Looking for a guide please

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NeilD
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby NeilD » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:49 pm

But if you sit and look at these 'states' in DE -- they are just senstations with thought stories attached
Yes this is true, I see what happened. I lost touch with the DE of the sensations and got lost in a thought story.
just look at them 'nakedly' -- with no elaboration
Weel it was just a a feeling of heaviness in the chest area, or 'chest' area as you say, nothing more until the thoughts got involved.
Can you find anything 'wrong' with these sensations?
Well, from the point of view of DE, of course not. They are just sensations appearing in a field of awareness. I do see that, but there are habits at play I suppose. I guess experience is interpreted based on past interpretations and conditioning and so it goes on.
Are they any more meaningful than hunger pangs or an itch?
Again, staying with DE, no they are not. I can feel the temptation to get lost in philosophizing etc. but I am coming round to the importance of DE and staying with what is actually happening.
Is there any 'person' there that these sensations are happening to?
None that I can see.

I haven't had a great deal of time today to really sit down and do the latest exercise. However, I've been reflecting on it all day as I have gone about my usual business. I see what I need to do and it's just staying with DE and not getting lost in the stories (or selfing as you say).
I did have an experience today of smelling a scent and before the thoughts came in, I just experienced it as an experience/sensation/smell that appeared and then disappeared in a vast field of awareness. There wasn't someone smelling a scent there was just a sense of smell appearing.
I'm really trying here not just to give the 'right' answers but describe experience as honestly as I can.

I need to practise staying with DE, I see that and I see how easily I can be thrown off course by habit and thought stories.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:57 pm

Can you find anything 'wrong' with these sensations?
Well, from the point of view of DE, of course not. They are just sensations appearing in a field of awareness. I do see that, but there are habits at play I suppose. I guess experience is interpreted based on past interpretations and conditioning and so it goes on.
OK good. But there is no need to suppose or guess anything. DE ‘just is’ – nakedly present in/as awareness.

Try this – can you find anything other than the present moment? Can you find ‘the past’ in DE? Or just thoughts that reference a past? Can there even be a past in DE if it is only ever now? ‘Habit’ is just a thought story that refers to an imagined past – and habits are the attributes of an imagined person – can you find the past, a person or his habits outside of thoughts about them? Have a look and see.
Are they any more meaningful than hunger pangs or an itch?
Again, staying with DE, no they are not. I can feel the temptation to get lost in philosophizing etc. but I am coming round to the importance of DE and staying with what is actually happening.
OK good. When thoughts about stuff come up try to see them as simple mental events – like clouds scudding across the sky. Try to take the perspective of the sky and not the clouds.
Is there any 'person' there that these sensations are happening to?
I see what I need to do and it's just staying with DE and not getting lost in the stories (or selfing as you say).
OK. When selfing thoughts arise – notice them as such. You can even say ‘selfing!’ when they appear. Don’t expect them to disappear (remember the man who knows that the rainbow is a trick of the light still sees the rainbow). Just notice that selfing thoughts arise in the same unannounced, uncontrollable way as any other aspect of experience – hunger pangs, itchy nose, sound of birds . . . thoughts say that they are vey important but from the point of view of awareness itself is any sense arising any more significant than any other?

I did have an experience today of smelling a scent and before the thoughts came in, I just experienced it as an experience/sensation/smell that appeared and then disappeared in a vast field of awareness. There wasn't someone smelling a scent there was just a sense of smell appearing.
OK did you have an experience or did a sensation just arise? See the difference? Look out for this trick of language.

I'm really trying here not just to give the 'right' answers but describe experience as honestly as I can.
Do you need to try to give the right answer or indeed any answer? Is there anything in control of what answers appear?
I need to practise staying with DE, I see that and I see how easily I can be thrown off course by habit and thought stories.
What gets thrown off course? Anything?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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NeilD
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby NeilD » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:55 am

There is nothing but direct experience, all there ever is. I sit in my meditation hut in the garden in silence, it's direct experience. I take the kids to a noisy playground, it's direct experience.

The past doesn't exist except in thought, there is just a naked awareness 'now'. The future is imagined, the past is just as imagined as the future.

There is no one experiencing thoughts as they arise, they arise, they pass away. Sensations appear in awareness and thought tries to create a story out of them. Thought will try to follow and make ownership, but there's no one there to own them.

Sensations like sounds, smell etc. are like magic, appearing and disappearing. Pure magic!

Direct experience is all there is, no need to create something out of it.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:49 pm

OK, great. So let's go back to what you said at the beginning:

"I do have a sense of self although I can't locate it or pin it down. It's a sense of continuity of being, as if there is a centre to my experience (can't find the centre though)."

How do you see this 'sense of self' now? What is it that has a 'continuity of being'? Can you find any continuity in DE? Any centre point?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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NeilD
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby NeilD » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:18 pm

No, there is no continuity or centre point. There is nothing that has continuity of being.

'Sense of self' has been replaced by a sense of unbounded awareness, a field in which sensations appear. I don't experience a 'sense of self' the way I did at the beginning.
I can't find a self in experience.

I can't see or find anything that can be pinned down as 'me' or 'mine'.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:04 pm

Nice. So can you say that 'self' has now been seen through?

What does it mean to see 'no self' for the first time? Is it some kind of 'state' or 'attainment'?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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NeilD
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby NeilD » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:40 pm

Nice. So can you say that 'self' has now been seen through?
Yes, 'self' has been seen through. I used to think that that was a grand statement to make but it seems so simple and obvious. I cannot find any trace of 'self' in experience. I cannot go back to believing in it now, it seems like an absurd thing to do.
What does it mean to see 'no self' for the first time? Is it some kind of 'state' or 'attainment'?

No, not a 'state' or 'attainment'. It's a dropping away, an unburdening, a deconstruction. There are no bright flashes or fanfares, it's ordinary, almost disappointing even! Like a veil has been lifted. There's a sense of coming home, back to something I had forgotten.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:56 pm

There are no bright flashes or fanfares, it's ordinary, almost disappointing even!
Ha ha ha. It’s not called the ‘cosmic joke’ for nothing. All that time and effort the imaginary me spent trying to lose itself!

What we do now is I ask you some summing up questions and then we invite other guides to look over the answers to see if there’s anything we missed. So please answer in your own time from what you now SEE not what thought thinks!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Please talk about deciding, intending, choosing and control, describing the process as best you can. How do these things happen? Do you make them happen? Make sure you give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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NeilD
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby NeilD » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:11 am

All that time and effort the imaginary me spent trying to lose itself!
Yes, exactly! I look back over my 20 odd years of practice and, aside from some very good work, I see a fair amount of ego polishing and preciousness about 'my' spiritual life. This process has being so helpful in seeing through that.

OK, it's late in this part of the world. I will take some time to consider the questions and get back to you.

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NeilD
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby NeilD » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:01 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No there is not. There is no centre to experience and no one who is having an experience. There never was, only the mistaken view that there was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It is the belief that there is a ‘me’ in here who is different and separate from the world out there. It is born through a mistaken interpretation of basic sensations. Sensation occurs and this is interpreted as there being someone who is experiencing the sensation and a distinct object out there that is producing the sensation.
The ability to think gives rise to the belief that there is a thinker, but there is no thinker. This is reinforced by language and the necessity to communicate. We have to talk about ‘me’ and ‘you’ to get by and function but unfortunately this creates and strengthens the view that there is a ‘me’ in here and a ‘you’ out there.
The way we are brought up and educated add to the belief that we are somehow distinct, separate entities that have to go out into the world and compete and succeed and get good jobs etc. At no point is this assumption ever questioned, and we go out into the world and suffer because we can never be happy if don’t see through this illusion.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels like a relief, like I have dropped something I have been carrying around. I really feel like a different person to the one who started this last week. Even though it’s only been a week, I feel so different. I find myself being naturally more mindful, content and joyful. I am not trying to make myself mindful etc. it just seems to come effortlessly.
I feel like a shift has happened, the world seems fresher and brighter. Yes, irritation and frustration can occur but I observe them as mental objects and not get caught up in them.
I honestly feel transformed! Little things like not turning the radio on as soon as I get into the car, or just being content to sit on the sofa and do nothing.
It feels spacious and luxurious, yet simple and ordinary at the same time.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I had a strong experience whilst doing the Rupert Spira guided mediation. It was as if I really saw how the self is created, how I’ve been making a mistake all my life. This went deep but I still needed more prodding to see further.
After further questions for me to look deeper, I felt I was being chased up a flagpole and it was as if I just had to be bold and make the leap from the top. I realised that I was still interpreting basic sensations to some degree and not allowing direct experience. I wrote almost out of a sense of frustration, as if I was shouting back at the Zen master! A sort of: ‘You want direct experience? I’ll give you direct experience!’. I stopped the thought stories about what was happening and just trusted basic, direct experience.
5) Please talk about deciding, intending, choosing and control, describing the process as best you can. How do these things happen? Do you make them happen? Make sure you give examples from experience.
Decisions get made, choices happen but no one is in control. It’s as if awareness watches things happening the way a mother watches her child play, watching with attention and kindness. I went to a yoga class on Friday and it was the best class ‘I’ have ever done because ‘I’ didn’t do it! It was as if there was an awareness of the body doing the poses and there was no selfing thoughts present. Previously in these classes, I would often find myself lost in thoughts like ‘This is hard, when will it end? This teacher is no good, this teacher is really good. I love yoga, I hate yoga. Look at me everyone, I am great at this pose!’ etc. But this time, the class happened almost effortlessly and automatically because there was no one getting in the way. No one was in control, deciding what to do, everything flowed.
Driving home this evening I noticed how several times I would indicate and turn before the thought to do so occurred.
It does seem a bit mysterious and magical, but there is no one controlling things.

6) Anything to add?
I welcome any comments or further questions. It’s been an incredibly valuable process, I am very grateful for your time and guidance. It's been the deepest reflection I've done in my life! And, I haven't been on retreat in 'ideal' conditions. I've been working, minding the kids, doing stuff in the house, shopping, just a regular week. But interestingly, I think the fact that this dialogue occurred in the midst of everyday life really helped. I didn't have any time to get precious about 'my' 'spiritual' 'states'. I had to drop all those sorts of views.The kids, work, shopping, cutting the grass, everything is teaching us all the time.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:54 pm

OK great.

This is nice:

"Little things like not turning the radio on as soon as I get into the car, or just being content to sit on the sofa and do nothing."

Yes, silence and doing nothing suddenly becomes soooo where it's at! I'll see if any other guides have questions.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:12 am

Hi Neil, looks like there's no further questions. Admin will be in touch with details of groups where you can carry on looking into other aspects of DE if you'd like to. So please check your personal messages at the top of the page. May you go well.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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NeilD
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Re: Looking for a guide please

Postby NeilD » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:48 am

That's great Mark.

Many thanks again for your time and guidance.
I feel there is a lot to absorb and reflect on.

In some ways I feel like I am just starting now, and want to go back and reread all the many books I have read over the years. This time understanding them in a new way.

Best wishes


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