Just seen through the self!

[Henrik70]

Hi Bill,

Seeing through the self and also feeling the sense of self are not in-congruent.

OK, good point, I thought that!

Can you bring out here and write down as close to what you expect liberation to be?

I think I expect some ease after seeing there is no self, that there is only thought. That there is a release of the psychological self that was just a phantom. Or, even if things don’t change I thought there would be an inner ease meeting all the thoughts, feelings and events. And shouldn’t there be the realization that no-one dies or that we are all one essence. Some seem to know that it is US, as Source, that make this whole creation, out of Itself, to wake up to Itself. I don’t know that!
Yes, many describe their awakening as a big event, as something life changing, some laugh for hours… or at least there is a shift, so there is some expectation of that.

[Bill]

I think I expect some ease after seeing there is no self, that there is only thought. That there is a release of the psychological self that was just a phantom. Or, even if things don’t change I thought there would be an inner ease meeting all the thoughts, feelings and events. And shouldn’t there be the realization that no-one dies or that we are all one essence. Some seem to know that it is US, as Source, that make this whole creation, out of Itself, to wake up to Itself. I don’t know that!
Yes, many describe their awakening as a big event, as something life changing, some laugh for hours… or at least there is a shift, so there is some expectation of that.

Hello Henrik - I want to tell you there is no cookie cutter mold for how this works.
You've read all these things and listened to others about how this 'should be'.
Expectations of what waking up or liberation is....
Let me ask you, and this is something normally seen.. Can what is happening be anything other that what it is?
And is there anything really other than 'this'? Can there be?
Isn't anything more than what is happening right here and now just a thought or a description or a concept?

When you looked on your trip, did you find an entity running the show?
What did you find?

We have just completed a list of what this is NOT on our homepage.
I'll list them here. These can only get in the way and if seen, the possibilty
of just dropping them could happen.

Please comment on them and tell me what you might still be holding onto.

********************************************************************************

Liberation Unleashed is not ...
Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

[Henrik70]

quote="Bill"] Can what is happening be anything other that what it is?
And is there anything really other than 'this'? Can there be?
Isn't anything more than what is happening right here and now just a thought or a description or a concept?[/quote]

Thought has been trying to change or resist what is happening for years...often saying that things could've been different or should be different. It is quite obvious though, now that you asked, that it can't be other than how it is. Thought paints another picture of reality than what is in plain view.

When you looked on your trip, did you find an entity running the show?
What did you find?

I didn't...I found only thoughts and feelings, also a SENSE of self, but no entity.

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

I certainly thought there would be more ease and happiness and maybe easier with some relationships. I thought I would see we are all one essence and that what I truly am doesn't die. I thought there would be a relaxation in the body. I didnt expect the I to disappear but to be seen through (which has happened).
I dont expect to be special, to change thoughts, to be mystical, holy , moral but preferebly a little better!

I was starting the search to feel better and to become freer I must admit! Now I wonder are there no positive side effects? Why do we do it then? I supose I'm curious about what reality actually is, beyond all concepts.
Thank you for leading me through this!

[Bill]

Thought has been trying to change or resist what is happening for years...often saying that things could've been different or should be different. It is quite obvious though, now that you asked, that it can't be other than how it is. Thought paints another picture of reality than what is in plain view.

Do you feel or see that you are now trying to change things?

I certainly thought there would be more ease and happiness and maybe easier with some relationships. I thought I would see we are all one essence and that what I truly am doesn't die. I thought there would be a relaxation in the body. I didnt expect the I to disappear but to be seen through (which has happened).
I dont expect to be special, to change thoughts, to be mystical, holy , moral but preferebly a little better!

Better? In what way?
What has changed for you since seeing thru the illusion?

I was starting the search to feel better and to become freer I must admit! Now I wonder are there no positive side effects? Why do we do it then? I supose I'm curious about what reality actually is, beyond all concepts.

Why do we do it?
What is reality to you, beyond all concepts?
Your answer is as valid as anyone else's.

[Henrik70]

Do you feel or see that you are now trying to change things?

Not so much, but I can see how the mind is doing it all the time, I am (whoever that is...another thought, a wiser thought? not getting stuck in that loop that much anymore.

Better? In what way?
What has changed for you since seeing thru the illusion?

I guess I wanted to feel a little better, to be better at sorting out some relationships and better at my work, normal stuff. What has changed since I saw thru the illusion is that I don't totally Believe thought or the self sense, but I must admit I thought there would be more ease and more understanding what reality is, what Life is about after the seeing.

Why do we do it?
What is reality to you, beyond all concepts?

My reason for the search was to feel better initially, and then when I heard about enlightenment I wanted to know what it was. I can't say I know what reality beyond all concepts is. I haven't found anything that is timeless and unchanging!

[Bill]

Hello Henrik,

Your answers indicate to me you are very clear on this.
No self was found when looked for... just thoughts and more thoughts.
Nothing real along the lines of a self ever can be found if looked for.

Is there anything more that you feel is murky or needing looked at?
If you want to just write how things are for you in a rant, that would
be great too. Let 'er rip as we say....

If not I'd like to go ahead with the final questions we ask all to answer.
Your answers to these might also reveal anything needing looked into further.

Go ahead with them if you feel you are ready at this point.
Take your time and answer all fully.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Henrik70]

Is there anything more that you feel is murky or needing looked at?
If you want to just write how things are for you in a rant, that would
be great too. Let 'er rip as we say....

Hi Bill,
I agree I am quite clear about there being no self, even if the organism is still acting as if there is a self.
I will write down what still feels unresolved.
I still don’t know what I am beyond thought…maybe that isn’t possible but it sure sounds as if a lot of realized people are absolutely sure that they are Presence or Awareness, and with that comes ease. If we can’t know it, how come I don’t see that!?
I still don’t see that I am one with everyone and everything and that my essence is immortal…or beyond birth and death…why?
Yes, being special is not at all interesting anymore, thought is less and less taken seriously but some seeking goes on…I’m expecting some shift, more ease and a knowing what life is about.
Several realized people have suggested that once we find what we are, Awareness, Presence, non conceptual awareness, we can ‘come back’ to this as often as possible in order to stabilize the momentary realization that we are Awareness…indicating that we can sort of cultivate it. Not that we produce a new state but getting more aquainted with the reality we already are. I find myself doing this but noticing very little progress…there is something that doesn’t feel right here, but I can’t put my finger on it….can you see what it is?
So let’s resolve this if possible before the final questions!

[Bill]

Henrik,

Yes, it seems that although you keep stating to the contrary, you are looking for a 'special' state of enlightenment, ease, clarity, ..... something different than 'this'. A 'state' as we call it.
Can this happen? And last? Can it really happen?
You are letting other peoples idea and perceptions be ahead of your own first hand experience.
We all have done this all our lives... looking for validation outside ourselves.

Sorry to let you know that ONLY when you can let go of these expectations will these desires cease.
There really is no you to do this either.... but, if looked at, if SEEN for what they are, you might be able to drop them.
If you have the feeling of 'there is something more' that feeling is also what I would call 'it'.
Awareness, Presence, etc are all just words for exactly the same thing that is going on for you at this moment and has only ever gone on, but you're discounting it and looking for something more.

See that what you are looking for, searching for is here, right now.
Its always been here. We just haven't noticed it.
We're always looking for something MORE.
LOOK. truly LOOK.
This moment, right now, is the one you've wanted your whole life.
There's nothing, absolutely nothing that needs to be changed
either on your insides, or in your outer circumstances.

The brain says no, No, NO! It can't be this simple.
Its got to be different than this, more flashy,
greater insight, more bliss, oneness.... and on and on and on.
So we overlook THIS precious moment in hopes of a better one.
Of course off in the future. That one that never comes.
This is the delusion. That this moment is not the one.
That what is here right now... THIS.... is not IT!
See this delusion. It has to be seen.

When you see it, truly SEE it, you can relax and know that this moment is the one.
It's just ordinary everyday life as it is. We don't have to hope for something better.
The seeking can stop. We can put all the books away. No more teachers are needed either.
There's nothing to learn really and we can't lose this either because whatever occurs on the
inside or outside, it is always still THIS.
We just have to stop and LOOK again to realize.

[Bill]

Hello Henrik,

Are you still with this?

A question for you....

"Did Ramana, Nisargadatta or U G Krishnamurti know something that you don't know?
Is Jeff Foster, Mooji or Rupert Spira in possession of a special combination of concepts that will bring you the peace of mind you hope for?" quote from a friend...

[Henrik70]

Hi Bill, yes I'm still with this. I wanted to look into this.
What became apparent is that I don't know what THIS is, what to look for, what the 'it' is! I can see that expectations create a problem, make me think that there is more, and I begin to see that I don't need to expect anything here, that it desn't need to become like a Spira or Maharaj experience ...what we read about or hear!
So pretty much I can see expectations for what they are, and I see that self is thought, but ...what is am I?

Hope I dont bore you too much here Bill! I really appreciate this dialogue, and especially the last posts got me thinking!

[Bill]

Glad you're here Henrik,

These expectations are very hard to shake.
But if looked at.... if seen... they can just drop.
We've read all this stuff for years what 'this' must be like...
Mystical, magical, elusive... on and on
So rare.... 'we' would never get it.

All of that is just not the case.
This is a simple as taking a glance at what's in front of you.
Available to all with no exclusions..
No long apprenticeships are needed either, contrary to what 'they' say.

Can we ever know what 'it' is?
Has anyone ever known this for sure?
Is it even a potential in this realm?

The core question I want to know is this:

Is there a 'you', a 'self', an 'I' anywhere that you can find in the real world?
Has there ever been?
Can there ever be one?

[Henrik70]

Thanks Bill,

I had a few experiences where the ego dissolved and it was so liberating, also once I had an experience of timelessness and that my core being couldn't die. These experiences felt so true and yet they disappeared so I suppose they were just appearances. Took me a long time to accept that. But, still they make me think that that is how it should be when I have seen through the illusion of self...or at least a bit like that!
Another thing that felt true was that desires came and went but I wasnt too caught up in them...now I am quite entangled and keep thinking that now that I have seen that there is no 'me' to whom these belong they shouldn't have the same power over me.

So that's probably why these expectations stick! Even if I can't find a self!

[Henrik70]

And, I have two friends that have seen this and they both know that the appearances and the Essence are ONE, but I don't. I havent quite stopped reading non-duality, they have. You obviously feel that what you saw was enough and that there is nothing more to ponder.

[Henrik70]

Another thing. Desires...if I do something great like going abroad for a nice holiday, I want to repeat that experience very soon afterwards. I also want to make sure I have as many of these experiences as possible in order to feel fulfilled. If I miss a chance to do this my mind goes crazy...it's so important for it. I thought as I can see no-one in here how can these mind attacks be so strong still?

[Bill]

These 'states' are so hypnotic they lure us into thinking that awakening just has to be something different than what is being experienced right now. I can assure you this is not the case, but it is something you have to SEE for yourself.
As I have mentioned, the 'spiritual' world is filled with these accounts of beings who magically awaken and then never again suffer the pains of normal everyday life... anger... lust.... greed.... suffering.... selfishness... I could go on and on. But I won't. Normal everyday life, as it is, is certainly part of what this is. And all that goes with it too. It seems all these things I've listed are part of what's here on a recurring basis. Also along with seeing and feeling beauty, love, kindness, appreciation, etc.. In other words all of it - nothing excluded. We're fully alive and all the emotions are here and available and felt without filtering. And yes, sometimes very strong.


This seeking that you're describing.... what is it that you are seeking if you could put into a word or two?
Do you really think you'll get it?
Can you notice this seeking as it comes up?
Don't try and stop it, just notice it as it happens.

Another thing. Desires...if I do something great like going abroad for a nice holiday, I want to repeat that experience very soon afterwards. I also want to make sure I have as many of these experiences as possible in order to feel fulfilled. If I miss a chance to do this my mind goes crazy...it's so important for it. I thought as I can see no-one in here how can these mind attacks be so strong still?

To want to do pleasurable things and avoid unpleasantness sounds pretty human to me. :)
Again, as with the seeking... can you just notice when this is happening?
Don't try and change anything, just notice the desires as they come up.

I'll list again "What this is not" from our FAQ page, I think its good if you go over these a few times in the next
few days. Tell me also your thoughts about these...

Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.