Looking for some direction

[Brant]

I began looking for another me to take the place of the one that seems like it is just an idea and always has been. I'll continue looking but post again tomorrow. After starting with so much muddle and lethargy from sitting in front of a computer all day I ended up with the most clarity I've had so far. Excited about progress here.

[Freddi]

Hi Brant,

My first reaction was - yes there is a character called Brant, and this character exists in thought, but the part where the mind takes that and points to a me doesn't appear to be real - ie there's nothing there. Then I realised the character is simply content of thought and is no more real than a cartoon. If there is no Brant. If Brant is just an idea, and always was an idea... images of my past and childhood pop up and seem like a movie and a fiction. This line of looking focussed me all of a sudden. My physiology actually changes I find when I'm on track - muscles around the head/neck/sinus let go. I'll look some more now.

Wow, that's a great example of looking at what is ACTUALLY happening in the present experience, the only one we can test.

Ok... mind went to re-attach a new me to something else... if I am just an idea and always was... 'then what am i now' was what came up. 'Then what is this body'

See how the mind aims to conceptualise, own the experience? You see clearly the experience of what IS happening, then the commentary on it, which is NOT happening, only conceptually. This is habitual thinking. It can and will kick in to protect its most deeply held beliefs, like "I am the body". A bit like an engine that continues running on empty after switching off, it continues turning even if seen to be false. Don't try to avoid it, don't push it away, welcome it, see what it wants to say, be grateful for its protection, see that what it aims to protect was never there in the first place.

Excited about progress here

Excitement all around, then!

'what is the centralised sensory experience' Am I an experiencer separate but within experience

OK time to go back to an exercise from an earlier post. Go for another walk (this time with a notebook) and with each experience presenting itself, try to find a line of separation between the experiencer (say, this character called Brant), and the experienced, say a tree, a birdsong, the wet grass etc. Whatever it is that presents itself during this walk, look for that line of separation. Is it halfway? Is it right by the tree, or right by Brant? Is it Brant's skin? Is the air between Brant and the tree "observed" or "observer"? And what of the body, is that "observer" or "observed"?
Then do this as often as possible, at work, at home, while eating dinner, walking the dog or whatever. Do it with feelings, sensations. Can you find a separate experiencer?
This contact with the immediate, intimate present experience is your only door to what IS.

Fred

[Brant]

I started out thinking the question was easy, but it shined up a few blind spots. Experience happens then the mind takes ownership of having done the experiencing - very quickly. I go for a walk, and it takes 10-20 mins just to get out of a thought funk - watching thoughts helps - nothing too intense. Now I'm home and I split my time between looking (away from the computer) and trying to recollect what happened during that time.

Ok looking now for a bit. The experience of the body can't happen to the body - it doesn't make sense. How can I be the body - which includes the foot, if the foot has to experience the foot. Doesn't make sense.

Was trying to find the experiencer. The body can't experience the body --> the body isn't the experiencer. What is experiencing thought? That is a tough one. Need to look further.

Don't have the oomph this time. A plane flew by and it felt like the experience was happening just outside the skin - that was the thought conceptual image the brain was producing. I need to keep watching this. I'll post again tonight if anything changes.

[Brant]

I keep getting tripped up by an assumption that there is a me looking for the allegedly absent me. 'I am the searcher looking for whether me exists'.

[Freddi]

Now I'm home and I split my time between looking (away from the computer) and trying to recollect what happened during that time

That's why this deep looking only works in the present experience, even trying to recollect what happened is a memory, so a thought reconstruction. While out on a walk, a notebook is a great help for this. Always try and stay with what IS real in the present moment.

What is experiencing thought? That is a tough one.

Is it conceivable that the thought is experienced, without any "experiencer"? Look at thoughts as experiences, without getting involved or invested in the content of them, as though they were clouds passing. Don't need to go into the story they tell. Stay with the experience of them, maybe they have a shape, a colour, a feeling attached? Question the thought that says that there must be an experiencer. See if you can find any evidence of that in the experiencing itself.

A plane flew by and it felt like the experience was happening just outside the skin

Let's see if you can experience this skin that your brain is producing as a conceptual image. When you have read these words, go somewhere and sit quietly, close your eyes, and see if you can experience the limits of "you", where do "you" start and end? Can you feel, experience your skin/limits? If a sound is heard, see where the actual experiencing of it is happening, before the thought "outside the skin" kicks in. Is the experiencing remote or is it right here?

I look forward to your further post today if anything else comes up.

Fred

[Freddi]

I keep getting tripped up by an assumption that there is a me looking for the allegedly absent me.

It is just that, an assumption. An assumption is the mind joining the dots to try and make sense of it. Stay with WHAT IS, investigate, question that assumption, who or what is it that is invested in there being a "me" looking and searching? Where is it felt?

And rub out that word "allegedly" in "the allegedly absent me" ;-)

Fred

[Brant]

I tuned into the frequency for a while there... that gap between thought but where you can still steer intention. What directs me well towards the unknown is 'what if... what if there really is no me... really is no experiencer.... how will this moment seem'.

There's something in teh way but i still don't know what. Will try get in the zone again tomorrow.

[Freddi]

what if... what if there really is no me... really is no experiencer.... how will this moment seem

That's a good place to look, investigate this with interest and curiosity, see if there is any sensation, feeling coming up in your immediate experience. Invite and welcome the sensation, be it fear, anxiety or whatever. Stay with it for a while. See if there is anything behind it, anything it is trying to protect.
Good job, Brant!

Fred

[Brant]

Went for a walk... saw that time and distance exist really only as a thought-concept. But that's a bit of track sort of.

There is a gap I think I'm supposed to look with results in a physical reaction. I'm not sure it's fear but some sort of apprehension and it causes me to de-rail as my attention then switches to the reaction taking place... and now I think about it - a concept of me reacting.

This happens when I try to see the line where hearing happens. Or where seeing happens. Looking again.

Couldn't retune back in... taking a break.

[Freddi]

Hi Brant,

I'm not sure it's fear but some sort of apprehension and it causes me to de-rail as my attention then switches to the reaction taking place... and now I think about it - a concept of me reacting

From your recent posts, it is clear that you do see the absence of "me" except as a concept in thought, and that what the thought tells you about you, time, distance, does not reflect what is intimately, immediately experienced.
You are already seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, feeling in direct experience, 100% of the time. No effort required. It is always there. Only your thinking tells you otherwise. And there is more effort required in following that thinking that tells you "I am supposed to look" than in the simple relaxing, resting and settling into the natural, ever-present sensorial experience. Earlier, you mentioned how your muscles around the neck and head relax when you let go.
Keep looking. Can you see a difference, a demarcation between what is happening: thoughts coming and going, feelings, sensations, and what is not happening: the content of the thought, the story within it?

Fred

[Freddi]

Hello again Brant,
OK let's look more deeply in this direction, the whole thinking experience.
Can you see who or what is thinking?
Observe thoughts. Sit with closed eyes and watch how thoughts come up and go.
Is there a thinker, a character sitting there, who receives thoughts?
Or is there just thinking happening?

Can you stop a thought from coming?
Can you know what the next thought will be?
Can you choose and think the thoughts you like?
Is a thought "I" any different from other thoughts? Not talking about the content of the thought, here, remember?
Can a thought think?

Please observe and write what you notice.
For sure, "thought funk" (your words) do and will happen. Nothing wrong with that. I find that a good belly laugh at them is a good release technique.
Fred

[Brant]

Tackling thought and the thinker was a good one... I lied down and closed my eyes as suggested and just watched... it took time to disengage from the thought and just observe. There is often an image of a thinker which pops up as the owner of the thought... but soon after watching for a while the gap opens up and it becomes more obvious.

I may need more time to observe on this topic.

Conceptually - I think I've been down this path before - thoughts cannot think, and thoughts are just daisy-chained one after the other from whatever stimulus. But I need to see how it all works in direct experience. It's tough with seeing thought in direct experience - so easy to get sucked into using thought to figure out thought - confusing!

So the thought-mage of 'me as a thinker' popped up when i asked the question who or what is the thinker... then I thought 'where is this 'me'' within thought... it's a minefield of traps getting sucked into conceptualising things.

Ok a little bit of clarity. The origin of thought is an assumption. I don't think I can ever find where thought comes from. It just happens.

Pushed again floating the question 'if I were just an idea, could it be true?' and got some real focus but lost it. Can't concentrate now.

[Freddi]

The origin of thought is an assumption. I don't think I can ever find where thought comes from. It just happens.

Bingo. It's that simple.
Keep looking into the other questions I asked yesterday and write what you SEE, not what you think.

Can't concentrate now.

No effort required, remember, just relax into it.
See what comes up and look for that elusive thinker.

[Freddi]

Not sure why the quote says "Freddi wrote" ... these are your words, not mine!

[Brant]

Can you see who or what is thinking?

I feel so lazy tonight but thought I'd give it another push. I dwelled on this one... and it's the equivalent to the hearing and seeing question which opened up the gap. Sinus releases - good sign!

I have nothing to report other than I know this is a good direction to look.