Would someone like to be my guide?

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for all that.

I'll just press you just a little further on 'distance'. You say that the distance seems real, and you give a distance in metres. Fine. But where is the actual sensing of that distance? Is that actual sensing of it remote or is the actual sensing as 'here' as the sensing of 'me'? Similarly 'belt' seems to be 'outside myself', tree 'outside my window', but is the actual experiencing away or is that here? Are the 'outside' and 'distance' any more than labels?

Let's do a couple more exercises.

1. Get up and walk some steps slowly. Notice, who got up and walked the few steps. Is there a controller who controls the walking? Or is there just the walking? Consider this deeply. Let me know what comes up.

2. Choose a drink eg tea/coffee/another drink or between a couple of objects eg blue pen/black pen/pencil. Then sit and see if you can find 'the self' who made that choice? If so, where exactly did that choice happen? Can you find a choicepoint (ie the location of choosing)? Try to describe the process of 'choosing'. Let me know what you find.

Over and out for now,

Mark

[loom]

Hi Mark,

You say that the distance seems real, and you give a distance in metres. Fine. But where is the actual sensing of that distance? Is that actual sensing of it remote or is the actual sensing as 'here' as the sensing of 'me'? Similarly 'belt' seems to be 'outside myself', tree 'outside my window', but is the actual experiencing away or is that here? Are the 'outside' and 'distance' any more than labels?

The sensing of the distance from me to the object is not remote. It is as present as the sensing of 'me'. It has the same quality, the same intensity if you like as what I experience as 'me'. Using your analogy of 'Life 'painting itself as me' and not trying to suggest that I experience things as two dimensional… it is as if myself and the tree are in a painting, a landscape, with me in the foreground and the tree in the distance. I appear bigger, the tree smaller, but we and the landscape are all part of the painting, we are all paint on a canvas.

The experiencing of all these things is present, is 'here' not 'away'. 'Outside' and 'distance' are just labels describing the variety of sensations as they appear in relation to each other - all part of the same 'painting'.

1. Get up and walk some steps slowly. Notice, who got up and walked the few steps. Is there a controller who controls the walking? Or is there just the walking? Consider this deeply. Let me know what comes up.

A thought comes to get up. Or an impulse, not particularly conscious. I haven't made the thought happen or the impulse. They seem to just appear. I am aware of myself walking but the body does the walking. I am not in control of it. The walking is just there, movement of the body, taking care of itself. What I experience is a combination of thoughts, consciousness, impulses and physical sensations. I don't experience there being anything I could call a 'controller'.

2. Choose a drink eg tea/coffee/another drink or between a couple of objects eg blue pen/black pen/pencil. Then sit and see if you can find 'the self' who made that choice? If so, where exactly did that choice happen? Can you find a choicepoint (ie the location of choosing)? Try to describe the process of 'choosing'. Let me know what you find.

I had various thoughts about which pen to choose, the attractiveness of the different colours. The choice itself just happened. It felt like an impulse. It felt as if the choice made itself, after various thoughts about which pen to choose the choice just appeared kind of out of nowhere. I could'nt exactly say where it happened or identify a location of choosing. The choice seemed to just be part of the experience of me and the pens in relationship to each other.

looking forward to your reply,
Jonny

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

Gr.r.r.eat work!

A) Ok can we investigate a little further a couple of things you write re 1. and 2., just to be sure.

1. "A thought comes up to get up". 2. "I had various thoughts"

Are these 'my' thoughts? Is there anything there which proves that they are 'mine', (or anyone else's)? Or are they just thoughts? eg the attractiveness of the different colours of pens, can it truly be said that this shows a 'Jonny' for whom one colour is more attractive? Could that be conditioning, circumstances eg the green matched the plant behind, or 'I' have always said that blue was 'my' colour, the instruction of the exercise etc etc? Look deeply into these experiences of thoughts, and the invitation to identify. When the thought comes to get up, is this "Jonny's" thought, or just a thought? Consider deeply and then let me know what comes up, what feels true.

B) Now we will take this into the bodily sensations. Look down at one knee. Is that 'my' knee (any more than thoughts are 'my' thoughts: sure they appear to be happening 'here', but does that make them 'mine'?). Just touch the knee gently with one hand. Note the 'touching' sensation. Note the labels - my touching - my hand - my knee. Do these labels make them really mine? Once you go to the sensation behind the labels, is this 'my sensation' (any more than thoughts were 'my thoughts')? Look deeply into the sensing, noticing the labelling (and the conventional explaining we have been taught to do all our lives) then going back to the actual sensing. Is there a 'Jonny' that can own that sensing, or just the sensing? Spend time with this and then tell me honestly what feels real.

Cheers

Mark

[loom]

Hi Mark,
Busy day today. Am reflecting on the things you wrote but will give it a bit more time before I reply in full.
thanks, Jonny

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for letting me know. Look forward to hearing from you once you have reflected.

Cheers

Mark

[loom]

hi Mark,

Are these 'my' thoughts? Is there anything there which proves that they are 'mine', (or anyone else's)? Or are they just thoughts? eg the attractiveness of the different colours of pens, can it truly be said that this shows a 'Jonny' for whom one colour is more attractive? Could that be conditioning, circumstances eg the green matched the plant behind, or 'I' have always said that blue was 'my' colour, the instruction of the exercise etc etc? Look deeply into these experiences of thoughts, and the invitation to identify. When the thought comes to get up, is this "Jonny's" thought, or just a thought?

I experience sitting here, this is 'Jonny', a body, sensations, movement. Then there is the consciousness of the experience of sitting and sensing, of moving. That consciousness can reflect on the experiences it witnesses. Thoughts arise. Do they come from 'me'? Are they 'mine'? Not really. What I experience is the thought. It seems connected to the consciousness. They both are kind of 'around' all the physical sensations. But I don't experience any of it belonging to any other part of it. There is connection, association, but not ownership.

As for the choosing a colour… I cannot see any 'me' that is finding one thing more or less attractive than another. I can speculate about where the attraction comes from but really it is just experienced. It seems to just happen. It could be tied to a sense of 'Jonny' but not something that I would have previously defined as 'me', more a bunch of different elements which I would now recognise as being labelled 'Jonny'.

When a thought arises it seems to be just a thought. I can have other thoughts about it trying to tie it to something - 'my' past, 'my' habits and so on. But I don't mean this to suggest an actual 'me' in that process. It's like it is a habitual response to identify these experiences as 'mine'. When I look closely at the experience of thoughts, sensations, consciousness, I am not seeing an 'I' that is behind it all. Those things seem to appear and disappear of themselves .

Look down at one knee. Is that 'my' knee (any more than thoughts are 'my' thoughts: sure they appear to be happening 'here', but does that make them 'mine'?). Just touch the knee gently with one hand. Note the 'touching' sensation. Note the labels - my touching - my hand - my knee. Do these labels make them really mine? Once you go to the sensation behind the labels, is this 'my sensation' (any more than thoughts were 'my thoughts')? Look deeply into the sensing, noticing the labelling (and the conventional explaining we have been taught to do all our lives) then going back to the actual sensing. Is there a 'Jonny' that can own that sensing, or just the sensing?

Initially when I looked at my knee I had the response of 'that is my knee'. And when I moved my hand to touch my knee I had an even stronger sense of the hand being 'mine'. I have been watching that hand all my life. The habit of relating to those things I was witnessing was strong. But as I looked a while longer, both the knee and the hand became simply more colour, light, form and sensations. I also noticed how much older my hand looks compared to my assumption about it….

As I sit and watch and sense the touching, all the forms and the sensations of touch seem to just be. They don't belong to anything or anyone. I cannot say that there is an 'I' a 'Jonny' that is having these experiences - the sensing, the thoughts.


Mark I have a couple of questions for you. I feel that 'seeing' is already happening. I have been having profound experiences of a shift in perspective, of relaxation, letting go. But I have become aware of certain expectations I have of what kind of state I should be in with all this happening. While for much of the time I find myself feeling really happy, immersed in this new process of seeing, the other day I became quite angry about something. The anger was a reasonable response to what had happened and in fact it was probably the clearest, 'cleanest' experience of anger I have ever had. Yet I found myself having thoughts along the lines of 'if I'm really letting go of the belief in an 'I' then I shouldn't be getting angry.' I realised I have an expectation of living in a state of total calm and acceptance. I can reflect on this and accept that it is not necessarily like that. That all kinds of feelings are still likely to arise and that it will be the relationship to them that shifts, perhaps making it easier to let go. But I'd like to know what you think. I feel that I am just getting a dose of my long held expectations about what any kind of 'realisation' might be like.

Generally I am finding myself shifting between 'seeing' which is accompanied by quite deep relaxation, and then I slip back into habit for a while and become tenser. But along with this movement in and out of what I experience as 'seeing', I feel a bit like I am falling apart. It feels like one of the consequences of going through this process is a letting go that is at times really disorientating. Like on a deep level 'I' don't know who 'I' am anymore. Is that 'normal' ;-) ?

thanks, Jonny

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

Thanks once again for all of that, and for your frankness.

About your questions: many of the same issues and doubts arose here as seeing happened. Really, I would like you to answer those questions yourself. Near the beginning of our thread, I asked you about expectations. The 'spirituality scene' can invite many expectations as to how 'realisation' should and should not feel, often even just by people's manner, so by inference. So, Jonny, ask yourself:-

if I'm really letting go of the belief in an 'I' then I shouldn't be getting angry.

Is there a Jonny there, having the anger? Or is there just the anger sensation? Can Life only have part of the spectrum of emotions, or can it have the full spectrum? Is it ok for Life to chuckle? cry? seethe? mourn? smile? fear? feel drab? feel terrified? (of course these are all just labels, but you get the idea). Who would be there to stop it? Permit it? Judge it?

Generally I am finding myself shifting between 'seeing' which is accompanied by quite deep relaxation, and then I slip back into habit for a while and become tenser. But along with this movement in and out of what I experience as 'seeing', I feel a bit like I am falling apart. It feels like one of the consequences of going through this process is a letting go that is at times really disorientating.

Ahh, the crazy ride of Life! None of this is abnormal, Jonny. Who is getting tenser? Who is feeling relaxed? Who feels that they can hold on or not? Life will just do what it does, like it always has done, even when 'we' thought 'we' had a say in it.

So, can all expectations be dropped, and Life just do what it does?

Please let me know what comes up from all this, answering those questions. And any other issues you would like to raise?

Cheers

Mark

[loom]

Love the zen master answers Mark, thanks for all of that.

Is there a Jonny there, having the anger? Or is there just the anger sensation?

The anger is intense, as I guess any emotion can be, but I can see the quality of life there just doing what it does. Life living through 'me' as it does through everything around me. It is a kind of revolution in seeing, in experiencing to see that as it is, to let it be what it is and not fix it into this or that or 'me' .

The expectations are interesting. They are very familiar, the 'spirituality scene' does indeed nurture endless expectations, being free of anger and full of only love is a classic. It feels now that many expectations that I have carried around will perhaps start to fall away as I allow life to be.

Who is getting tenser? Who is feeling relaxed? Who feels that they can hold on or not?

Actually what I meant there was that when I 'relaxed' it felt like 'I' was allowing life to be as it is and so enjoying the richness, the colours, the energy. And then at other times, becoming 'tenser', the habit of fixing, of wanting to identify this experience as 'me' creeps back in. It is not that 'I' am getting tenser, more that 'I' am trying to hold onto being 'me' - fixed and separate. There is now a movement in and out of acceptance of what 'I' am seeing and witnessing.

So, can all expectations be dropped, and Life just do what it does?

Can they? 'I' don't have an answer to that. Maybe it is only in the dropping of them that it is possible to find out if they can all be dropped.

thanks again, Jonny

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

That's great.

Interesting in your previous post that you noticed the difference in how 'the hand' looked in reality as compared with the assumption about it. An opening here for life to reveal itself just as it is, with the interpretations and assumptions peeled/peeling away?

Now back to the current post:-

Actually what I meant there was that when I 'relaxed' it felt like 'I' was allowing life to be as it is and so enjoying the richness, the colours, the energy. And then at other times, becoming 'tenser', the habit of fixing, of wanting to identify this experience as 'me' creeps back in. It is not that 'I' am getting tenser, more that 'I' am trying to hold onto being 'me' - fixed and separate. There is now a movement in and out of acceptance of what 'I' am seeing and witnessing.

Yes, and when "I try to hold onto being me - fixed and separate", who or what is really doing that? Is that really Jonny, or is it simply Life at play, acting at Jonny (shrinking back a bit for a while)?

How does it feel to 'allow life to be'? Do you have any choice in the matter? Who is it that has any power to stop life from being or to allow life to be? Or is, even in this, Life just happening as it happens?

Seeing through the illusion of the self is just a beginning. Many dominoes can continue to fall, and layers of conditioning get stripped away, as Life does its crazy thing.

Do you have any further issues you would like to raise before I give you the final questions?

Cheers

Mark

[loom]

Hi Mark,

How does it feel to 'allow life to be'?

When life is just happening, or rather when 'I' am aware of life as it is - just happening - it is beautiful, fresh, open, relaxed. Everything seems new and fascinating. The shift in perspective is profound and yet subtle, everything seems extraordinary and ordinary at the same time.

Do you have any choice in the matter? Who is it that has any power to stop life from being or to allow life to be?

Do I have any choice? I guess that is just it. I've lived my life not believing in what is happening in and around me every minute, every day. So no, no choice, life is as it is, letting it be like that is a relief, no need to struggle, to hold on, to get confused. At the same time I am very aware of the habit of relating as if 'I' am doing any of this.

The past couple of days have been about absorbing what is happening, watching habitual responses arise. My expectations of what should be happening - no anger, being completely concentrated, totally at peace etc - now left hanging, seen but not yet dropped. In other ways my expectations fall a long way short of what the experience of seeing in this way would be - how could you guess what it would be like? When I read you were ready to give me the 'final questions' I found myself thinking 'Am I sure about this? Have I been making it up?' But how could I make up what has been going on since we started this process? The seeing, the effects of seeing have been there and are there, varying in intensity perhaps but not going away. That kind of thought process is just another habitual response, familiar, unnecessary.

I imagine that what comes next is the gradual letting go of those habits. Like you said it is just a beginning. Contrary to more of my previous expectations, it seems like this is where it all starts. Dominoes falling sounds apt. I am becoming aware of some of those dominoes standing very close, waiting to be knocked and fall away.

So yes, lots more issues, but no more questions

thanks again,
Jonny

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

That felt like a really honest, sincere response. Thank you.

Here are the questions for you to consider.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience, answering as fully as you can.

6) Anything to add?

Looking forward to receiving your answers.

Cheers

Mark

[loom]

Hi Mark,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate 'self' or 'I'. It is an illusion we live with that keeps us separated from fully living in the flow of life. Was there ever one? Not in my experience.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of 'self' is a construct of the mind that keeps us confined. I have been aware of the idea of 'no-self' for many years through my contact with Buddhism. Actually waking up to it was something that for various reasons I gave up on long ago. My experience until fairly recently was that I have been pretty much fully identified with the sensations that make up this sense of 'me'. I believed it all to be real and although I experienced it as a kind of prison and did in fact have some kind of access to the key, the identification with the 'self' kept me firmly locked in. When it starts is not something I have really thought about and is hard to say much about. I cannot say that I have any memories of not relating to life like that. Are we born with that restricted perspective? Is it something we learn and acquire in early childhood? Really I have no idea and am not sure it matters. All we can deal with is our experience as we find it now. Waking up can only happen now, so it is now that matters.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is a relief. When the seeing started to happen it was incredibly intense, all the hours that I was awake it was all I could think about. That intensity slowly eased but the relaxation that has come with the seeing has continued. In some ways the differences are subtle, nothing 'out there' has changed. There are still forms, I still experience thoughts, sensations and so on in relation to the world I am part of. Yet every day I feel more alive, more awake than I have ever experienced. I can sit or walk for hours just looking at everything, fascinated by everything around me - people, plants, the sky, buildings. Everything is suddenly worth investigating. It feels like waking up to the reality of life as it is and always was, vibrant and alive, complex and beautiful. It has left me feeling both exhilarated and disorientated. I feel like I now need to begin to find out who 'Jonny' is when set free to simply be part of life living.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

I began to have some sense of seeing things as they are, without the belief in an 'I', pretty much as soon as I started reflecting on the first set of questions you gave me. The real awakening moment came the next day when you were asking me about my relationship to an object and specifically you said 'where is the separation point' between the object and 'me'. When I saw there wasn't one I started laughing. The perspective had shifted and the world opened out before me.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience, answering as fully as you can.

No I don't control anything, I take part. Life is living and I am, we all are, part of that. Reflecting on movement, walking, reaching out, touching, I can see that there is just form, movement, touch, sensation. Reflecting on thoughts and feelings I see them arise and then fall away. All of these things, which previously I would have identified as 'me' and 'mine' are just there, not belonging, not fixed. They are part of the ongoing process that is life just living.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks Mark, I have really appreciated the way you have guided me through this process. You have been kind and clear and you laid the way out for me brilliantly. Each step followed naturally the one before and your comments and questions were always clear and helpful.

with love,
Jonny

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

It is a real privilege to accompany you.

Thank you for your answers.

Now I will ask other guides whether they have any questions. Then, once any questions are answered, you'll be invited to a forum or two in the Liberation Unleashed community, where you can find support for those who have passed 'through the gate'.

Maybe also, once things settle and you feel more secure in your seeing, and the understanding of it, you may even like to consider guiding others.

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

Hi Jonny,

Other guides are loving your clarity.

One has asked whether you could just give a couple of examples in the answer to Question 5. You said 'no, I don't control anything'. Please just have a go at trying to describe how, in these examples, deciding, controlling, choosing seem to happen without your doing them.

Cheers

Mark

[loom]

Hi Mark,

One has asked whether you could just give a couple of examples in the answer to Question 5. You said 'no, I don't control anything'. Please just have a go at trying to describe how, in these examples, deciding, controlling, choosing seem to happen without your doing them.

Ok a couple of examples from the past 10 or 15 minutes. I get up and walk into the kitchen. My body moves, doing everything I need to walk without any sense that I am controlling my movement. In the kitchen I see the grill and reach to put it away. A thought arose and my body moved. A choice was made but 'I' didn't make it. I feel the sensations of movement, of touch, I hear the sounds from outside the window. Feelings come in relation to these sensations, some I like and pay more attention to, others are not so interesting and are ignored. Thoughts arise about answering this question, feelings come in relationship to the thoughts. More thoughts arise in relation to those feelings. All of it just kind of appears, one thing after another, none of it with a sense of me controlling.

And again, now sitting here writing these words on my computer. I can touch type so again the movements happen without very much thought. Thoughts keep arising about what to say next and my fingers type the words. Other thoughts arise about whether what I am saying makes sense, whether I will be understood, believed. Feelings arise in relation to those thoughts. All of this ongoing process, which doesn't seem to end, one sensation (thoughts and feelings included) following another, seems to flow naturally and spontaneously. 'I' am not making it happen, I am not controlling this never-ending flow. Sometimes one thing appears to condition the next, leading to the next and so on. At other times thoughts, feelings, impulses arise as if out of nowhere and then take the process off in another direction. They are not choices 'I' am making but more like parts of life that I am taking part in if that makes sense.

To be honest i find that experience of no longer believing there is an 'I' controlling means I let go, relax, open. At the moment I find it allows me to see things afresh, my heart opens and I feel happy.

thanks, Jonny