guiding for Doff,

[smudge]

Hey Doff,

Nice to read, let zoom in:

I saw that the grass at the allotment had grown long.

What from DE is this "I" that see's the grass growing

A thought arose

Where from (DE) only!

Bird song arrives into my hearing

Describe this owner of hearing from DE

My body warm and snug in bed.

...and the owner of this snug body

I don't think I can choose what thoughts to think

I am not asking what thoughts are going on I am asking can thought DO anything, thoughts won't provide an accurate answer only deep looking will. Look: what place in the realm of action do thoughts have, can they provoke any action or are they just a description of whats going on anyway on automatic?

Love

[kay tremayne]

Hi Smudge,
Thanks for your message.
I wont be able to reply until tomorrow evening, just found that there were 2 pages to this document, another internet learning curve! I had logged on about 4 times during the day and didnt realise that there was another page, now its bed time, just wanted to let you know. x

[smudge]

Thanks for letting me know, sweet dreams. x

[kay tremayne]

Hi there,
There is no direct experience in 'I' the direct experience is the sense of sight that see's the long grass.

There is no direct experience in thought.

There is no owner of hearing from direct experience, just a flow of experience, process of sound.

This snug body doesnt have an owner.

Thoughts cant do anything, they dont have a place in the realm of action, they are just description or ideas, they cant do anything.
x

[smudge]

Thoughts cant do anything, they dont have a place in the realm of action, they are just description or ideas, they cant do anything

Yes!

There is no direct experience in 'I'

So what is I if its not an entity, it?

There is no direct experience in thought.

Really? or is thought just not what it seems to be...have a look..thoughts happen don't they?

There is no owner of hearing from direct experience, just a flow of experience, process of sound...This snug body doesnt have an owner/quote]
Nice :-)

[kay tremayne]

'I' is just a description created from the seen, the heard, the sensed and cognised,There is no 'I' as such.

Looking...thoughts happen, a thought is just a thought, they arise and pass each in direct experience. x

[smudge]

Can you say that YES it is clear that I is imagined that there is no separation and separate self is an illusion? If no, what is it that still needs to be looked at? And how does it feel to answer as you answer?
x

[kay tremayne]

Hi there,
YES, it is clear that 'I' is imagined, there is no separation, separate self is an illusion.

It feels a relief to answer this answer. x

[smudge]

Great stuff Doff!..so now please answer these standard questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?

xx

[kay tremayne]

Hi there,
1. No
2.In direct experience the idea or illusion of a separate self is felt in two ways, either through a sense of contraction i.e. a feeling of fear and insecurity may arise causing an invisible boundary between this illusory separate self and other people or at other times there may be a sense of expansion i.e. a feeling of joy arising and there's a sense of being a part of everyone.
3.It feels exhilarating to see this much more clearly now. When we started the dialogue there was a sense of understanding what we were dialoging about, that it was known and understood. Now there is a sense of clarity of what is meant by no self, like a mirror has been cleaned.
4.It wasn't 'one last bit' that pushed me over' more that the whole process we have undertaken made me Look

5.I don't decide, intend, choose control events in life, I don't make anything happen, there is just a flow , a process of conditions arising and falling.
6. nothing to add x

3.

[smudge]

Thanks thats clear, nice to hear the unprompted area of no boundaries in there too. Just need examples for Q:5 please, then I will check if the other guides have any questions.
Love, Smudge

[kay tremayne]

Hi Smudge,
Sorry I missed the examples on Q5

When 'I' see that the window is dirty due to salt spray carried by the wind and rain, a thought arises, along with the desire to clean it. ( Intend)

Walking along the sand shore of Littlehampton West beach, feeling the damp sensation of gritty sand under my feet, stepping energetically, walking a long distance. Stop and eat delicious lunch. Walking a long distance back to the car, feeling fatigued and upset. There is no control over this ageing body. (Control)

When tending the allotment various vegetables could be planted but there is not enough space for many varieties, environmental conditions determine what is planted along with a desire for certain tastes and textures.(choice)

A sensation of hunger in 'my' stomach arises while writing a letter. Walk to the kitchen see the ryvita peanut butter and jam, spread peanut butter and jam on the ryvita, saliva begins to arise in my mouth. Begin to eat, hunger is soon assuaged. (Decide)
x

[smudge]

A sensation of hunger in 'my' stomach arises while writing a letter. Walk to the kitchen see the ryvita peanut butter and jam, spread peanut butter and jam on the ryvita, saliva begins to arise in my mouth. Begin to eat, hunger is soon assuaged. (Decide)

Sounds like it all just happened, so are you saying there is no decision?

[smudge]

There is another question, so the one above and this one please.

"a feeling of fear and insecurity may arise causing an invisible boundary between this illusory separate self and other people"

What happens when a feeling of fear arises now? Can you find the "invisible boundary" in DE? What is your actual experience of "other people"?

[kay tremayne]

Hi,
There is no decision, there is desire, impulses, sensations which contribute to things happening.

When a feeling of fear arises it is felt within this body, there is an awareness of fear, the body tenses up. Experiencing the feeling of fear, feeling it, letting it be and experiencing it pass away.

There is no finding of the invisible boundary.

Experience of other people is multifaceted, experience of other people as beings with bodies, sight, senses, hearing cognition. There is a sense of being part of everyone.
x