request to be guided by Smudge

[smudge]

Great stuff, you are clearly well along the way,

There is reactivity when there is no direct experience.

Really? Look again. Do stories stop when self is seen as a character in a story? When in DE what happens to thoughts, Look like the sultana at thoughts.
Reactivity is a word that seems to hold a story and a bunch of sensations, keep looking at the ingredients in the next example when this happens like a fascinating display, be specific next time, what is the story, lets hear it...stories are stories, lets hear the detail including the main character?

Love Smudge

[WannaB]

Do stories stop when self is seen as a character in a story?

The stories seem to stop when there is direct experience of body and feelings, when there is knowing of there not being anyone in control, thinking thoughts, acting in story.

When in DE what happens to thoughts, Look like the sultana at thoughts.

Thoughts are seen as not having substance. There seems to be some disentanglement from thoughts.

Reactivity is a word that seems to hold a story and a bunch of sensations, keep looking at the ingredients in the next example when this happens like a fascinating display, be specific next time, what is the story, lets hear it...stories are stories, lets hear the detail including the main character?

Yes, indeed the word holds a story and a bundle of sensations. Just looking for a moment of reactivity becomes a problem because there is only feeling and thoughts and stories, and 'I' 'know' there isn't somebody that is reactive.
Only I don't always remember that.
The story in my mind about wanting to be less reactive, is specifically connected to being in a team meeting and then getting tight and tense, which then has a negative influence on myself and others in the meeting.
I can see in retrospect that I have been reactive: so what has happened is that I have been getting frustrated and that has come out in speech, which I then regret. This is what I would like to see changed, but I also see there is a not wanting to have the experience in place.

With the instruction in mind of watching the display of reactivity, when I start to what I would call react, the experience changes when the instruction comes up. The experience has less chance to turn into what I would label to be reactivity.
Eg: my partner and I are preparing the house for the immanent arrival of guests. 30 Mins before the guests are due to arrive, he starts doing something I find isn't necessary at all. I am already a bit tense, I notice him starting his activity, I feel irritation coming up, then the instruction of looking at the display of reactivity comes up, and the experience changes into noticing tenseness, anxiety, the thought 'but it is important to him' comes up, tenderness, relaxation and then continuing what I was doing, with the irritation and tenseness having dissolved.

[smudge]

'I' 'know' there isn't somebody that is reactive.

This story seems to be one that is most believed. A a story about a wannaB that knows she isn't real! Look deeply at this story and see it's storyness too.

Only I don't always remember that.

When the illusion of self is not remembered does this mean the I is real again at these times? You might watch a tv programme and are enthralled one minute and think its real and then remember its only a tv programme the next minute. Does this make the tv programme ultimately any different than a tv programme..a story?

so what has happened is that I have been getting frustrated and that has come out in speech, which I then regret

Could it have been any different, if so how? we are probably in the area of free will now...go for it.

x

[WannaB]

This story seems to be one that is most believed. A a story about a wannaB that knows she isn't real! Look deeply at this story and see it's storyness too.

Ha,ha. I typed '[/story]'. Hope that doesn't mess the system up. Yes, really happy with that one. Stepping out of a theoretical framework feels profoundly refreshing.

When the illusion of self is not remembered does this mean the I is real again at these times?

No, it doesn't. Mechanisms of I seem to be at work, patterns, but that again is a retrospective interpretation, ie a story. It doesn't seem to matter whether there was an I or no I.

You might watch a tv programme and are enthralled one minute and think its real and then remember its only a tv programme the next minute. Does this make the tv programme ultimately any different than a tv programme..a story?

This makes perfect sense.

Could it have been any different, if so how? we are probably in the area of free will now...go for it.

Again, it doesn't seem to matter. Experience arose in a situation. There was or there wasn't direct experience, arising spontaneously. There can be interpretation in retrospect, but that again is a story. A bit like deciding how to bury the corpse.

Thanks so much. It's really interesting.

[smudge]

This makes perfect sense.

Whats important is that it is seen in DE in it's utter simplicity, even a glimpse of the truth of I being nothing more than a character in a story is enough.

Lets have a look at boundaries a bit, please actually DO this..DE only..

carry out the following experiment.

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

What do you find?

Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

[WannaB]

Ok.
I didn't see any colours, shapes or whatsoever. I could imagine it, but didn't actually see it.
On the two index fingers pointing: shapes, colours, light reflection, movement outside, nothing inside.

[smudge]

So whats it like to look 180 degree's and find 'nothing in DE'? scary, liberating, exciting, boring????

[WannaB]

It's simple and clear.

[smudge]

OK, cool!
So seeing the display of thoughts, sensations, forms..arising and dissolving from nowhere is happening and its simple and clear.....so, now notice how things happen. Is there a chooser, how does choosing happen. Notice simple examples, like choosing a blue or black pen or what direction to turn or thinking a less reactive thought!.. and report back from DE.

xx

[WannaB]

Hi again,

Is there a chooser, how does choosing happen.

The choice just happens. At some point a choice or direction of action manifests, is made, out of nowhere.

xWannaB

[smudge]

Please be specific to your actual DE, details would be great.

[WannaB]

Ok, I have made coffee and the memory comes up to choose something to do this exercise with, a pang of hunger, the desire to eat something, a flash of an image of a box with dried fruit which contains figs, reaching out to the box, picking a dried fig and munching it.

[smudge]

Thanks. What part does thought have in choices? Can a thought do anything, have a look. X


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[WannaB]

I am in the bath and the thought comes up to find a situation to do this exercise. There's a bottle of body lotion on the shelf, the choice could be between lotion A or B which is in a toilet bag. I notice the image of A brings up imagined thoughts of scent and feel, the imagined tube B brings up another imagined scent and imagines slightly greasy feel, A brings up the story: this is familiar and comfortable, B less so. The choice should go to A, but in an attempt to experiment, the choice falls on B.
later:
B is not where I thought it was, so A is used after all. But the thoughts about A had the strongest pull all along.

Mostly choices appear to be habits. Seeing an object eg brings the memory of the use of that object, brings about the actual use of the object. Memories of intention can come up, so the object is or is not used. Ie chocolate buttons on the table, thought of eating them, memory of intention not to eat sugar, no chocolate buttons are eaten.

[smudge]

So can a thought DO anything?


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