Come on in, leave your beliefs at the door.

[mgtribes]

yes, I'm still here. struggling with the question. I want to say I am the one that creates the thoughts. or maybe i recycle the thoughts from past experiences. I'm not sure. I have recognised that it is the thought that creates the emotion, and when I change the thought, the emtion goes away. but it is all I there, and I feel that I am pointing in the wrong direction.

but it really feels like the thoughts are coming from me.

But if, as you seem to suggest, I can't have an original thought...that it is all based on what I know, then thoughts are just a reorganising of what is in my experience. which is my past history.

I feel I can change my thoughts, to control my response to events...that's very liberating, and helping me to cope, but it isn't showing me the source of the thoughts. do they come from outside me?

[Nemo]

Good question. Can you answer it?
When a thought happens, observe it. What triggers it?

[mgtribes]

Arrrggghhhhhhhh!

[mgtribes]

The thoughts come from my ego, critic, observer...whatever I want to call it. My personal chatterbox. thougths are triggered by observations, and other thoughts, and fears.

Thoughts about my relationship breakup are created by fears, threats to my ego.

[Nemo]

Hehe! Glad you are still here Mike.

Can you explain how you reach the conclusion that that is where thoughts come from?
Is it anything more than an unchallenged life-long assumption?

Or, is it that you are referring to the place where thoughts seem to occur, rather than come from - that ego/critic/observer is simply something like 'mind' or a reference point in experience, like a personified collection of thoughts and patterns... a 'personality', which has been shaped by environment and conditions?

Right now, I just thought about lychees. I didn't do it on purpose, the thought just sort of appeared there, I had no control over it. I feel a little hungry right now, my body is saying it wants food... however if someone offered me a lychee, I would probably not take it, because of my preferences - I'm not a fan of lychees. It might have something to do with my brother calling them "eyeballs" when I was a little kid.

All of this, all these thoughts, preferences, etc are being shaped by conditions, environment & circumstance. "I" am most certainly not in control here, and am, in fact, no where to be found in this whole process whatsoever. "I" is simply a linguistic device which I am using to refer to this location, this body, this personality, this collection of thoughts, behaviour and patterns. But there is certainly no self to be found, and none necessary.

There is sometimes still a sense of self though. There has to be some residue from a lifetime of believing in a lie. Thoughts about self happen, and thoughts about the need to protect a self can still happen too. It's a little like a feedback loop, and these thoughts about self, which are fed by and reflected off a belief in self, can make them swell and breed and grow exponentially. One thought breeds many, rapidly, the lie grows and tries to protect itself, creating lies built on lies, ad nauseam. We just need to remove their fuel source.

It is indeed very possible to control, or to use a better word, authenticate responses to events and the direction of thought patterns. And you're correct, it IS very liberating! There are ways we can do this temporarily, but it is sort of more like a bandaid than a cure. The most effective and impactful way to do this is to strike at the source - the mother of all illusions, from which most other delusions are spawned. The root cause of suffering. This high-maintenance lie which demands constant pampering, soothing, protecting, avenging, flattering, humouring, etc.

Keep using the relationship stuff to look at this with, no doubt there are some very strong and intense emotions and thoughts accompanying and a great opportunity. Something I would like you to try is spend some time viewing life through "the lens of no-self". You have spent your life looking through the lens of self, so try this, just as an experiment. I'm not asking you to believe anything, simply observe life as if no-self were an absolute truth. See if it makes sense or not. See if there are any inconsistencies or incongruencies. Because, as I am sure you have found, there are PLENTY looking through the lens of self ;)

This is an experiment I did myself that really helped things fall into place for me. Be thorough, take time with it, a day or two if you need. Then tell me which "lens" makes more sense, which rings more true. Use Occam's Razor, bring truth closer by deducing the least likely possibilities.

You are doing really well Mike, you have plenty of smarts, and lots of fire! You can do this. Burn, baby, burn!

[mgtribes]

Yes, I'm still here. and not going anywhere. if I do, I'll let you know. don't give up on me if I'm gone for a day or two...it is likely I'm just pulling out hairs in an attempt to make some sense of the latest task you assigned me.

I'll try to at least check in every day or two!

I actually was thinking circumstance as the answer to what triggers thoughts. I just didn't think it was right. but it makes sense as I look more closely at it. And noticing the ups and downs of my thoughts and emotions based on the presence and content of emails received from certain individuals...wow. I'm totally out of control of my rollercoaster emotions. Bringing them under control is, as you say a bandaid. I don't want just the bandaid.

viewing life as no self. I'll play with that.

I had a cool experience once at an enlightenment intensive, when I was out for a walk, and started to see my body as something separate, that "I" had control over, but remotely. it was as if I was watching the body walk down the road, and I could make it twitch or fling it over the cliff, and it wouldn't really matter to "me." It was almost like I was out of body watching this body moving around, and I had the remote control for it.

So when I view life as no self, it's a shift in perspective, I assume. a perspective I'm probably not that familiar with. I'm not sure how to do that, except to just act as an observer to all that happens. Is that what you mean?

Thanks Nemo!

Mike

[Nemo]

Awesome Mike! Rest assured, I won't give up as long as you don't my friend :)

I actually was thinking circumstance as the answer to what triggers thoughts. I just didn't think it was right. but it makes sense as I look more closely at it. And noticing the ups and downs of my thoughts and emotions based on the presence and content of emails received from certain individuals...wow. I'm totally out of control of my rollercoaster emotions. Bringing them under control is, as you say a bandaid. I don't want just the bandaid.

viewing life as no self. I'll play with that.

Kick-ass man, happy to hear it! You have drive, and you have integrity - which, used together with focus, and honesty - are all the tools you need to get this done.

So when I view life as no self, it's a shift in perspective, I assume. a perspective I'm probably not that familiar with. I'm not sure how to do that, except to just act as an observer to all that happens. Is that what you mean?

Yep, that's basically it. As I said, I'm not asking you to believe anything, it's just an experiment, as you said, in shifting perspective. To see if no-self has any truth, try apply it to real life, and observe things as if no-self is true. Does it make sense? Do things fall into place? Are there any discrepancies?

[mgtribes]

I was playing with it a little today. I spent a lot of time getting caught up in my story. the poor me story, and then telling the story in my head. and every once in a while I would remember, no self. it wasn't about being an observer as much as feeling part of the people around me, like they were acting as a part of me, or that I was a part of this bigger whole..or something... during one of my enlightenment intensive aha's I saw individual people like fingers that were sticking out from a lake, with the hand below the surface. they all seemed individual and separate, but were all part of something larger. It sort of feels like that, looking at people with the no-self lenses. I am going to play with that a little longer.

one thing my (now ex-) girlfriend told me not so long ago was that she was worried about this enlightenment stuff, because she would no longer be able to make me happy, and that she was worried I wouldn't need her anymore, and would be more aloof.

I'm wondering if you could shed a bit of light on that topic, because I am curious....I assume that seeing another from the no-self perspective would be the ultimate in love. but I don't know what that looks like from either perspective. I know this isn't part of the purpose of this forum, but that is a nagging fear that has been introduced, and any assurances would be helpful in moving ahead.

thanks again Nemo. you're awesome.

Mike

[Nemo]

I was playing with it a little today. I spent a lot of time getting caught up in my story. the poor me story, and then telling the story in my head. and every once in a while I would remember, no self.

That's fine, just keep flexing it, like a muscle.

I saw individual people like fingers that were sticking out from a lake, with the hand below the surface. they all seemed individual and separate, but were all part of something larger. It sort of feels like that, looking at people with the no-self lenses. I am going to play with that a little longer.

Yes, what you are talking about here is duality (the fingers) and nonduality (the hand), and 'fingers on a hand' is a perfect analogy of how both are true at the same time. Nonduality shows, as you have seen, that everything is connected, that all is part of a bigger whole. And it's not just new-age nonsense, it is perfectly obvious if one simply takes the time to look. Everything is interconnected, a process unfolding, like a chain reaction from the big bang.

So, there are people, with their lives and stories, hopes and dreams and things. These things are all real and true, they just don't belong to anyone. Everything exists, except for you. Mike exists, you don't. How can there be some separate entity, some self, looking in? Experiencing life? When nothing is separate and all there is is experience?

one thing my (now ex-) girlfriend told me not so long ago was that she was worried about this enlightenment stuff, because she would no longer be able to make me happy, and that she was worried I wouldn't need her anymore, and would be more aloof.

Haha, yeah, this sort of concern can be common. And the reason we don't talk about these things much here is because it's better for people to find these things out for themselves, rather than be filled with expectations.
What I will say is this. This isn't a magical procedure, in which we are surgically removing a self from Mike to make him this amazing mysterious transcendental super-being (unfortunately. I am still waiting for my super powers to arrive in the mail myself). We are looking to see that self never existed in the first place. So do you think seeing the truth would pull experience closer or remove it further from life?

Self, or belief in self, creates a kind of gap between life and the experience of it. It makes that experience inauthentic. Like I said, self indicates an experiencer, when all there is is experience. What we are trying to do is close this gap.

[tittytola]

hello,

I'm here because I want to understand the truth about life...my life. Not the life that wakes up everyday and does the 'dallies', but the life that has sometimes had a glimpse of certainty. Yet that certainty, although absolutely real, I can only express it as something intuitive, something I feel is true and okay. There's a voice inside me telling me to look, to look beyond me, beyond everything I know about me. It's been telling me for a long time but now, now it's incessant. Look now it's saying, not tomorrow or the next day, but now.

So here I am I don't know what more to add. I feel like I'm looking up at a mountain and it's high and er..well I've never climbed a mountain !

[Nemo]

Hi tittytola,
I'd be happy to work with you, but I am already working with someone on this thread do I'll start another one just got you, okay?
It will be in the one-on-one section.

[Nemo]

Just for you.
Damn autocorrect!

[mgtribes]

Lol.

And just checking in. no major revelations. I am getting better at remembering to view the world as if there is no self, but often I am just caught up in my regular patterns.

When you said "Mike exists, you don't" that was a bit of a surprise. I had never considered it that way. But I can see how that make sense. It seems a bit like looking into a computer game and seeing all the individual characters there. I don't exist in there, but I can observe all the characters, and they are all real to each other.

Mike

[Nemo]

Sounds like a bit of a revelation there..! Nice. Keep up the good work, and keep checking in. Sometimes just ranting about what you see can really help, when the words are out of your head and out in front of you to look at, you get a different perspective of them.

[mgtribes]

My son was talking about death the other day. and how he wasn't afraid of death, but more curious about it.

I thought about death from the no self aspect and it made it look very very different. It felt like it really had no impact on me. I will contemplate this more.