite. There's no room for doubt or ambiguity in this looking. In direct experience there's just what's experienced. It's either present or it's not. There are no in-betweens. It's only thought that ever says different.

Yes, that's good, there wasn't really doubt about the lamp being present from its own side. More my 'self' being reticent and doubting, which is a familiar approach it can take.

So, first of all just with seeing, please simply say whether, when looking, 'you' are aware of any separate seer doing the seeing that is separate from the seeing. If there is, describe it to me. Can you find any boundaries at all in experiencing seeing?

No, there's just seeing and the lamp.

Ignoring what your thoughts and feelings are telling you, please just simply say whether 'you' have been able to find a separate self at all in direct experience in any of these sense arising.

hearing: just hearing

taste: can't find a me that's separate from tasting

smell: 'I''m not choosing to smell, there's just smelling

touch: touching has a life of its own, so no.

All that complexity to wade through to get to the simplicty.

many thanks
bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Yes, that's good, there wasn't really doubt about the lamp being present from its own side. More my 'self' being reticent and doubting, which is a familiar approach it can take.

Good, I didn't think that there was any doubt, and that it was really just your way of expressing what you'd seen, but I just needed to be sure is all.

Ignoring what your thoughts and feelings are telling you, please just simply say whether 'you' have been able to find a separate self at all in direct experience in any of these sense arising.

No, there's just seeing and the lamp.
hearing: just hearing
taste: can't find a me that's separate from tasting,
smell: 'I''m not choosing to smell, there's just smelling, touch:
touching has a life of its own, so no.
All that complexity to wade through to get to the simplicity.

Excellent. You got there. And you're right, you just needed to cut through all that complexity - entirely generated by thought - to see the simplicity of it all. And it was there all the time!

Just to round this bit off, can you say a little more about what you mean by the lamp being present from its own side, and there's just seeing and the lamp? In direct experience, are you aware of there being these two distinct sides? If so, how does the division between the two sides appear? And what's on each side of this boundary? If there's no boundary to be seen, isn't there just seeing/experiencing, without limits?

So, let's move on to looking at thoughts and thinking, to see if you can find a separate self there.

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Just brief answers for each should be fine.

Pete

[blueg]

Thanks Pete

You probably won't see this until I've responded more fully, but just a quick note to say that as I'm about to go out I'll respond in the morning instead of this evening.

bluex

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

After my last posting the evening before last I had quite a sleepless night and with some emotional turbulence today. Feeling a bit tender.

Just to round this bit off, can you say a little more about what you mean by the lamp being present from its own side, and there's just seeing and the lamp? In direct experience, are you aware of there being these two distinct sides? If so, how does the division between the two sides appear? And what's on each side of this boundary? If there's no boundary to be seen, isn't there just seeing/experiencing, without limits?

Yes, just seeing. I was describing the shift I think from seeing it as separate to there being presence.

Where do thoughts come from?

I don't know, they just appear, like words on a screen, or credits at the end of a film.

Are you in control of them?

I can hold onto a phrase like 'are you in control of them' so it lingers for a while. Then it goes, I can look at it again and bring it back.

Can you stop a thought from coming?

no

Can you stop it in the middle?

no

Do you know what the next thought will be?

no. Some are familiar themes, but no.

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

There's a struggle going on here to see because some of the 'I' thoughts have a big emotional impact. Unlike a table. I think not but I'm going to have to have another go here.

Can a thought think?

I'm not sure yet what happens when a thought triggers a painful feeling and then proliferates and before I know it I'm having an imaginary conversation with someone (as just happened).

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

After my last posting the evening before last I had quite a sleepless night and with some emotional turbulence today. Feeling a bit tender.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Various kinds of disturbances, like interrupted sleep patterns, seem to happen to most people who are seeing into and through the illusion of having a separate self. It's part of the process, a sign of progress, and it will pass.

Yes, just seeing. I was describing the shift I think from seeing it as separate to there being presence.

Great. Good to hear that.

Where do thoughts come from?

I don't know, they just appear, like words on a screen, or credits at the end of a film.

They do don't they? Unbidden. As if from nowhere. Amazing isn't it?

I can hold onto a phrase like 'are you in control of them' so it lingers for a while. Then it goes, I can look at it again and bring it back.

Yes, but can you find anything in direct experience that actually does this holding on to a phrase? If so, please describe it. What decides how long it lingers, when it should go and whether and when it should come back? In each case, isn't that just another thought telling 'you' that and 'taking the credit'? And, as you've already said, thoughts just appear.

Can you stop a thought from coming? Can you stop it in the middle? Do you know what the next thought will be?

no, no, and no, some are familiar themes, but no.(respectively)

So, you can clearly see in direct experience that there's no self-entity 'doing' any of these things. Splendid.

There's a struggle going on here to see because some of the 'I' thoughts have a big emotional impact. Unlike a table. I think not but I'm going to have to have another go here.

That's completely fine.

Can you see in direct experience that sometimes feelings arise in the body that appear to combine with some of these I-thoughts, producing 'a big emotional impact'? I agree that a table doesn't have that effect (unless something pretty weird's going on).

Can a thought think?

I'm not sure yet what happens when a thought triggers a painful feeling and then proliferates and before I know it I'm having an imaginary conversation with someone (as just happened).

This is like the I-thought 'triggering' the big emotional impact that we've both referred to above isn't it? Thoughts and feelings/emotions (thoughts seemingly combined with various bodily feelings) do appear to give rise to further thoughts, resulting in a whole 'chain' of thoughts.

Can you see in direct experience however that, at any particular time, in each moment, now, there is only one thought arising? Although the content of that thought may well 'refer' to other, earlier thoughts, which are gone, in the past, giving the impression of a chain of thoughts.
In direct experience, can you find any evidence of a thought actually thinking, or indeed doing anything at all, apart from simply being a message, i.e. just concepts?

I'm really enjoying this process of pointing you where to look blue. How is it going for you so far?

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

A morning post again today, as it's the weekend.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Various kinds of disturbances, like interrupted sleep patterns, seem to happen to most people who are seeing into and through the illusion of having a separate self. It's part of the process, a sign of progress, and it will pass.

Your response touched me deeply.

Yes, but can you find anything in direct experience that actually does this holding on to a phrase? If so, please describe it. What decides how long it lingers, when it should go and whether and when it should come back? In each case, isn't that just another thought telling 'you' that and 'taking the credit'? And, as you've already said, thoughts just appear.

I can see the 'I'-thoughts arising like any other thought does. I've also just seen that I have a belief that I am choosing to reflect like now on this process. Can it be that this is just what is happening?

Can you see in direct experience that sometimes feelings arise in the body that appear to combine with some of these I-thoughts, producing 'a big emotional impact'

Yes, particularly 'bad' feelings that the 'I'-thoughts like to possess with negative stories about 'me', which I then in turn feel worse about.

Can you see in direct experience however that, at any particular time, in each moment, now, there is only one thought arising? Although the content of that thought may well 'refer' to other, earlier thoughts, which are gone, in the past, giving the impression of a chain of thoughts.
In direct experience, can you find any evidence of a thought actually thinking, or indeed doing anything at all, apart from simply being a message, i.e. just concepts?

You asking the question makes me see that I have believed the thoughts think, that they are true which is why I believe them. So I'm seeing them differently, in that way. (hem, hem of course I've known this intellectually, but I've still believed them all the same)

I'm really enjoying this process of pointing you where to look blue. How is it going for you so far?

I feel that I've relaxed somewhat about trying to get it right, and around allowing myself to receive and accept the support and time you are giving me. I'm deepening into the reflections, beginning to see where my beliefs lie and feel moved by the process. I like the daily rhythm.

With appreciation
bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

I can see the 'I'-thoughts arising like any other thought does. I've also just seen that I have a belief that I am choosing to reflect like now on this process. Can it be that this is just what is happening?

So, can you see that, as I-thoughts are seen to arise just like any other thoughts, as if from nowhere and unbidden, there's really no you to have a belief, no you to see that you have a belief, no you to choose to reflect, and no you to reflect? Isn't there just your direct experience, i.e. awareness of what is right now, often accompanied by thoughts of past or future, also right now?

Can you see in direct experience that sometimes feelings arise in the body that appear to combine with some of these I-thoughts, producing 'a big emotional impact'

Yes, particularly 'bad' feelings that the 'I'-thoughts like to possess with negative stories about 'me', which I then in turn feel worse about.

That's right. But now you can see that when this seems to make 'you' feel worse because of these negative stories, it's just more thoughts and feelings, but no you really to feel worse. The more you recognise these thoughts and feelings for what they truly are, the less potency and seductive power they have.

You asking the question makes me see that I have believed the thoughts think, that they are true which is why I believe them. So I'm seeing them differently, in that way. (hem, hem of course I've known this intellectually, but I've still believed them all the same)

Good, and that shows that you're aware of what I've just been saying above.

I feel that I've relaxed somewhat about trying to get it right, and around allowing myself to receive and accept the support and time you are giving me. I'm deepening into the reflections, beginning to see where my beliefs lie and feel moved by the process. I like the daily rhythm.

Great. Being relaxed and even a bit playful with all this often really helps, and you certainly seem to have realised that.

So, let's move on to looking at whether a separate self can be detected anywhere in actions, in doing and controlling:

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.'

Are all actions automatic?

Pete

[blueg]

Hiya Pete

So, can you see that, as I-thoughts are seen to arise just like any other thoughts, as if from nowhere and unbidden, there's really no you to have a belief, no you to see that you have a belief, no you to choose to reflect, and no you to reflect? Isn't there just your direct experience, i.e. awareness of what is right now, often accompanied by thoughts of past or future, also right now?

Yes, I can see that my 'beliefs' are just more thoughts. That's a relief.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

Yep I'm barely aware of walking particularly when doing other things at the same time.

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff. Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

I've just done some cleaning and initially as I got up after reading these questions I felt a strong notion – I guess it was a thought - of 'I' being the one who 'chooses' to do things. Like, 'right I'm going to get up now and clean the kitchen'. However once I got going I noticed all the multitude of small actions and what I thought would be 'decisions' just happening, like closing the fridge door. Some actions seem to arise in response to seeing, though I'm not sure yet.

Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.

I haven't noticed that, I noticed more the 'I'm going to do that'. Although sometimes I know in the evenings I have a habit a making an inventory of what 'I've' done.

Are all actions automatic?

I can see that loads and loads are, I'm going to keep vigil during the day particularly around the idea that 'I choose'.

bluex

[moondog]

Hi blue,

Yes, I can see that my 'beliefs' are just more thoughts. That's a relief.

Yes, when that's actually seen, it's a real weight off.

Yep I'm barely aware of walking particularly when doing other things at the same time.

And can you see in direct experience that these 'other things' that are being done at the same time are also just happening without any doer?

I've just done some cleaning and initially as I got up after reading these questions I felt a strong notion – I guess it was a thought - of 'I' being the one who 'chooses' to do things. Like, 'right I'm going to get up now and clean the kitchen'. However once I got going I noticed all the multitude of small actions and what I thought would be 'decisions' just happening, like closing the fridge door. Some actions seem to arise in response to seeing, though I'm not sure yet.

Great, that sounds like you're seeing that there's no controller at the helm making things happen.

Looking in direct experience, can you find any actions that arise in response to seeing? If so, please describe what happens and how it happens.

Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.

I haven't noticed that, I noticed more the 'I'm going to do that'.

Based solely on direct experience, can you see that, whether thought says that 'you' are doing a particular thing before, during or afterwards, it's just thinking, taking credit on 'your' behalf (as it habitually does) for something it can have no influence on, or real connection with, whatsoever? It's all just smoke and mirrors.

I can see that loads and loads are, I'm going to keep vigil during the day particularly around the idea that 'I choose'.

Cool. Let me know if you've found any actions that aren't as if automatic.

Pete x

[blueg]

hiya Pete

Just a quick note to say that I may not get chance to reply now until tomorrow (Monday) evening.

until then
bluex