Ready to End the Questions

[EricW]

There's a lot of frustration and uncertainty in this answer though.

Can you share a little more about that?

My answer just doesn't fit the pattern. It's an honest assessment of what I see, but it's mixed in with the understanding that I've been so wrong so many times about this kind of stuff in the past. The rest of the questions you've asked me have been pretty definitive and easy.

There's the thought that perhaps that answer is seen simply because it gels with all my "hard won realizations." I can think the thought "I'm willing to give up those realizations because they stand in the way" and think that I really believe it, but it's something that can't be controlled (especially given that the mind and heart do what they do anyways).

Is there a seer separate from the seen?

I can't find it. More accurately - if there is, it doesn't have a shape or color like, say, my leg, or a sound like a passing car. If there is a seer, it's intangible.

[Paulo]

I can't find it. More accurately - if there is, it doesn't have a shape or color like, say, my leg, or a sound like a passing car. If there is a seer, it's intangible.

I'd like you to look a little closer at this. Observe that you begin with 'I can't find it' - that's great, it sounds authentic to me, spoken from personal experience in the moment. Nice and simple and direct. The next sentence however begins with an 'if' - to me this is a prospective statement, one whose origins are in imagination, not direct experience.

'If' there is a bogey man hiding under your bed, how would you prove it's existence or non-existence? Simply LOOK of course :) It really is a very simple thing. Reality exists, and once you make that slight adjustment to Direct Experience you will see that everything is right here in the NOW. There no need for speculation - REALITY EXISTS.

My answer just doesn't fit the pattern. It's an honest assessment of what I see

Whoever said there was a pattern, what is IS. If it doesn't fit a model of what we expect there to be we must understand that expectations are just imaginings of a future that hasn't happened. Sometimes if we look for what we expect to BE we miss what actually IS.

but it's mixed in with the understanding that I've been so wrong so many times about this kind of stuff in the past.

OK, this one is important, so we'll give it a little more time.

What does 'wrong' look like?

Is it possible you were thinking ABOUT what IS, and these insights evaporated in the light of day?

There's the thought that perhaps that answer is seen simply because it gels with all my "hard won realizations

Can you see a pattern in your last response - there has been a drift into thought. There's a thinking ABOUT rather than a LOOKING at. Thought is one step removed from what IS.

Consider the following statement -

Thoughts are real, but the content of those thoughts is not.


There's a lot to look at there I know. But you're nearly there, just a slight readjustment, not a big deal,

Paulo.

[EricW]

I can't find it. More accurately - if there is, it doesn't have a shape or color like, say, my leg, or a sound like a passing car. If there is a seer, it's intangible.

I'd like you to look a little closer at this. Observe that you begin with 'I can't find it' - that's great, it sounds authentic to me, spoken from personal experience in the moment. Nice and simple and direct. The next sentence however begins with an 'if' - to me this is a prospective statement, one whose origins are in imagination, not direct experience.

'If' there is a bogey man hiding under your bed, how would you prove it's existence or non-existence? Simply LOOK of course :) It really is a very simple thing. Reality exists, and once you make that slight adjustment to Direct Experience you will see that everything is right here in the NOW. There no need for speculation - REALITY EXISTS.

That resonates with me. As soon as that "if" word comes out, I'm in speculation territory. Reminds me of another metaphor: No one argues that the sun doesn't shine at noon. No holy books denounce the noon believers. In fact there are no noon believers because belief is simply an unnecessary tool. No science or academic writes papers to prove otherwise. It's information that is just directly available to us. Why do we limit this technique of simple looking to what we already agree upon?

Another observation - I titled this thread "Ready to End the Questions," and here I'm (thankfully) being called out for speculating. Asking questions and speculation seem inseparably linked. I came here understanding that my direct experience is the limit to what I can know, and anything beyond that is speculation, but the mind still wants to ask and doubt. I mean, direct experience in the now HAS to be all there is - because nothing else can ever be experienced (anything else that would come into experience would just be the new now).

I guess what's bothering me is the continued attempt to doubt what is so incontrovertible, or rather for the mind to fall back into these beliefs it knows are untrue when it isn't specifically watching out for it. It's like I keep waking up and falling back asleep over and over.

but it's mixed in with the understanding that I've been so wrong so many times about this kind of stuff in the past.

OK, this one is important, so we'll give it a little more time.

What does 'wrong' look like?

There's no wrong in reality. Definitely an abstraction.

I think what I mean by "wrong" is that the content of my thought doesn't match reality, when there's the intention for it to.

Is it possible you were thinking ABOUT what IS, and these insights evaporated in the light of day?

That's certainly not only possible, but exactly it.

Consider the following statement -

Thoughts are real, but the content of those thoughts is not.

Indeed. The content can be anything, it's unrelated to reality. It goes away when you stop believing in it. The thought itself though, is directly experienced and that fact stays even if it isn't believed.

[Paulo]

Indeed. The content can be anything, it's unrelated to reality. It goes away when you stop believing in it. The thought itself though, is directly experienced and that fact stays even if it isn't believed.

Terrific, couldn't have said it better myself. A really nice post, good work. Here's an amusing story that illustrates the point nicely -

A ship’s captain goes before an interview panel of admirals, hoping to get a job captaining a cruise ship in the South Seas.
During the interview process the first admiral asks him – If you were captaining a cruise liner and came upon a storm at sea, what would you do to protect the ship and passengers?
The captain answered – well I would face the ship into the storm, drop an anchor from the bow, and wait until the storm blew out.
Excellent answer said the first admiral, that’s exactly the right thing to do.
The second admiral asked – if you were captaining a cruise ship and a cyclone blew up at sea, what would you do to protect the ship and passengers?
The captain answered – well I would face the ship into the cyclone and drop an anchor from the bow, and another from the stern, and wait until the cyclone had passed.
Excellent answer said the second admiral, that’s exactly the right thing to do.
The last admiral then asked – if you were captaining a cruise ship and came across a tsunami at sea, what would you do to protect the ship and passengers?
The captain answered – I would face the ship into the tsunami, drop anchors from the bow and stern, three more over the port side and another five anchors over the starboard side.
The third admiral responded – that sounds like a prudent approach, but where are you getting all these anchors from?
The captain replied quick as a flash – the same place your getting those storms!

I guess what's bothering me is the continued attempt to doubt what is so incontrovertible, or rather for the mind to fall back into these beliefs it knows are untrue when it isn't specifically watching out for it. It's like I keep waking up and falling back asleep over and over.

Perhaps you would consider this behaviour as having a purpose, a function. Here's a little example to illustrate what I mean - if you wake up and see it's a shitty day outside, you're going to hit the snooze button and fall back into that warm comfy bed once again. That behaviour serves the function of protection from something that is believed to be unpleasant.

Likewise, when looking at Direct Experience, seeing reality for what it is, it may not be as sexy or 'rock and roll' as the bible told us it would be. No marching bands, fireworks, or holy angels coming down from the sky on moon beams. The illusion is far more desirable to some and they doze off again, dreaming of winning the lottery or 'making it big in Hollywood'. [If you've ever seen the film 'The Matrix' you may be able to relate - there's a character in that movie who wakes up, but desperately wants to go back asleep again].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM

So, what's it to be - the red pill or the blue pill? ... just kidding :)

Can you see that there may be some fear or hesitation there?

Just allow that feeling to be there, without trying to dismiss it or encourage it. Then LOOK.

What's behind that fear, what's it protecting?

Paulo.

[EricW]

I guess what's bothering me is the continued attempt to doubt what is so incontrovertible, or rather for the mind to fall back into these beliefs it knows are untrue when it isn't specifically watching out for it. It's like I keep waking up and falling back asleep over and over.

Perhaps you would consider this behaviour as having a purpose, a function. Here's a little example to illustrate what I mean - if you wake up and see it's a shitty day outside, you're going to hit the snooze button and fall back into that warm comfy bed once again. That behaviour serves the function of protection from something that is believed to be unpleasant.

Likewise, when looking at Direct Experience, seeing reality for what it is, it may not be as sexy or 'rock and roll' as the bible told us it would be. No marching bands, fireworks, or holy angels coming down from the sky on moon beams. The illusion is far more desirable to some and they doze off again, dreaming of winning the lottery or 'making it big in Hollywood'. [If you've ever seen the film 'The Matrix' you may be able to relate - there's a character in that movie who wakes up, but desperately wants to go back asleep again].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7BuQFUhsRM

So, what's it to be - the red pill or the blue pill? ... just kidding :)

Can you see that there may be some fear or hesitation there?

Definitely. I'm afraid I'll miss something. I'm afraid that I'll fail to see something that's there.

Just allow that feeling to be there, without trying to dismiss it or encourage it. Then LOOK.

What's behind that fear, what's it protecting?

Well, nothing. There's nothing to miss. It's all right here. There's no failure in the way I describe.

[EricW]

So tonight I had the opportunity to completely dissolve. I don't know if you've ever done it, but I went to a ceremony to take 5-MeO-DMT (not the same as N,N,DMT, which is Ayahuasca, 5-MeO-DMT is much more intense). The experience shows you death itself - it's the literal dissolution into nothingness.

I've gone once before, so I knew what was going on, and that fear, the intensest a human being could feel, popped up. It was so strong that I didn't take the medicine (I have the opportunity to again tomorrow, or really any time in the future when I'm ready to look).

That's the fear that's protecting nothing (or, protecting the end of the story). But honestly, just saying that is an intellectual thing.

I'm saying this because I've been to the edge. I can play this game of direct looking, and sure I can look and see what is. It's nice. But honestly it feels like a distraction from the real work of facing existential fear (unless it itself evokes those fears or helps in the surrendering to those fears).

I'm not saying this well, because I'm trying to say "Help me with these fears" rather than "This conversation isn't helpful." I know this shit intellectually inside and out. I know how to directly look. There are some places I'm mortally afraid to look, and 5-MeO-DMT shows me one of those places.

[Paulo]

Thank you for sharing your current experience,

It's very important that for the time you are involved in the process here on the forum that you refrain from engaging in any other 'spiritual' or ritualistic practices. As someone who has spent some time pursuing etheogens as a route to 'enlightenment' or 'awakening', my experience has been that they lead further away from reality.

They can be very seductive, and promise much, but for me at least they lead further into illusion (a very vivid and inviting one, but an illusion none the less). Partaking in sacred sacraments, whatever they may be, brings about a temporary change in our perception of reality, a different dreaming, but a still a dreaming. It is just a 'state', something temporary that evaporates in the light of day. When we LOOK, that which is real remains, that which is illusion disappears.

What we do here is, for me at least, is far more interesting - looking at the true nature of self. Fear exists only where there is a 'self' to experience fear, and some other 'thing' to be afraid of. Without both the 'self' and that 'thing' fear cannot exist. What we do here is look at whether there is actually a separate entity called 'self' in the first place. We question the fundamental BELIEF on which that fear exists.

For example, if you are asleep and having a nightmare that you are being chased by something which evokes terror, you might wake up in a cold sweat. Look around you, where has that terror gone? It hasn't gone anywhere, because it never existed in the first place. When you are 'in' the dream, and believing it, it all seems so tangible, but when you awake you see the dream for what it really is. Likewise with the illusion of self, going further into the dream won't help you wake up.

I hope that didn't sound too preachy, as I do respect your choice to investigate the nature of consciousness through altering perception. Unfortunately you cannot continue here if that is your choice. You are of course free to come back any time, but not while so invested in the dream.

So yes, I guess I am offering you the red pill and the blue pill from The Matrix. Go back to the dream, or wake up - you choose.

What is fear in direct experience?

Paulo.

[EricW]

First off, let me say again that I didn't partake at all in the first place. It came from a place of fear, but I decided against it. I may have called it a ceremony, but it was far less formal than that sounds (it's just the most appropriate word I could find for the setting).

As someone who has spent some time pursuing etheogens as a route to 'enlightenment' or 'awakening', my experience has been that they lead further away from reality.

They can be very seductive, and promise much, but for me at least they lead further into illusion (a very vivid and inviting one, but an illusion none the less). Partaking in sacred sacraments, whatever they may be, brings about a temporary change in our perception of reality, a different dreaming, but a still a dreaming. It is just a 'state', something temporary that evaporates in the light of day.

Not to start a debate or anything, but I've done quite a few entheogens. For all of them except 5-MeO, I'll agree with everything you say here. 5-MeO though is different as it's the only true entheogen I've met. It's the very opposite of dreaming or altering reality. It's the obliteration of perception/the dream itself - ego, mind, everything dissolves into Nothingness - the Void. Now, I haven't "gone all the way" yet, because while in a nightmare your natural reaction is to wake up, in this nightmare (it's really scary to dissolve if you've never done it before) the natural reaction is to want to go deeper to sleep.

I don't want to belabor the point (because while the experience is one outside of time, it's still temporary).

Fear exists only where there is a 'self' to experience fear, and some other 'thing' to be afraid of. Without both the 'self' and that 'thing' fear cannot exist. What we do here is look at whether there is actually a separate entity called 'self' in the first place. We question the fundamental BELIEF on which that fear exists.

For example, if you are asleep and having a nightmare that you are being chased by something which evokes terror, you might wake up in a cold sweat. Look around you, where has that terror gone? It hasn't gone anywhere, because it never existed in the first place. When you are 'in' the dream, and believing it, it all seems so tangible, but when you awake you see the dream for what it really is. Likewise with the illusion of self, going further into the dream won't help you wake up.

I hope that didn't sound too preachy, as I do respect your choice to investigate the nature of consciousness through altering perception. Unfortunately you cannot continue here if that is your choice. You are of course free to come back any time, but not while so invested in the dream.

The only part invested in the dream is that fear. The fear is unwanted. I don't see the goal of waking up and looking at that fear as incompatible. In fact, as your next question deals directly with it, I'd say this experience may have been flirting with "the rules," but was certainly helpful in showing me that fear very directly now. I can't see it as but an enhancement.

What is fear in direct experience?

The guardian that protects against the ending of the story of self.

[Paulo]

What is fear in direct experience?

The guardian that protects against the ending of the story of self.

That's just a concept of what fear is. You need to LOOK here EricW. LOOK at what actually IS in Direct Experience.


In my experience the story of 'self' doesn't end with awakening, but we come to realize that it's JUST a story and doesn't point to an entity separate from that experience.

Paulo.

[Paulo]

You may also be interested in reading 'Philips' story on page 15 of the Gateless Gatecrashers book, as that dialogue deals with fear.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

[EricW]

Literally, fear is a tightness-feeling in the heart area.

[EricW]

Watching closer for a bit, that tightness-feeling seems to accompany thoughts of loss or damage. It gets stronger when the anticipated trauma is nearer in time (particularly the future).

I'm very available today btw. I'd love to continue via a faster/more intense medium like an IM service if that's available. I understand you're taking time out of your life to do this for free (which is beyond appreciated) so I understand if that's not amiable. I'm just hungry for this.

[Paulo]

Sorry EricW, only picked up your post now. Fantastic! great attitude, and I'm really pleased you're sticking with this process. You can do this, I have no doubts whatsoever.

I'd love to continue via a faster/more intense medium like an IM service if that's available.

We do have a Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/241097475942811/ and I will be available for next hour or so. I'll open a thread there for you, so look for a thread I'll create for you there. All dialogue on Facebook will be posted here later, so that the dialogue all stays in one place and you can see your progress when you finally cross the gate.

So you on the other side, Paulo.

[Paulo]

Hi EricW, looks like the Facebook group idea didn't work out as planned, never mind, worth a try. It's off to bed for me, but I do want you to keep looking at that fear for yourself.

Look at that tightness in the body -

Is that a reaction to the thoughts, or did a 'you' create those sensations?

Is there anything there that owns those sensations?

Look at those thoughts closer -

Are the scenarios that come up real? do you know this for sure?


Here's a exercise I think you might like -

This little exercise demonstrates how the mind mistakes the imaginary character 'I' in thought for a real being, and tries to protect it. It's what we might call the 'jump test'.

Step 1: Stand in a room where you have some quiet and some space
Step 2: Close your eyes and imagine as vividly as you can that you are standing on the roof of a tall building. Feel the wind around you, hear the traffic and noise of the street below, check if it's night or day, have a look around and note what you can see - engage as many senses in the imaginary experience as you can.
Step 3: In your imagination walk to the edge of the building - look at how far the street is below, see the traffic and people if there are any, see your feet on the edge.
Step 4: Both in your imagination and with the physical body take a step forward over the edge.

Observe how the body reacts, observe how the imaginary characters falls - did you reach the bottom, landing on the ground?

Try that exercise again until you can successfully fall and land.

The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?

Paulo.

[EricW]

Look at that tightness in the body -

Is that a reaction to the thoughts, or did a 'you' create those sensations?

Reaction to the thoughts.

Is there anything there that owns those sensations?

No. They're like any other thoughts or emotions, they're just there.

Look at those thoughts closer -

Are the scenarios that come up real? do you know this for sure?

I know them as memories, but they're just being projected into the future, with the assumption the future will be the same. So in short, no they're not real. Yes I'm sure they're not real.

Here's a exercise I think you might like -

This little exercise demonstrates how the mind mistakes the imaginary character 'I' in thought for a real being, and tries to protect it. It's what we might call the 'jump test'.

Step 1: Stand in a room where you have some quiet and some space
Step 2: Close your eyes and imagine as vividly as you can that you are standing on the roof of a tall building. Feel the wind around you, hear the traffic and noise of the street below, check if it's night or day, have a look around and note what you can see - engage as many senses in the imaginary experience as you can.
Step 3: In your imagination walk to the edge of the building - look at how far the street is below, see the traffic and people if there are any, see your feet on the edge.
Step 4: Both in your imagination and with the physical body take a step forward over the edge.

Observe how the body reacts, observe how the imaginary characters falls - did you reach the bottom, landing on the ground?

Kind of. I reached the bottom, but the scene was broken and intermittent (it didn't have a smooth continuation).

The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?

Not here to speculate on other peoples' minds. The scene that played out in my mind reached the bottom simply because my mind set out an intention for accuracy (no matter the feelings that popped up).