The Gate

HI David,

Nice work.

(Might be fun to have a look at one modern scientist's take on this issue of choice (I'm sure you know him already):- http://www.worldscienceu.com/science_un ... r-illusory and http://www.worldscienceu.com/science_un ... -free-will )


Just to go a little further again into those experiences you write about:

I could have a thought about a cigarette so I go and have one

and

The self who made the choice seems to be in thought. The choice also was in thought. Seems like thoughts come and give information about either thing until its clear which one to pick

Ok so an instruction on the screen, or a thought, seems to trigger the action or the decision.
But can you find any self, any entity, who is actually doing these thoughts, or are there just the thoughts? Can you find any real David behind the input factors which seem to govern the output factors of acting and deciding? Look deeply into this please and tell me what comes up.

So, so far we have looked into whether there is any real 'you' in the body, separate from experiencing, as a doer, as a controller, as a decider, as a thinker and (depending on what you come up with over the thinker) it seems that we are struggling to find anything. Please tell me how does this feel, and report any changes since we started this dialogue?

Are any other issues you would like to raise now?

Cheers

Mark

Cool vids, no I had never heard of that guy before! That website is perfect, thanks for the link.

Ok so an instruction on the screen, or a thought, seems to trigger the action or the decision.
But can you find any self, any entity, who is actually doing these thoughts, or are there just the thoughts? Can you find any real David behind the input factors which seem to govern the output factors of acting and deciding? Look deeply into this please and tell me what comes up.

No, I can't find any entity making thoughts appear, only the thoughts. Memories, judgements, etc. all just show up without control. There does seem to be a type of thought that is more like me speaking to myself with thought, like mental speech. Even after re-reading what I've typed thoughts like "Am I in control of this?" "What about this?" pop up. After watching this for awhile, it seems that those thoughts still follow the rules. Then another thought came along, "How can a question know what it is refering to?". It seems now like the content of thought like "Am I in control?" is arbitrary and is just symbolic. Apologies if I'm going off course!

So, so far we have looked into whether there is any real 'you' in the body, separate from experiencing, as a doer, as a controller, as a decider, as a thinker and (depending on what you come up with over the thinker) it seems that we are struggling to find anything. Please tell me how does this feel, and report any changes since we started this dialogue?

I feel different, more free. Life flows better, seeing what is really there in reality is amazing. Feeling the body move, just being there as life happens is something special. Theres still things that get me down or tense, but what else do I need besides whats there. There can't be anything else, there never was or will be. It's a gift that I will appreciate for a long time.

Hi David,

Thanks for those answers.

Don't worry, there is no going off course! (After all, who would there be to be go off course. There would just be the going off course, and that's right ON course! Just like there's nobody to feel down, just the feeling down, and there's nobody to feel appreciation, just the appreciation.)

This IS IT! It unfolds as it unfolds, differently in each (apparent) case. Sometimes gently, sometimes like a wild ride. This is just a beginning.

OK six 'important' questions for you to answer. Take care to answer from actual experience, rather than from any sense of theory or concept (e.g. what the guy said in the video):-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Please talk about deciding, intending, choosing and control, describing the process as best you can. How do these things happen? Do you make them happen? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

Looking forward to your answers.

Cheers

Mark

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

'Self', 'me', 'I', aren't there. No stable sense of ownership of anything that is happening anymore. There was the belief that there was, but never anything really.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is just a sense of control that the mind takes to be real. The mind claims ownership of what goes on in reality and says "I do this, I am doing that, this is what I am" and actually, reality does it all by itself. There's nothing for a separate self to actually do in reality because it is all taken care of. 'Self' is just an accepted superstition, like doing a ritual to make the sun rise or a rain dance. The illusion is just a confusion about what reality is. Its just a story of a person that is told, like a scaffolding built over reality.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Its a mix of surrealness, wonder, and peace. There is no more confusion. Things go by themselves, theres no going off the rails. There's forgetting sometimes, but remembering is fun. There's a sort of "oh shit it's real" moment that comes at times.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

When the thought came up "Am I in control?" and then something clicked. How does it know what it is referring to? Thought is just a thought, and there are words in them. The content has no meaning of itself. There is an intelligence but no owner of it, it does not own, and it is not "me".

5) Please talk about deciding, intending, choosing and control, describing the process as best you can. How do these things happen? Do you make them happen? Give examples from experience.

Deciding is just done, depending on what factors that are present in the situation things are done. Intending is not needed, intent seems like a flag the mind puts down to claim an action. Really here is no difference between intent -> action done and an action being done because the intent follows the same rules in arising as an action does. Choosing is also done based on factors, through learned preferences or situational benefit. All of these things add to a sense of control. In reality there is no control, it is superfluous to reality. There is nothing to control, it doesn't fit.
Reality does everything, it is the only thing acting and moving in a continuous chain of cause and effect that even the sense of control is a part of.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you for this gift. This is so cool, it changes everything. I don't know what to say it's so awesome. I don't think I understand or will ever, the magnitude of this. If you ever want to learn how to trade ForEx I will gladly give my time to teach you. Thank you Mark!

Hi David,

Many thanks for those answers. I enjoyed reading them.

In number 5 about control, intent, deciding, choosing, the question asks for some examples from experience. Could you take a couple of things from your everyday life and, using them as examples, describe the process as best you can please?

Once I have that, I will put your answers to other guides and see whether they have any further questions.

Once we have no more questions you will be invited to some LU forums where support is offered and shared experiences for those who have seen through the illusion of the self.

Cheers

Mark

Could you take a couple of things from your everyday life and, using them as examples, describe the process as best you can please?

Some examples -
Decision
Fingernails are seen to be long, clippers are taken, nails are clipped. The seeing that the fingernails are long produced the response of finding the clippers because there is conditioning(memory) to do so. A thought could have said "I should cut my fingernails" but it is unneeded for the mind to comment on what is happening. The decision can be said to happen, but there isn't a "me" as a decider who approved it.

Intent
A thought can come "Let's go sit outside on the bench". So there is getting up, there is walking, sitting down on the bench. It could be said that "I am intending to go and sit on the bench" after the thought comes, but the whole thing is just reaction to the initial thought that came without intent. Intent is just another label on the whole process.

Choosing
Lets say there is two flavors of e-cigarette vapor. Preference might react and one is grabbed, or if there is no preference one is just grabbed. In reality the choice between things is arbitrary, and there is no thing that does an act of choosing.

Control
Standing outside smoking a cigarette, walking, body moving. Cigarette goes to the mouth then comes down, there is not control over what is happening only reactions that continue the process of happening over and over. Body might walk left or right, or stretch, or the hand might go in the pocket but it all happens and continues on. There is no place for a controller in this process of reacting. Even if a thought came "I want to go over to this part of the yard", it came from no thinker and is itself a part of the process of reacting.

..impressively comprehensive! I'll get back to you if there are any questions from the other guides.

Cheers

Mark