Alex

[Alexw]

some six seconds before mind even comes into play, how can you (self) get rid of anything ?

Yes, very interesting... sounds a bit like we are all not consciously living in the NOW but 6 seconds in the past... I wonder if this is the time where raw awareness is coloured in and the I is added to the mix..?
But how should we be able to get of anything that is decided before mind comes into play (e.g. the I)??? Does not seem possible.

Is there an experiencer, separate from the experienced ?

No, the experiencer is the experience - I think I realised this by seeing that I always (falsely) believed that the experience of e.g. the sound of a bird singing has to be connected to the concept of the whole bird and thus the experiencer can not be the experience (the whole bird). When braking it down into what is really experienced (take away concept of bird) it rather is only a sound that generates a pattern in the brain - the pattern of experience of the sound which is the only real experience there is - no bird, no I that hears a bird. Does that make sense?
Anyway, only once the illusion of I comes up (including all the concepts of I as well as the bird) and postulates itself as the experiencer the experience seems to be separate. I do see now that there is no I as an experiencer and that the experience is generated in the physical organism / brain and that this experience would not exist without this experiencer.

[vinceschubert]

But how should we be able to get of anything that is decided before mind comes into play

Conditions. Conditioning. Choices are made. Decisions happen. Just not by any self.
Consider the decision to satisfy a thirst. There is a sensation in the mouth. In the back of your mind (interesting terminology, aye ?) a decision to get a drink of water, or milk, or a beer happens. What conditions would contribute to what kind of thirst quencher ?
Would some of those conditions reside in history ?
Could you even go back to your parents attitude and the way they influenced you as a child ?
What about their parents and how they were affected by them ?
Would it be true to say that the condition of the bacteria in the gut of your great, great, grandmother played a role in the conditions that contributed to the choice that Alex made about how he would quench his thirst ?
In fact, is there anything that has ever happened, ever, anywhere, to anything, that is not involved in how things are today ? It would only take one thing anywhere, ever, to have been different, and things couldn't be as they are. Right ?

When braking it down into what is really experienced (take away concept of bird) it rather is only a sound that generates a pattern in the brain - the pattern of experience of the sound which is the only real experience there is - no bird, no I that hears a bird. Does that make sense?

Yes, absolutely. Now let's go one step further. With the hearing of that sound, you might say that there is only hearing. Right ? But that is to objectify the experience. In actual fact the experiencing is that there is only sound as experience. YOU ARE SOUND ! The experiencing is the sound(ing). Your whole BEing is the sound. Only afterwards (maybe milliseconds) when it is pure thought (memory) is it objectified and mind says it happened to Alex.
Don't believe what i say here. LOOK ! Listen to anything that comes into the ears of Alex and as it is occurring, does anything besides that sound(ing) exist ?
Now you get a glimpse, a taste of Oneness(ing)...

love

vince

[Alexw]

Decisions happen. Just not by any self.

Yes, life flows and decisions are part of the flow. I see that there is no I in the equation - just the flow. I only hope that life does not suddenly make the decision that Alex should drink battery acid - I would rather have a cold beer :-)

LOOK ! Listen to anything that comes into the ears of Alex and as it is occurring, does anything besides that sound(ing) exist ?

I have been sitting on the sofa for a couples of hours in the afternoon, just listening and watching the world go by. What you just wrote is exactly what I experienced. There is only sound and vision and smell - no I anywhere. Furthermore it felt like the whole mix of sound, vision and smell were coming together into one experience - everything fusing. It felt like everything, including my body, just being one experience. I think this might really have been a taste of one-ness. Since then I do also feel a strange space like emptiness which seems to "contain a peaceful feeling"..? Don't really know how to describe it... strange...

[Alexw]

Even I do think I understand that "life flows" and decisions are made without an I being involved - or maybe before the brain can put together the illusion of I and connect it to the decision - I still often feel that I make a decision... will that change over time? will there be just decision making without the I getting involved to discuss options?

[vinceschubert]

I still often feel that I make a decision... will that change over time?

Who (is there to) knows ? Is that feeling the result of believing that the illusion is actual ? Is this habit ? Can you, on one hand, have that feeling, and at the same time recognize that the decision was the result of dependent conditions ?

will there be just decision making without the I getting involved to discuss options?

If the I is known to be an illusion, what would be a more accurate description of "the I getting involved" ? Describe from what is noticed, not thoughts.

love vince

[Alexw]

I am confused and frustrated... I feel like I am back at the start. Maybe I am pushing myself back into the pit...
At the moment nothing makes much sense anymore. Will try to write later on.

[vinceschubert]

That's ok. Confusion & frustration are good at revealing identification with that spectre of self. Welcome it (in spite of the unpleasant sensations they bring)
Life-ing is the full spectrum of possible emotions. They all have value.

love

vince

[Alexw]

Yes... I think I am just frustrated and angry that all I seem to do is build intellectual beliefs about the no-self and try to convince myself that this is how it is, but at the end this is not working. And why should it work? You can't convince something - a "myself" - that does not exist, that is just a chain of thought... you can build a belief and hang on to it, but this won't work either - its only self deceit.
I don't know when/if the EXPERIENCE that there is no self will happen - its easy to build and believe in the concept of no-self but experience has to happen...

[vinceschubert]

Good stuff Alex. Ask yourself , if I is an illusion, what can be done except watching the process ? (or not)

love vince

[vinceschubert]

(not) You are right on course...

What comes up when considering; This Is IT ?

[Alexw]

I was out for a run... while running there was experience, the physical sensation of running, the feeling of the wind on the skin, smell of the ocean... then I was again thinking "who is running...". I was straining to find a separate I/self that is doing the running, but it could not be found. Everything real can be experienced, but as the I/self is not real, it can not be experienced. Thus it can also not drop away! There is no experience of dropping the I as the I is not real anyway! The thought of realising that there is no experience of dropping of an I that does not exist is itself the experience!

What comes up when considering; This Is IT ?

No I, no dropping of I!

[Alexw]

Vince,
after this mornings experience I started thinking about the term "Gateless Gate" and what it means - I started writing down some thoughts - the following text emerged:

The Gateless Gate – The Experience of No Experience
The first step on the path to enlightenment is the realisation that there is no separate self, no I. The Gateless Gate refers to a gate that someone, who wants to realise that there is no self, has to pass through to achieve this realisation.
What is the Gate? Where is it and what is it made of?
The Gate is experience; it’s as simple as that. Experience is reality. It includes sensual experiences like smell or taste, physical sensations, feelings and thoughts (yes, also thought is experienced).
Now try to find something that is not an experience – something that is not real…
Got something? Lets see, how about Superman (or Santa or whatever you come up with)? Is he real? No! Can he be experienced? No! You can only put together a thought construct, a concept, of something you believe Superman would be like. So there is no Superman, but there are maybe a billion different concepts of Superman in peoples’ brains, but this still does not make Superman real!
How about the I, the separate self? Is that real? Can you experience it? If you think you can than analyze the experience and see what you find… is it only a feeling, a thought, a concept built on thought? Do this for a while and eventually you will see there is no experience of an I. So what now? You seem to know that there is no I and you start to build a believe that this is so, but the I is not so easily put away. It requires an experience that there actually is no I to really make it sink in! But how do you experience something that is not? Seems to be a paradox, doesn’t it?
So you continue looking for an I that can be dropped or you look for a magical dropping experience to happen so as to experience the glorious “no-self” (isn’t this what all the Zen books talk about – let the I drop off…). But no matter what you do, you can’t find this no-self nor can you experience the dropping of the self. So how can you get rid of the self to experience this getting rid of?
How about: There is no experience of getting rid of the I as there is no I in the first place! The thought itself, the realisation that there is no experience for the dropping of the I is itself the experience! This is the Gateless Gate – the experience of no experience!

[vinceschubert]

Alex, good to see this. i will ask you about the gate again soon. It will be interesting to see the difference.
achieve this realisation. Is a realisation achieved or discovered ?
Experience is reality. Just to be pedantic here, An experience is a memory. It is past, finished. Now just thoughts. (current) experiencing is what is real.
and you start to build a believe that this is soWell seen. ...and of course, any belief is built on thought. Some people identify with a no-self. Is this any different to identifying with a self ? Is a no-self just a different version of a self ?
Seems to be a paradox, doesn’t it?ha, yes. (seeming)Paradoxes abound in Reality.
This brings me to what i refer to as the Great Mystery. Out of which stories emerge. It contains all that isn't being currently experienced. All that isn't known in the now.
So how can you get rid of the self How can you get rid of what never existed ? But then you have to behave AS IF the illusion of self is an actual self in order to interact with those apparent 'others'. Just as you have to behave AS IF those others are separate beings, even though you know that you are actually interacting with images in your own brain.
the experience of no experience!Another seeming paradox.
Recognising the illusion of the Self is but one portal.
This IS IT !, is another.
Alex, what might these portals be to ?
Write what first arises, then wait for a couple of hours to see if any epiphany occurs before submitting.


love

vince

[Alexw]

achieve this realisation. Is a realisation achieved or discovered ?

and

Experience is reality. Just to be pedantic here, An experience is a memory. It is past, finished. Now just thoughts. (current) experiencing is what is real.

Yes, you are of course right. A realisation has to be experienced/discovered - it can not be achieved like a gold medal at a marathon. And yes, I rather meant "Experiencing is reality" as experience is something quite different, stored in memory and mostly attached to egoistic thought - not pure experience. I guess being not precise at times comes from not being a native English speaker...

But then you have to behave AS IF the illusion of self is an actual self in order to interact with those apparent 'others'.

Yes, you have to, otherwise you would be in a vegetative state and not interacting with other organisms. So you will need to keep some sort of "avatar" to have a representation in this subject/object world. I guess it won't be hard to keep the iAvatar as it was around for so long and has become a habit anyway. It might be more problematic to keep in mind that it is only an avatar and not the self... (but maybe once seen it sticks?)

Recognising the illusion of the Self is but one portal.
This IS IT !, is another.
Alex, what might these portals be to ?

This IS IT. With the focus on THIS! THIS is all there is - no past or future. THIS is the now - it is all we have.
Constantly experiencing THIS with awareness (but not with forced concentration) is a portal to yourself - your true self - to IT. NOW is YOU!

[Alexw]

I had some more time to contemplate the above.
I realised that I AM what is experienced right now. The now is experienced, reality is experienced, now is reality... I have to be reality... Everything that is reality? This would really mean that I am THAT... one with all...
Can this be experienced in another way than just through thought?