Asking for guidence

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:21 pm

What is “other beings” or “surroundings”? Is it any more than what you are experiencing right now (sound, vision etc.)? Is there anything else other than what you are experiencing right now?
Yes that sums it up pretty well. Everything I experience.
Can you experience a “source” or a “receiver”? Can you experience the sound to “enter your being”? Have a good look and tell me what you are experiencing. Is there any more than “just sound”?
Ok. I listen. Here is what happens: first there is experiencing sound, then a thought appears: oh that's a bird, that's a car et.c
This does obviously not mean that there are no decisions being made - choosing happens constantly.
The question you have to look at is: Is there a separate “I” that is making any decisions?
So how does decisions happen? They just happen?

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Alexw
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Alexw » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:50 am

Everything I experience.
first there is experiencing sound, then a thought appears: oh that's a bird
Is there an "I", an entity that is experiencing experience or is there only experiencing? First there is sound, then a thought, then whatever... What is the conclusion if there is no source and no receiver? What is left?
So how does decisions happen? They just happen?
You tell me. If there is no "I" - or rather the "I" is just a thought - then how are decisions made? Maybe they are just made based on a lot of conditioned knowledge and/or believes..? What is important is to find out if "you" are making decisions. If there is an entity "you" doing anything at all... Are "you" seeing, hearing, eating, sleeping..?

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:31 pm

Is there an "I", an entity that is experiencing experience or is there only experiencing? First there is sound, then a thought, then whatever... What is the conclusion if there is no source and no receiver? What is left?
A long as I'm writing in "I" form. What do I refer to. A sense of "I", which is no more than a thought when I look at it. If there is no source or receiver there is only sound left.
If there is no "I" - or rather the "I" is just a thought - then how are decisions made? Maybe they are just made based on a lot of conditioned knowledge and/or believes..? What is important is to find out if "you" are making decisions. If there is an entity "you" doing anything at all... Are "you" seeing, hearing, eating, sleeping..?
When talking to people, it's useful to use I see, or I eat, I sleep et.c. If there is no I there but only pure experiencing. What is experiencing? Another thought, or something more solid? Would the experience be there if thoughts was not there. They seem inseparable to me

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Alexw
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Alexw » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:21 am

Yes, our language is very "I" focussed and this makes it a bit awkward at times.

What is experiencing... it is difficult to experience no-thought as thoughts pretty much constantly pop up out of nowhere. Thus it seems logical to ponder if not everything is just thought - why should a sound not also just be a thought? Maybe sound is not a thought, but they are just of the same "essence"? Thoughts are experienced so are sounds, smells ad tastes. Is there any difference? If sound would be constantly around and not seem to come from the "outside" would you not think that maybe everything is sound (instead of everything is thought)?

So, whats left? What is here, right now? Is there more than THIS - everything that you see, hear, feel and think right now? What are you if you are not a separate self / "I" thought?

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:57 pm

Maybe sound is not a thought, but they are just of the same "essence"? Thoughts are experienced so are sounds, smells ad tastes. Is there any difference? If sound would be constantly around and not seem to come from the "outside" would you not think that maybe everything is sound (instead of everything is thought)?
So we can say, everything that appears is experienced. And nothing else exists really, just what is experienced right now. All thoughts about future or past are just thoughts experienced now.
So, whats left? What is here, right now? Is there more than THIS - everything that you see, hear, feel and think right now?
Yes, this makes it more easy. Nothing else than now, experienced.
What are you if you are not a separate self / "I" thought?
If I'm not a separate self. What is left? The experience of now is still there. So I'm the experience of now. Or the experiencer of now

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Alexw
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Alexw » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:45 am

Hi Sam,

I think we should recap a few things - just to get a good idea where we stand - so please have a look at these questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Regards
Alex

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:39 pm

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
When I look, all that I refer to as some kind of identity, I find is no more than thoughts. What makes me confused is, from the place where I experience, through the senses for example, this body is different from yours. We don't experience the same things. This seems still separate. Does this makes sense? Like there is both no separate self, and still separate experiences.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Ok. As I see it. When I identify with this being (me, my body) and it's needs. Which in a way is separate from other beings (different body, different experiences) This identification creates the sense or thought that there is a "me" somewhere. When I look at it at another level, as the source of everything is same, there I find no separation. I could say, in my experience right now, both is true at the same time, separation and non separation.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Difference is, it's quite clear that the sense of I, as an identity, is thoughts. When I look at this, it creates a feeling of openness. Sometimes when I read the questions and think about them, because I find nothing, comes this sense of openness.
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
I can see decisions happening, the thoughts of "self/I" seems to affect the decision-thoughts, intension-thoughts et.c. But I didn't create the "self" thought from the beginning, it just appeared, so did the decision-thoughts. A lot of times also decisions are made so fast, before I even thought about making a decision. Most of the time actually. There is so much happening all the time. Just like how my hand moves on the keys when writing this, it goes so fast, there is not much of these decisions "I" am really involved in.

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Alexw
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Alexw » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:54 am

this body is different from yours. We don't experience the same things
Yes, this makes complete sense, doesn’t it? What would happen if everyone would have exactly the same experiences? Would you still be functioning as a human being or would you function as something like “universal consciousness”?
Let's have a look at how you experience: Is there an entity that is experiencing or is there just experiencing? You said before “So I'm the experience of now. Or the experiencer of now”… Have another look at this – it is essential to find out if there is an entity that is experiencing e.g. sound or if there is just the sounding – the experiencing.
If you can not find an entity “I”, no experiencer, do you think “others” have/own an entity that is experiencing?
source of everything is same
What is the “source of everything”? Can you experience the “source of everything”?
the thoughts of "self/I" seems to affect the decision-thoughts
What is the involvement of “I” in decisions? Can you find proof of any decision that has been made by the “I” thought? Or is the “I” thought just a commentary to what’s happening?

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:20 am

What would happen if everyone would have exactly the same experiences? Would you still be functioning as a human being or would you function as something like “universal consciousness”?
It would be quite different. I can't even imagine how this would be.
Is there an entity that is experiencing or is there just experiencing?
I must ask. What exactly are we talking about when we talk about entity? I read into it in the dictionary and it said something like "Something existing as a unit" or "something having real or distinct existence; a thing, esp when considered as independent of other things".
Could the body be seen as a entity? it's a unit, but I can not see it independent of other things. What's the definition we use?
When I look. I find no "I" exept the thought of "I". I find the body as a unit. Is there anything else than the body? body experiencing.
If you can not find an entity “I”, no experiencer, do you think “others” have/own an entity that is experiencing?
No. It must be the same for everyone. The "I" identity as a thought.
What is the “source of everything”? Can you experience the “source of everything”?
Hmm. I don't know really. No, I can only experience everything appearing.
What is the involvement of “I” in decisions? Can you find proof of any decision that has been made by the “I” thought? Or is the “I” thought just a commentary to what’s happening?
No. I mean. Thougths seems to appear constantly and connected to each other. So there is the "I" thought, and then comes another thought connected to the I thought. Like a decision thought for example, linked together. Not that the "I" thought lives it's own life and makes decisions. Just linked together with other thoughts and affecting them.
This could be story making again…

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Alexw
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Alexw » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:02 am

Is there anything else than the body? body experiencing.
Yes, entity as something having a separate, independent existence. Based on this definition, is there an entity “experiencer”? Is your body an entity? Can your body experience anything or is there experiencing OF the body? Furthermore: Try to experience "body" with open eyes and with eyes closed – what is the experience of "body"? Is there an experience of the unit/entity "body" or are there just a set of experiences that might be labelled "body"? Is “body” any more than a concept that consists of labelled experiences?
I can only experience everything appearing
Yes, well seen. Is your "body" also just "appearing" in awareness?
Like a decision thought for example
What is a decision thought? Is this a thought that appears after a decision is made and reflects about the decision and/or claims ownership? Or is this a thought that makes a decision? Can you experience a thought making a decision?

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:01 am

Yes, entity as something having a separate, independent existence. Based on this definition, is there an entity “experiencer”? Is your body an entity? Can your body experience anything or is there experiencing OF the body?
Thanks for making it clear. Based on this definition. No, i find no entity. Not the self, nether the body. None of these have a independent existence. Body is very dependent on it's surroundings for example. And the self, a thought appearing. Can't be independent existence.

There is experiencing of the body going on for sure. When we die for example. I guess that body doesn't experience anymore.
Furthermore: Try to experience "body" with open eyes and with eyes closed – what is the experience of "body"? Is there an experience of the unit/entity "body" or are there just a set of experiences that might be labelled "body"? Is “body” any more than a concept that consists of labelled experiences?
I'll try. Ok. With open eyes. I can see the body, I can feel some sensations in the body.
With closed eyes. Same but without seeing it, the other sensations get a bit more strong, like I hear the brearhing going through my throat. I can feel the ground where I sit touching my skin. Hmm. I guess there is a set of experiences that is labeled body, as I don't experience the sansations all the time. They appear and disappear.
Is your "body" also just "appearing" in awareness?
Yes. I see that now, bodily sensations appear and disappear. Sometimes I am not aware of the body at all. When sleeping for example. Does it exist for me right at that moment? No. Only as thoughts about it.
What is a decision thought? Is this a thought that appears after a decision is made and reflects about the decision and/or claims ownership? Or is this a thought that makes a decision? Can you experience a thought making a decision?
With decision thought, I mean the process of decision happening, where ever that process happens. In the brain as a thought process or something like that.
No I never experienced a thought making a decision.

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Alexw
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Alexw » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:51 am

Yes, well done.
Is there a difference between visually experiencing objects categorised as “parts of body” and experiencing other objects like “chair” or “apple”? Are they not all just colours blending from one into the other? How about sound? Is experiencing the sound of a bird different to experiencing e.g. your own voice (even if you might not be able to sing as beautifully as a bird ;-)?

Is there experiencing of “body” when you are sleeping – especially when you are dreaming? Are you able to see, hear and feel while dreaming? If so, would that not indicate that your body that is present in the waking state might also just be a set of experiences? Just like the "dream body"?

If there is no “body” experiencing and there is no separate “I” experiencing, is there anything left but pure experiencing?

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:21 am

Is there a difference between visually experiencing objects categorised as “parts of body” and experiencing other objects like “chair” or “apple”? Are they not all just colours blending from one into the other? How about sound? Is experiencing the sound of a bird different to experiencing e.g. your own voice?
No. That's true. if we reduce it to one sense. Like seeing. It's is completely the same seeing parts of the body as seeing other objects. I never thought of that before. But I see it's true. For example when a leg is "sleeping" and i loose det physical sense of the leg. It feels just like looking at anyones leg. Just a leg. Same with the voice. Reduce it to hearing and it's just the same. The interesting thing is that it's heard and felt at the same time which makes me experience it in a special way.
Is there experiencing of “body” when you are sleeping – especially when you are dreaming? Are you able to see, hear and feel while dreaming? If so, would that not indicate that your body that is present in the waking state might also just be a set of experiences? Just like the "dream body"?
There can be a experience of body in the dream. But it's not the same body as in waking state. Yes I see feel hear within the dream, when dreaming. Yes this makes totally sense. The experience of body in waking state is quite same as in dream state. I see no difference really.
If there is no “body” experiencing and there is no separate “I” experiencing, is there anything left but pure experiencing?
Yes that's feels very true. Only experience left.

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Alexw
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Alexw » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:45 am

It's is completely the same seeing parts of the body as seeing other objects
Yes, well observed. Please try this exercise.
1. Pick a simple object (a mug for example), clear a space (a table top) and place the object in the middle. Now sit down and look at the object.
2. Note what is perceived visually - NOT what you THINK you perceive. Down to the most elementary description possible.
3. Then please report.
Same with the voice. Reduce it to hearing and it's just the same. The interesting thing is that it's heard and felt at the same time which makes me experience it in a special way.
What if your voice were taped and playing from a stereo? Would it still be experienced as "your voice" or is the feeling of your mouth and tongue moving the only indication that this is “your voice”?

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Same
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Re: Asking for guidence

Postby Same » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:00 pm

Very interesting exercise. I'll put some more time into it. I ger back to you in the morning
s


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