Would really appreciate a guide!

[aoife]

Hi Xain, thanks for your response, plenty to think about! I need a bit more time again so I'll answer tomorrow!

[aoife]

Let's say that a memory/thought appears of something that happened to you in the past. What is the truth of that thought? In other words, did that event 'happen to you'?

Well it’s referencing something that happened to this body in the past. If we’re talking from direct experience then you can’t find the past so not sure where that leaves us! But ignoring that, the thoughts have no self, they’re not about some permanent self. They’re just thoughts referencing an experience that happened to someone.
When I think about the question ‘did I walk home today?’ well there’s the memory of walking home and definitely Aoife walked home but I don’t feel any ownership of it and I can’t say I feel any more connected to it then if I think of someone else walking home.

I’m finding it much harder to answer these questions now because the illusion of self has certainly taken a serious blow already so there’s not such an easily findable sense of self to examine.

Focus awareness on something now. What does that? Examine your experience. Can you find/locate the 'I' that controls this focus? Can you at least state that there is definitely nothing (i.e. no separate 'thing') that can be found that controls where awareness focuses?

It just happens, there’s no ‘I’ doing it. I’ve been doing mental noting almost all day for the last day or two and it’s been pretty revealing. I definitely feel more like awareness is just focusing where it’s focusing and there’s not much of a sense of ‘I’ about it. There’s more a sense of ‘amness’ than I in experience the last day or two. So no, definitely can’t find a separate thing focusing awareness.

If one cannot be found, we are not saying 'nothing is doing it' (nihilism), we are simply saying that there is no 'separate thing' to be found doing it, although perceiving certainly happens.

That clarifies a lot!

Could you say a bit more about this, not sure I’m entirely certain about what you’re saying:

Thought and mind can only encompass objects, concepts, and 'stuff' - Separate things. If no 'separate thing' can be found, then what is perceiving cannot be encompassed by the mind.

I really feel like I’m starting to gain some clarity on this! You’re amazing!

Aoife

[Xain]

Well it’s referencing something that happened to this body in the past.

If you take an example of a memory where someone was angry with you, are you saying that it is clear they were angry at a body rather than a person? That doesn't seem right . . . ?

But ignoring that, the thoughts have no self, they’re not about some permanent self. They’re just thoughts referencing an experience that happened to someone.

This is a little bit of a confusing statement. Answer from only what you really believed to be true.
Would you say that memories appearing relate to events that happened to you? Keep it simple. Be honest.

Well there’s the memory of walking home and definitely Aoife walked home . . .

This, then, would appear that YES - These memories happened to a 'me', to 'Aoife'.
As you rightly say, the past is just a thought, a memory, we can't 'go back' and examine it, but we can examine our experience right here and now.

Let us examine this present moment. Let's look at 'walking' as immediate present experience.

An exercise. Get up and walk somewhere - Into another room, or to a chair or bed etc
Now describe the 'you', the 'Aoife' that is doing that.
Describe the 'I', 'me' that chose to walk to that particular room or item.
Whilst doing the walking, examine your experience and try to locate the 'I', 'me' that is doing the walking, controlling the legs and choosing which foot to go in front of another.
What can be found?

but I don’t feel any ownership of it

The ownership is there - You stated that 'you' definitely did that.
This isn't some form of trick. I am simply looking at the beliefs you present.
We can now examine this belief.

I really feel like I’m starting to gain some clarity on this! You’re amazing!

Thank you. You did say it was going to be 'tricky' examining where you are, but I find it quite interesting.
A bit of a challenge :-)

Try that exercise and tell me what can be found.

Xain ♥

[aoife]

If you take an example of a memory where someone was angry with you, are you saying that it is clear they were angry at a body rather than a person? That doesn't seem right . . . ?

Yeah fair point, they would have been angry at Aoife. They were angry at the self they believe to exist.

Would you say that memories appearing relate to events that happened to you? Keep it simple. Be honest.

Well they relate to events that happened. I don’t know what to say about the you part because I can’t really find a me to examine.

An exercise. Get up and walk somewhere - Into another room, or to a chair or bed etc Now describe the 'you', the 'Aoife' that is doing that. Describe the 'I', 'me' that chose to walk to that particular room or item. Whilst doing the walking, examine your experience and try to locate the 'I', 'me' that is doing the walking, controlling the legs and choosing which foot to go in front of another. What can be found?

I spent a lot of time on this today and I really don’t have any answers. There was walking and there were thoughts and there was awareness but I can’t say anything else really. I couldn’t find anything that was ‘in charge’ of the walking.

The short answers today aren’t due to lack of effort or interest, I’ve really been thinking about things but I’m just coming up blank! I went for a walk for over an hour and still couldn't come up with any sort of description about what was happening.

Hope you're enjoying your weekend!
Aoife

[Xain]

Yeah fair point, they would have been angry at Aoife. They were angry at the self they believe to exist.

So in this memory, it is clear there are 'others' and these others are angry at something that doesn't exist. Yes?
Explain how this is known.

Would you say that memories appearing relate to events that happened to you? Keep it simple. Be honest.
Well they relate to events that happened. I don’t know what to say about the you part because I can’t really find a me to examine.

'Don't know what to say' is a bit of a cop-out. I don't mean that in a harsh manner, but if we are to make progress you will have to open up and be honest about what is believed to be true so we can examine it.

You can't find a 'me' to examine right now, but I am not referring to 'right now', I am referring to the memories.
There is a memory about a past event. Do you believe that the event 'happened to you' or not?

I couldn’t find anything that was ‘in charge’ of the walking.

Ok, that's fair. Just reply with what you believe is correct.
So is 'I walk' anything more than a thought?
If you cannot find what does the walking, what is 'I' when you say 'I walk'?
A real 'thing' or a thought?

I’ve really been thinking about things but I’m just coming up blank! I went for a walk for over an hour and still couldn't come up with any sort of description about what was happening.

Coming up with a blank, or unable to find anything when asked?
Is you are unable to find what is asked for in the search, just say. That itself, is an acceptable answer.

Xain ♥

[aoife]

Hey, haven't had enough time to answer properly so I'll post tomorrow.

Aoife.

[aoife]

So in this memory, it is clear there are 'others' and these others are angry at something that doesn't exist. Yes? Explain how this is known.

Well the ‘others’ are also part of the memory so it’s just a thought.

There is a memory about a past event. Do you believe that the event 'happened to you' or not?

Yes it feels like that. I suppose because I have access to the memory of it from my point of view - the point of view of this body. So anything to do with experiencing from this body is me and mine.

So is 'I walk' anything more than a thought? If you cannot find what does the walking, what is 'I' when you say 'I walk'? A real 'thing' or a thought?

It seems like saying ‘I walk’ is the same as saying this body is walking. So the I is just a thought.

Coming up with a blank, or unable to find anything when asked? Is you are unable to find what is asked for in the search, just say. That itself, is an acceptable answer.

Unable to find anything.
Certainly not having the issue of no feeling of self today though.

Aoife.

[Xain]

It seems like saying ‘I walk’ is the same as saying this body is walking. So the I is just a thought.

Your answer is not clear.
There are two possibles here, and we need to work out which is correct from your experience.
Is it clear that 'the body' is responsible for doing the walking.
If so, how is this known?

Certainly not having the issue of no feeling of self today though.

What is having this experience?

Xain ♥

[aoife]

Is it clear that 'the body' is responsible for doing the walking.
If so, how is this known?

No, the body walks but I guess I can’t say it’s responsible for doing the walking. The intention arises to walk but that intention arises by itself.

Certainly not having the issue of no feeling of self today though.

What is having this experience?

Well there are thoughts of protest coming up when it’s suggested there’s not a self and then there’s physical sensations of unpleasant tension and contraction and also a feeling of defensiveness. There’s the perceiving of all these things. But still can’t find the perceiver. So the initial thought is that I am having this experience but I can’t find this I.

[Xain]

No, the body walks but I guess I can’t say it’s responsible for doing the walking

This doesn't make sense.
If you say 'the body walks' then you are saying that it is the body that is responsible for doing that action.
How can 'the body walk' but not be responsible for it?

I intend to stay on this tangent for a while, as we seem to have found a stumbling block which we can explore - Specifically this statement you made:

Well there’s the memory of walking home and definitely Aoife walked home . . .

Ok - So it must be clear that there is an 'Aoife' here right now that is capable of walking. I am asking you to identify what this 'I', 'me', 'Aoife' is, the one that 'walks'.

Let me give you a suggestion - See if this makes sense.

Could it be that actions happen, and only when thoughts about them appear does the mind insert an 'I' to claim responsibility.
How many times have you walked somewhere (or better still driven somewhere if you can drive) but you cannot recall the journey afterwards - Like it was completely automatic?
When quizzed, you would still say 'I walked', 'I drove' even though the actual journey appeared to be automatic.

When thought isn't there, there is no 'I' - Only when the mind/thoughts appear does the 'I' appear.

How many times has the body breathed today? Did you do it or was it automatic?
I suggest it was completely automatic. It has never been examined or quizzed as the mind/thought was not occupied on it.
Now take two deep breaths. At this point, you would say 'I did that' because mind/thought is active.
But is this still automatic? Can you find the 'I' that is responsible for breathing?
Or is there no 'I' to be found, other than in thought?

Xain ♥

[aoife]

If you say 'the body walks' then you are saying that it is the body that is responsible for doing that action. How can 'the body walk' but not be responsible for it?

Well it wouldn’t be responsible for it if there was something else directing it to walk.

Ok - So it must be clear that there is an 'Aoife' here right now that is capable of walking. I am asking you to identify what this 'I', 'me', 'Aoife' is, the one that 'walks'.

Well when ‘I’ do some action then the vast majority of the time it is an automatic response. Recently I’ve even often started a conversation on autopilot and not noticed what I was saying for a while. So it wasn’t me talking or deciding to talk or choosing the subject matter. I suppose I want to argue that all those things happened as a result of my conditioning so it was still ‘me’ doing it. So yeah most of the time it’s all just happening. But when I ‘consciously’ decide to talk to someone and choose a subject matter that seems like it’s me. But I’ve only chosen that subject matter and decided to talk to them because of a long line of cause and effect. So I suppose I can’t claim to be responsible for that any more than I can claim to be responsible for the autopilot response. To say there’s no choice or control at all in what happens or the thoughts appearing seems a bit insane though.

But saying that it was me because it was as a result of my past experiences and conditioning implies an I. Which I guess brings us back to the original question of what is this ‘I’. Which I suppose is the sense of being mixed up with the thoughts and actions which appear to be actively chosen a small part of the time.

But is this still automatic? Can you find the 'I' that is responsible for breathing? Or is there no 'I' to be found, other than in thought?

No, the I is only added on when there’s thinking about whats happening. But I’m having those thoughts due to cause and effect so it’s not really me choosing that.

[Xain]

Well it wouldn’t be responsible for it if there was something else directing it to walk.

Absolutely, so when you did the exercise, what did you find directing it?

You will not be able to continue or dialogue without actually looking at your experience to try to find the solution.
So far, you are continuously going to thought and mind for the answers.

But saying that it was me because it was as a result of my past experiences and conditioning implies an I.

Your sentence here states 'my past experiences and conditioning' so right here and now there is an 'I' / 'me'' that has these things. What is that one? Describe that one as you find it, and tell me how it is known that 'thing' you have found has 'experiences and conditioning'.

To say there’s no choice or control at all in what happens or the thoughts appearing seems a bit insane though.

If that is your view, what is your interest here?

Xain ♥

[aoife]

Absolutely, so when you did the exercise, what did you find directing it?

Nothing.

But saying that it was me because it was as a result of my past experiences and conditioning implies an I.
Your sentence here states 'my past experiences and conditioning' so right here and now there is an 'I' / 'me'' that has these things. What is that one? Describe that one as you find it, and tell me how it is known that 'thing' you have found has 'experiences and conditioning'.

I understand that there's no such thing as ownership outside of thought so I've been focusing on looking at that as directly as possible today.

To say there’s no choice or control at all in what happens or the thoughts appearing seems a bit insane though.

If that is your view, what is your interest here?

Because if that's the way reality is I want to see it directly. It's just a pretty surprising thing to realise.

I'm going to continue to examine the whole ownership thing for the time being. I know you've said I keep going to thought and mind for answers but I don't know how we are supposed to communicate without using thought to some extent. I feel like it's just one word answers if thoughts can't be used at all, is that how it should be?

Thanks,
Aoife.

[Xain]

Well it wouldn’t be responsible for it if there was something else directing it to walk.
Absolutely, so when you did the exercise, what did you find directing it?
Nothing.

Ok. So is it clear that there is no controller of 'walking'? - None can be found.
To say 'I walk' is just a thought. Walking happens all by itself.
Yes, initially this can seem crazy as it goes against what we believe is correct.
However, our investigation is to see that there is no separate 'I', 'me' here.
If there WAS a separate locatable 'I' here, then that 'I' could be responsible for 'walking'.

I have held on to 'walking' because of your previous statement that it was certain that 'you walked' in a thought that appeared (a memory). We had initial difficulty trying to track down the true belief of 'I', and you said you had problems trying to locate an 'I', 'me'.
What is your view of 'I walked' now? Have 'you' ever walked . . . other than a thought about it?

I understand that there's no such thing as ownership outside of thought so I've been focusing on looking at that as directly as possible today.

Good. Perhaps I could jump forward and ask - Is 'past experiences and conditioning' anything more than a thought?
Looking at 'ownership of experiences' - Is 'I have past experiences' anything more than a thought about a thought?
What I mean here is that if 'past experiences' are just thoughts appearing, to say 'I have past experiences' is a thought about a thought, as an 'I' having the thoughts cannot be found.
Can you find anything other than thoughts appearing? This is important.

Because if that's the way reality is I want to see it directly. It's just a pretty surprising thing to realise.

Surprising perhaps. Sure. Ok. I am not trying to convince you of anything. You have to make this realisation yourself, and all I can ask is that you look to your own immediate experience to try to work out what is truly going on.

I know you've said I keep going to thought and mind for answers but I don't know how we are supposed to communicate without using thought to some extent. I feel like it's just one word answers if thoughts can't be used at all, is that how it should be?

You are right. Communication and language is 'thought' and seperation.
Even when I ask you to try something, it is 'thought' - I do not actually mean to imply that there is a separate 'I' there. You could quite easily reply 'who are you asking if there is no 'I' here' if you wanted to be vindictive :-)
No change of language is needed. I only mention 'mind and thought' to try to focus you on examining your experience. It is a very common area where people get stuck on as we are so used to believing thoughts automatically, rather than focussing on experience to see if it matches our beliefs.

I'm going to continue to examine the whole ownership thing for the time being.

Cool. Its a good idea. Simply examine your experience and try to find the 'I' in all things.

Xain ♥

[aoife]

What is your view of 'I walked' now? Have 'you' ever walked . . . other than a thought about it?

No, there were only ever thoughts about it.

Is 'past experiences and conditioning' anything more than a thought? Looking at 'ownership of experiences' - Is 'I have past experiences' anything more than a thought about a thought? .

No, it’s all just thought.

Can you find anything other than thoughts appearing? This is important.

Just to clarify was this meant regarding the past experiences and conditioning? Can’t find anything more to them than thought.

I realised today that I’ve not quite been trying to see that there’s no I, I’ve been trying to see that ‘I’ am awareness. Which isn’t right is it? There’s awareness and perceiving and thoughts but that’s all that can be found.
I also realised, while focusing on direct experience, that the whole self thing collapses if you stick to the present moment and don't THINK about past and future.

Thanks again,
Aoife.