Are you ready?

[Moonlight]

So, John, please look again, and tell me what's left. How would you define it?

Do you still have a 'self' :)?

[tubameister]

I'm starting to think it can't be described through thought! I could try to express why, but I can't wrap words around it yet... It just is! It's both personal and impersonal in that, well, it's you, but it doesn't belong to anyone! When you take all the thoughts out of the picture, it's not a 'self', it's not me, it's not consciousness, it just is.

This feels like you're pushing me right up to where meditation would've taken me if I had a regular routine!

[Moonlight]

Further, John, further.

Yes, it's not you, it's not anyone, no ownership at all without thoughts.

But then, what is 'you'? Do you exist, if so, tell me everything about you. Please write as much as you can, John, so I have an idea of where you're at :).

Tell me about thoughts. Do they exist? where do they come from?

[tubameister]

Thoughts are entirely physical. They're deterministic. There's no 'free will'. Thoughts are just responses to stimuli. Though the past is written and the future is set, it's still always now.

'You' watches these thoughts, and though you are these thoughts, you aren't these thoughts. Though you consist of these thoughts, the thoughts are not you. 'You' is both personal and impersonal. Though it is you, nothing but thoughts try to lay claim to 'you'. 'You' most certainly exist. 'You' might even be the only thing that's real! (my personal definition of real is very shaky tbh) 'You' wouldn't tell yourself anything without thoughts.

Language is becoming almost useless at this point, hehe

Where to from here, though? I feel like I understand most of this so far, but I have no idea how it could become just an illusion when I've just put so much effort into describing how 'you' are the only real thing in existence!

[Moonlight]

John, can you explain what you mean when you say thoughts are deterministic? I don't think I get this word.

Though the past is written and the future is set, it's still always now.

Please explain this more. What is the past and the future? Are they still there if there is no thought about them? A thought occurring right now, in the present.

When you take all the thoughts out of the picture, it's not a 'self', it's not me, it's not consciousness, it just is.

That's what you said a post earlier. Now you're saying "you" is all there is. Which is correct? What makes everything into a "you"? Except more thoughts! the mind wants to hold onto some identity. The "I" thought comes up to grab at life. If it cant be a separate person, well, then, the mind comes up with the thought " I must be everything". Another untrue thought...

Investigate this please.

[Moonlight]

John, the "I am everything" is sometimes the last stronghold of the mind to grab onto something. See if you can find the grabbing, and let go. Fall.

[tubameister]

John, can you explain what you mean when you say thoughts are deterministic? I don't think I get this word.

To me, it just means that the thoughts a brain has are determined entirely by the stimuli it receives, which are all entirely physical. Same thing as what I've been saying all along, really. This dictionary definition does it justice, too:

noun Philosophy
The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

Though I for one do not believe determinism implies that individual human beings cannot be held morally responsible for their actions. :P

Though the past is written and the future is set, it's still always now.

Please explain this more. What is the past and the future? Are they still there if there is no thought about them? A thought occurring right now, in the present.

Past and future are both illusory, now is all there is. Past is stored in memories, and the future is prematurely created through anticipation. If there's no thought about past and future, then all there is is now. But if there is thought about past and future, then those thoughts are in the now, too! There's no escaping it!

I will get to that last part soon.

[tubameister]

When you take all the thoughts out of the picture, it's not a 'self', it's not me, it's not consciousness, it just is.

That's what you said a post earlier. Now you're saying "you" is all there is. Which is correct? What makes everything into a "you"? Except more thoughts! the mind wants to hold onto some identity. The "I" thought comes up to grab at life. If it cant be a separate person, well, then, the mind comes up with the thought " I must be everything". Another untrue thought...

Investigate this please.

In all that 'you' talk, I said

Though it is you, nothing but thoughts try to lay claim to 'you'.

That 'is' is the same as the 'it' in

When you take all the thoughts out of the picture, it's not a 'self', it's not me, it's not consciousness, it just is.

'It' is 'You'. I just use 'you' when I have to describe this thing with language, because to be honest, language is useless when you really try to describe it, since that's all thoughts, and thoughts aren't real… I keep staring at this line of thought and it just keeps cementing itself!

It just is. It is real. And it is everything in the sense that it is the only real thing.

But you say,

John, the "I am everything" is sometimes the last stronghold of the mind to grab onto something. See if you can find the grabbing, and let go. Fall.

Well, what's telling me that I'm everything? Thoughts, which aren't real, and so I can't know if I'm everything. The only thing left to know is that I just am, and even that's just another thing to know!

but does that work?

. . .

[tubameister]

I feel like this:



~Ram Dass

[Moonlight]

Doing brilliantly John. You're staring right at it. All you need to do is jump into the unknown.

Language IS useless to try and describe it, but it's all we have, so on we go :)

So, "It just is. It is real. And it is everything in the sense that it is the only real thing." Yes. "It" is just life happening, experiencing happening.

The only thing left to know is that I just am, and even that's just another thing to know!

What if if it's not "I am" but just "am-ness", existence. What if the "I" just doesn't exist? Where in the "it" do you find the "I"? You had also, right at the beginning, said:

From this perspective, it looks like 'self' is merely a label I slapped on a process (just like 'experiencing' is)

So, find the I in "I am".... without the story of the I.

[tubameister]

You know that concept 'mu' I posted about a while back? It feels like everything is just mu-ing away, and I can't stop smiling about it! XD

I reread this whole thread, and the progression is pretty awesome.

I am. / It just is.

am-ness / is-ness

Pure experience.

don't even need the language, go experience it for yourself! You couldn't not if you tried!

[Moonlight]

Awesome, John! I think you've seen it!

I"m just a little unsure when you say "I am/ It just is". I think you're just using these words to explain the unexplainable. But please answer these two questions so we can see if there's residual identification:

1. Can you please tell me if you exist, in any shape or form?

2. What is a self, and how does it work?

PLease explain in detail.

Enjoy!

[tubameister]

Ah, I just wanted to show a snippet of the progression I've made, from It just is, to is-ness, to pure experience, to ________, haha!

1. I do not exist, in any shape or form. When walking through my house at 3am, scaredness happens, but there's no one to be scared! Stress, joy, pleasure, pain, all happening, but there's no one there to be stressed, joyful, pleasured, or pained. Now, writing is happening, but no one's doing the writing, it's just happening. Decisions are being made, but no one's making the decisions. Thoughts are being thought, but there's no one there to think the thoughts. There never was.

2. The self is an illusion! :D The illusion works so well because the instance thinking thinks about the self it instinctively slaps a label on it when it needs none, and then it assumes the self is real because it seems to be a thing with a label, when in fact it's actually nothing with a label, like that flying purple elephant in the sky. In the same way one has to go outside and look up to see that there's really no flying purple elephant in the sky, one must look around deep inside to see that the self, too, doesn't actually exist.

This all is great scaffolding, and last night thought really had a breakthrough, but thinking thinks more thoughts need to be thought to better cement this whole non-idea. Everything thinking has thought of so far has held up joyously, though.

Thank you so much! <3

[Moonlight]

I am delighted John. You seem to be through the gateless gate!

That was dopey of me not to get the progression bit. From where you start to ___. Thanks for explaining again :D

I"m going to get some confirmations from the other guides, which is part of the process. If the others agree, then, well, congratulations and welcome to the other side!

While we're waiting, can you answer two more questions?

1. How does it feel to be liberated?
2. How would you explain it to someone who's never heard of this before at all?

Thank you ever so much, John, for giving me the pleasure of walking with you to the gate.

[Moonlight]

This all is great scaffolding, and last night thought really had a breakthrough, but thinking thinks more thoughts need to be thought to better cement this whole non-idea. Everything thinking has thought of so far has held up joyously, though.

And if I may, John, do you 'think' you don't exist, or 'see' you don't exist. There's a difference, and your last sentence confused me a bit, to be honest. So you have 3 questions now.

Much love.