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[Satyaprakash]

Hi Nona
It is becoming clearer that their is no seperate me here and something else over there. Just the arising of sounds, sights, sensations, thoughts we call memories and thoughts called the future. Images popping up in nowhere. Meaning being attached to the arising of the 5 senses and thoughts.just a cluster of thoughts creating a story.

Nona, here at Barnes and Noble enjoying the space. As this deepens, how does one adjust to being nobody?

[Satyaprakash]

Good morning Nona,

Here now ready for what comes up. I replied yesterday to your last post but it didn't post I don't think. I was sitting in Barnes and Noble reading your pointers and doing the exercise: looking for a boundary (with eyes closed). I couldn't find a division between skin and world, or where sensation began and ended. Sounds arose, clinking, jibberish, thoughts. It was fascinating to observe thoughts being applied to bare sensation. When I opened my eyes, I maintained the exercise. Again, able to see people without the heavy storyline. There was still commentary, but much less layered. Sometimes just a form passing by without the questioning, guessing, or creating a story of what "they" may be thinking and believing. That- "I"- a "self " had to make adjustments in "my" behavior. I went out in the mall area. I went in and out of this, (is perception a correct word?) Me-ness eventually became predominant, but it felt like I could bring back the other way of looking through conscious will or intention.

Today, when I awoke and began going about my daily routine, yesterday's events felt like a memory. It seems though, that "I" can fall away some by using the exercises. Is this moving in the right direction or am I playing a game of seeking enjoyable states of mind?

[nonaparry]

Hi Satya!

As this deepens, how does one adjust to being nobody?

No need; you never were a somebody. What you are has not changed.

I couldn't find a division between skin and world, or where sensation began and ended. Sounds arose, clinking, jibberish, thoughts. It was fascinating to observe thoughts being applied to bare sensation. When I opened my eyes, I maintained the exercise. Again, able to see people without the heavy storyline. There was still commentary, but much less layered. Sometimes just a form passing by without the questioning, guessing, or creating a story of what "they" may be thinking and believing.

Excellent! NOW you are looking, observing!

That- "I"- a "self " had to make adjustments in "my" behavior. I went out in the mall area. I went in and out of this, (is perception a correct word?) Me-ness eventually became predominant, but it felt like I could bring back the other way of looking through conscious will or intention.

It's a matter of focus. When you focus on sensation-prior-to-thought, there is no thought; all there is, is sensation.
You can always shift focus to sensation.

Notice what happens when you see people and events "without the heavy storyline". LOOK at what is actually happening without the story.
Over the next day, pay attention to what is actually happening without a story. Without a story, without thought, is there a "you"?

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Morning Nona,
Thanks again for the pointers. The exercise you suggested, to shift my focus to sensation-before-thought when seeing people and events, reminds me of a Buddhist technique. One of the ways a practitioner would apply his attention, or mindfulness. To body sensation. Outside of that, I'm having difficulty with the concept of life just flowing without choices being made. It sounds like pre-destiny. I get it, there is no "I" running the show, but...who or what is? Is this some sort of karmic momentum?

[nonaparry]

Hi Satya,

I'm having difficulty with the concept of life just flowing without choices being made.

Describe for me how choices get made. What chooses? How is choosing done? Does choosing affect how life happens?
Take a small decision you believe you have made recently. Describe in detail how you went about the decision process.

As you go about your day, notice whether "you" make decisions at all. How does life happen the way it does? Do all decisions alter life in some way? Or can a decision happen without life following its suggestion?

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Hello Nona,

Describe for me how choices get made

For instance, at the start of the day, one plans what one is going to do. A choice is made to get out of bed at a certain time, go to the front room, exercise, meditate, and then do the next thing,... or not. These appear to be choices, made by I don't know. There seems to be an act of volition involved.

I try to catch myself making choices, but the moment passes before I can actually see the process of choosing taking place. I know I can't figure this out mentally.

Here is a for instance in real time, right now: I'm feeling tense and a little tired. " I think I'll take a break and return to the questions in the morning with more freshness. Maybe there will be more energy to inquire? " This is a choice being made. Doesn't this show some kind of volition?

Thank you for your guidance,

Satya

[nonaparry]

Hi Satya,

These appear to be choices, made by I don't know. There seems to be an act of volition involved.

I point your attention to the words you have selected here: appear, and seems. There is a good reason for using this language when there is no evidence at all for choices in sensation! You don't even know what is apparently making "a choice"!

Here is a for instance in real time, right now: I'm feeling tense and a little tired. " I think I'll take a break and return to the questions in the morning with more freshness. Maybe there will be more energy to inquire? " This is a choice being made. Doesn't this show some kind of volition?

No; you are not describing "a choice being made" — you are describing one thought, then another thought, and still another thought.
HOW does thought "show some kind of volition"? Which sensations are present during volition? Which sensations are present during moving the focus from sensation of tension and tiredness to a story about "freshness" in a future? Check it!

What is special about volition, anyway? You imagine you make a choice and that it results in something. But does it?
Please do this exercise.
Sit comfortably and quietly. While you are sitting calm and relaxed, make "a choice" to rise and touch the wall. Continue sitting quietly while you "choose". Continue sitting quietly.

Now tell me, was a choice made? How? By what? Is responding to my instructions "making a choice" on your part? Or is it simply flowing with Life?
Could it be that Life is showing up in this moment as my instructions and as your compliance? Is any choice needed at all in order to comply with my instructions??
What happened when the choice was "made" but the body remained sitting? Does this mean a choice to rise and touch the wall was not made? Check it!

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Hello Nona:)

I'm ready to dig deep. This one is challenging. I feel I need to run this persistent belief to the end of the line. Need to get clear on this! It seems if I can lift this veil, there is possibly some great insight behind it. Please forgive the abundant use of " I " pronouns. I "realize" they are not "actual". Would like to respond now with less layers of thought. Less thought of how to construct a sentence to sound more nondual.

I point your attention to the words you have selected here: appear, and seems.

It's true, I don"t know what is making the choices. "Selection" of wording may be me trying to be non-dually correct. However, it feels more accurate usage to convey that I am not concretely sure of "what is".

No; you are not describing "a choice being made" — you are describing one thought, then another thought, and still another thought.
HOW does thought "show some kind of volition"?

I have to admit, I had overlooked that they too are just thoughts.But it seems so convincing when the body complies by taking action, getting out of bed, exercising, meditating, moving on to the next thing... or not, that it somehow constitutes a directive being given by the mind and the body following suit.

Which sensations are present during volition? Which sensations are present during moving the focus from sensation of tension and tiredness to a story about "freshness" in a future? Check it!

I don't know if I was aware of sensation. Are you saying that loss of contact with sensation can be cause of the arising of "thought" and the sense of "I" ? In sensation there are no stories. Impossible that there could be a future!Even planning on paper: goals, grocery list, things to do lists, are thoughts arising? So what about physical action...just thought ? Fuzzy here. Maybe just thoughts of a body moving in space, thinking an "I" is taking action ?

Sit comfortably and quietly. While you are sitting calm and relaxed, make "a choice" to rise and touch the wall. Continue sitting quietly while you "choose". Continue sitting quietly.

Now tell me, was a choice made? How? By what? Is responding to my instructions "making a choice" on your part? Or is it simply flowing with Life?
Could it be that Life is showing up in this moment as my instructions and as your compliance? Is any choice needed at all in order to comply with my instructions??

In following the instructions, this is what happened: A thought arose in the form of way-in-the-background-voice, telling me to rise and touch the wall. At the same time a thought arose as a quick visual of my body getting up and moving towards the wall. At the same time there was a sensation which the mind quickly applied a label called, "impulse to move" . Finally, the thought arose "stay seated", then the thought-image of the body staying seated. Trying to figure all of this out is just more thought, isn't it? Even when I believe this is an intuitive knowing that will come to me, is still a story, isn't it? It feels like waiting patiently for dawn to arise.

[nonaparry]

Hi Satya,

Please forgive the abundant use of " I " pronouns. I "realize" they are not "actual".

There is no problem with pronouns; every language on the planet (except two) use them. As long as you are clear exactly to what they point when you use them, by all means use them!

It's true, I don"t know what is making the choices. "Selection" of wording may be me trying to be non-dually correct. However, it feels more accurate usage to convey that I am not concretely sure of "what is".

Please don't try to be non-dually "correct" in our conversation. What I ask from you is complete honesty. That means no non-dual translations, please. If you don't like how it sounds to you, then investigate whether it's true before you write it.

No; you are not describing "a choice being made" — you are describing one thought, then another thought, and still another thought.
HOW does thought "show some kind of volition"?

I have to admit, I had overlooked that they too are just thoughts.But it seems so convincing when the body complies by taking action, getting out of bed, exercising, meditating, moving on to the next thing... or not, that it somehow constitutes a directive being given by the mind and the body following suit.

That's the Story thought tells: that there is a directive and the action is the consequence of the directive. But notice! Both the directive and the action — or lack of action — are simply part of the flow of Life.
If the directive is a thing given by the mind, where does the mind get it from?

In sensation there are no stories. Impossible that there could be a future! Even planning on paper: goals, grocery list, things to do lists, are thoughts arising? So what about physical action...just thought ? Fuzzy here. Maybe just thoughts of a body moving in space, thinking an "I" is taking action ?

Excellent observation! Can you answer your own question?

Trying to figure all of this out is just more thought, isn't it? Even when I believe this is an intuitive knowing that will come to me, is still a story, isn't it?

Yes, yes. So good to notice!!!
As you go about your day, I want you to pay attention to the differences between the Story and what-is-actually-happening at the time. Write me about one or two events in your day, describing what actually happened and then the story thought told about it.


Try to spend some time in nature in the next day or two. Notice plants growing, birds flying, animals moving. Does nature happen with a story attached? Or are plants, birds, animals simply part of Life living itself?

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

HI Nona,
I was in the middle of a detailed post to you, and I was signed out and lost it. I'm not the quickest typist, but I think from now on I may first hand write my thoughts before dictating them on paper. There are some things I have to do, then I will touch base later.

Satya

[Satyaprakash]

Hello Nona,

Sorry for the gap in response and thank you for your kind, patient guidance. I'm going to get right to responding to your last instructions.

As you go about your day, I want you to pay attention to the differences between the Story and what-is-actually-happening at the time. Write me about one or two events in your day, describing what actually happened and then the story thought told about it.

The most obvious was upon receiving an email from my daughter and believing that I sensed some kind of irritation or antagonism in her words. After looking closer, it was so clear that it was thought telling a story of a past incident and the mind believing that she must be still holding a grudge.

On another occasion, I found myself giving advice, " be careful how you give criticism to administrators, they don't like to have their faces rubbed in it". Before the words could get out of my mouth I knew it was a "lie" of the mind.

I have to say, Nona, all evidence points to there being no-self. Even on the more subtle day to day existence level, there is no-body here. There is just this-SOMETHING, I'm sure it is a thought, that tells me in order to have truly seen, ther must be more of an event. Could you help me with this. Is this common. Will doubt still arise? What do I do when it does? Suffering, negative feelings

Satya

[Satyaprakash]

Dear Nona,
Must there be some big, definitive boom, that is a once and for all knowing. There is a felt sense that there is nothing separate here. I want to know that I am not creating another belief system.
Satya

[nonaparry]

Dearest Satya,

all evidence points to no self

We amass evidence, yes, but seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not a matter of logic! Thought tells us all kinds of lies about how Life *should* be. The best thing for us to do is to LOOK with all our senses at what-is-actually-happening in any moment.
At any moment, do you observe a Self? Ever? Only by LOOKing with all the senses, and EVERYwhere, can you SEE that there is no such entity as a self!

So what IS there? WHAT is it that has been masquerading as a self for all these years? You must LOOK directly at this and notice what is actually happening. Where does the story of self originate? How is it maintained? OBSERVE with all the senses and tell me what you see!

There is just this-SOMETHING, I'm sure it is a thought, that tells me in order to have truly seen, ther must be more of an event.

Yes; we are so easily addicted to the idea that no self is somehow special, different, unique and thus deserves bells, lights and whistles. In fact, no self is as much a fact of Life as weather or gravity! Do we expect an Event to tell us there is gravity? Do we insist on an event to signal weather?

The addiction to Specialness can lead us to expect all manner of 'significant' physical and mental events surrounding Liberation. But Specialness is not a hallmark of Liberation; in fact, the notion that WE or Liberation is somehow Special is one of the strongest obstacles to seeing through the illusion!
When the illusion that one is a separate self has been well and truly exposed, there is nothing that yearns for "more of an event". What would be the point?

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Dear Nona,
Thank you for your directness and patience with me. Perhaps I am a knuckle head with the best intentions of seeing through, but I beg of you to even be more specific.

The best thing for us to do is to LOOK with all our senses at what-is-actually-happening in any moment.
At any moment, do you observe a Self?

OK, with all my senses, I cannot observe a self and no self somehow sees that there is no self looking.

Only by LOOKing with all the senses, and EVERYwhere,

I beleive I have looked. After looking at all of the so-called external world, I have turned the microscope closer, to the body, the sensations. I can't find an "I". Are these like meditations where I might sit on a couch and methodically go through each part. Am I still looking with logic or...

So what IS there? WHAT is it that has been masquerading as a self for all these years? You must LOOK directly at this and notice what is actually happening. Where does the story of self originate? How is it maintained? OBSERVE with all the senses and tell me what you see!

I feel like I've been bamboozled by the mind. I'm at a standstill, don't know what to say, I DONT SEE ANYTHING. Can't answer the question.

The addiction to Specialness can lead us to expect all manner of 'significant' physical and mental events surrounding Liberation. But Specialness is not a hallmark of Liberation; in fact, the notion that WE or Liberation is somehow Special is one of the strongest obstacles to seeing through the illusion!

I must have some expectation that when seen through all shadows of a doubt will be gone. Like there will be this iron clad knowing. This is my impression of the pointers I have seen speaking. You all seem so confident! A confidence I fear I do not have!!:)
Satya

[nonaparry]

Hi Satya,

I beg of you to even be more specific.

About what? ALL I can do is Point; the Looking is your job.

What do you mean by

no self somehow sees that there is no self looking

Do you find any no-self in direct experience?

I beleive I have looked. After looking at all of the so-called external world, I have turned the microscope closer, to the body, the sensations. I can't find an "I". Are these like meditations where I might sit on a couch and methodically go through each part. Am I still looking with logic or...

Looking is not a belief; it is just like looking for a cell phone in your pocket — you just look.
These are definitively not meditations; the exercises are for observing with all the senses, not for thinking!
Logic is what creates the illusion in the first place. We believe that language has a one-to-one correspondence with Reality and therefore imagine that because language has subject/object, that so does Reality. But in direct experience there is no subject/object.

I feel like I've been bamboozled by the mind.

Well yes, it's part of socialisation, conditioning.

What is it that creates a sense of "I"? Where do you find the story of "I" being told? If you can't find one in sensation, what does that leave?

I must have some expectation that when seen through all shadows of a doubt will be gone. Like there will be this iron clad knowing.

Did you believe in Santa Claus when you were a child? In unicorns? In Batman? Do you have an ironclad knowing that these are all fictional?
Same with self.
When you see clearly that no self can be located in experience, and observe how the idea of self is created in thought, there is no doubt that self is as fictional as any of these characters.

love
Nona