Guidance please.....

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

There are many instances when walking happens. Here one such instance is described:
Hunger is felt and a thought arises about eating. The body obliges by walking to the kitchen to fix food and eat. There is no 'I' involved. If asked who walked, previously the answer would be I walked with 'I' taking credit for it. Not anymore. A similar process as above unfolds in many of the cases like, brushing teeth, etc

Good stuff Chandra. You can see that no 'I' is needed, or indeed exists, whatever action happens.

There is no 'I' in any of these. A thought arises and to accomplish the task that the thought brings to awareness, if habitual steps need to be taken, they are taken. If it involves new actions, that are not habitual, thought guides them. Again, no 'I' is involved in this, since thought by itself does not come out of 'I'.
Habitual actions seem to be automatic. Non habitual ones, where trial and error is involved, seems to have a feedback loop with thought, with an action, triggering a thought and the thought triggering an action and so on.

You are, of course, right that, because there is no self involved or present when thoughts arise, no ''I' could be involved in the event that a thought was guiding a new, non-habitual actions.

However, when 'you' look in direct experience, can you even find any (experiential) evidence that a thought ever guides actions, or that an action triggers a thought, or that a thought triggers an action? Or is it possibly the case that each of these are separate arisings in awareness, followed in each case by another arising, in the form of another thought that says that the two previous arisings are in some way connected, and claiming that the first arising is somehow able to guide, influence or control the second? If the former is the case, please give details of what you saw in direct experience that showed that there is this cause and effect link.

Let's now move on a little from doing/controlling to deciding/choosing (although the border between these is, to say the least, a little hazy). Anyway, try this exercise:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Pete x

[mumukshu]

Hello Pete,
This is a really an interesting point of investigation:

when 'you' look in direct experience, can you even find any (experiential) evidence that a thought ever guides actions, or that an action triggers a thought, or that a thought triggers an action? Or is it possibly the case that each of these are separate arisings in awareness, followed in each case by another arising, in the form of another thought that says that the two previous arisings are in some way connected, and claiming that the first arising is somehow able to guide, influence or control the second? If the former is the case, please give details of what you saw in direct experience that showed that there is this cause and effect link.

Need to wait for situations to observe what really unfolds. I shall update you on this as and when I have one.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Every time the experiment is tried, there was no thought preceeding the action! The entity that makes the choice is out of grasp. The idea certainly comes after the event like in the case of sensing.

BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill

Thanks for bring this up. Had watched this long time back and had not connected with our process. Also, at that time, it was spooky to think that there is no freewill. Now, it seems to be true and not frightening anymore, but rather, unburdening!

With gratitude, as always,
Chandra

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

This is a really an interesting point of investigation:

Yes it is, which is why, although you have clearly seen that there is no 'you', no self, involved in any way in seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, doing, controlling, choosing or deciding, I asked you do this exercise. Although it's not crucial, I just think it's a very useful exercise in terms of this whole looking process for you to look in your direct experience to see if you can find anything like the guiding and triggering that you mention.

Every time the experiment is tried, there was no thought preceeding the action! The entity that makes the choice is out of grasp. The idea certainly comes after the event like in the case of sensing.

Yeah, it's amazing to discover that isn't it. I remember how it felt that way when I first saw it for real. As you say, the thought is seen to follow on, shortly afterwards. This of course links up with my question about guiding and triggering referred to above, from my last post.

Anyway, there is another area for you to look, one that some people have a particularly strong identification with, the body.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Pete x

[mumukshu]

Hello Pete,

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

we established that there is only the experience of the sensations and thoughts, there is neither the experienced nor an experiencer.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

In essence, it seems to be just that.

Who is (the witness) observing these arisings in awareness?

Thanks again,
Chandra

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

we established that there is only the experience of the sensations and thoughts, there is neither the experienced nor an experiencer.

Sorry Chandra, I'm not quite sure what you mean by we established. I'm only interested in what you can see (and not see) in direct experience.

I need to be free of doubt at every stage that you have seen, so please say whether you have been able to find, in direct experience, a body that experiences. Or is it merely a label attached by thought?

Who is (the witness) observing these arisings in awareness?

That's a good question and one that quite often arises when it's been seen that there's no self but there is still the feeling and/or thought that there's something doing the witnessing. Even though you have clearly seen that there's no seer, no hearer, no doer, no controller, no chooser, no thinker, no experiencer (see your quote above, in this post).

As always, looking only at your direct experience, can you see a witness, or is there just witnessing?

Have you yet been able to find any evidence of guiding or triggering in direct experience?

I'm enjoying this and I'm pleased with the way it's going. Hope you are too.

Pete x

[mumukshu]

Hello Pete,

please say whether you have been able to find, in direct experience, a body that experiences. Or is it merely a label attached by thought?

No, there is no body that experiences in direct experience. It is indeed a label attached by thought.

As always, looking only at your direct experience, can you see a witness, or is there just witnessing?

There is just witnessing, however, it is not part of direct experience as defined in the article on direct experiencing:

1) thought

2) sensations
seeing
hearing
smelling
tasting
feeling [tactile + kinesthetic)

3) an unmistakable sense of Aliveness
(presence, being)

Have you yet been able to find any evidence of guiding or triggering in direct experience?

No, I have not. still struggling to integrate the conclusions from the experiment you had from last time - do actions really arise without thought? need more time for this question to really settle.

I'm enjoying this and I'm pleased with the way it's going. Hope you are too.

Indeed, this has been an interesting journey.

Many thanks,
Chandra

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

No, there is no body that experiences in direct experience. It is indeed a label attached by thought

Cool.

As always, looking only at your direct experience, can you see a witness, or is there just witnessing?

There is just witnessing, however, it is not part of direct experience as defined in the article on direct experiencing:

You're right and, no, it's not listed but that's because witnessing is just another way if saying awareing i.e. being aware, and the various categories listed by Neal in his article are just the various modalities of being aware. Does that make sense to you?

So Chandra, that's all the various areas of experience looked at, and you haven't been able to find a self in any of them. Let's just have a look from a slightly different perspective.

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Pete x

[mumukshu]

You're right and, no, it's not listed but that's because witnessing is just another way if saying awareing i.e. being aware, and the various categories listed by Neal in his article are just the various modalities of being aware. Does that make sense to you?

Yes it does, and thanks for the clarification.

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Life remains....

What experiences?
What thinks?
What does?
What is aware?

Not sure if these questions themselves can be sensibly answered. Experiences are experienced, thoughts are thought, actions are done and awareness is.

Thoughts and actions are not in the feedback loop that they were thought to be in. Your experiment establishes that they are not.

Thanks,
Chandra

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Life remains....

It does, as always.

What experiences? What thinks? What does? What is aware?

Not sure if these questions themselves can be sensibly answered. Experiences are experienced, thoughts are thought, actions are done and awareness is.

I agree that it's difficult to respond sensibly with words to such questions, but what you've said is fine.

Thoughts and actions are not in the feedback loop that they were thought to be in. Your experiment establishes that they are not.

I'm glad that you've been able to see that from direct experience.

So, all good Chandra. As you might know, at the end of this process of looking everywhere in direct experience, the guide asks a set of final questions and the answers are looked at by other guides just to see whether they have any queries to clarify your seeing no-self for themselves, which is something they often do. After that, you're invited to join a selection of 'aftercare' and other groups, mainly on Facebook, where advice can be sought and friendly discussions happen. It can be really helpful.

However, before I ask you the final questions, I'd just like to ask you some 'sweep-up' questions, to make sure everything's been covered, and that we're both sure and satisfied that you've seen (although there's little doubt of that in my mind). Anyway, my apologies if the following questions seem a bit repetitious. It's just to make sure.

In direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It's a bit of a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, as I said, there is something you want to examine at some greater depth.

Pete x

[mumukshu]

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No. There is simply the experience.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No. Your raise your arm experiment clearly establishes this.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No, There are thoughts and that is it.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes it is

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

No, there is no self 'in here' and there is no separation from the world. The separation is created by thought.
There are no others 'out there' either, just the way there is no self 'in here'.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No, we make up the sense of 'self' by automatic habit of thought. When investigated dispassionately, the story is clearly seen.

Pete, thanks for your time and patience with all this stuff.

Thanks a lot,
Chandra

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

Thanks for your answers to the 'sweep-up' questions. There's nothing to sweep up. They're a pleasure to read.

So, here are the final questions. (When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience.) As I've already said, once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[mumukshu]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is none. There never was one. It was a creation of thought and the deconstruction process clearly makes one see it to be one.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is the illusion that somehow each one of us is separate entity with a free will and control over ourselves. It starts when we create a mental image of our body and form an association with it as 'I/me'. This is sustained when every time there is an arising in awareness, thoughts come and complete the story of how it was 'I/me' who was responsible for that arising, taking credit for it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels unburdening to see this. It almost felt like 'I' was responsible for running show in everyway until now, stressing oneself with needless thoughts and judgements. It feels a lot more tranquil to be one with the flow and not be in resistance. Also, there is inquiry about judgements/opinions about others/things - are they even required to function? Much of them seem to be done in order to protect the fictitious 'I'. Also, the strong sense of right/wrong, good/bad etc. are all currently under the scanner. Much of this seems like a supporting structure raised to sustain the 'I. Not sure where this will lead.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

That moment is frozen in the the following conversation:

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

There is just seeing. However, if you ask who is seeing, the thought of I attaches to the seeing. Also, interestingly now, as awareness of this comes, if you ask me again who is seeing, the reply would be there is seeing. The moment you ask, the thought domain kicks in. Thoughts start coming about seeing. Until then there seemed to be no noticeable thought. So, letting go of the thoughts and staying centered in the experience, there is no I. slowly, the identification with the physical body is not occurring.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

No. There is no controlling events in life. There is only experiencing it. There is no Me to make anything happen. It was this seemingly deciding, intending, choosing and controlling that almost a full time occupation and now all of that time and effort is free, giving a tremendous sense of peace and calm.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks for doing this, having a forum which is free for all and free from any monetary compensation as well. Would like to pay forward the help that was rendered by helping others. If there are other ways to volunteer for your cause, kindly make it known.

Thanks,
Chandra

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

Wow that was quick! Nice answers.

No problem, but in regard to Q5 - 5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? - the guides like to see a few examples from direct experience since you saw through the illusion of self, and as recent as you can manage to the present. Once I've got them, I'll pass all your replies on the guides for any comments.

It's been my pleasure to help you and I'll get back to you about your kind offer to help others once the other guides are through.

Also, PM me your Facebook details if you want to be part of the FB 'aftercare' and other groups.

Pete x

[mumukshu]

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

No , I do not decide, intend, choose or control events in life. As much as I want to take credit for doing this LU process well, I certainly cannot take credit for it. Everytime you would mention something positive, atleast towards the latter part of our daily sessions, the urge to take credit for doing well was clearly noticed and let go. These days it really makes no difference, if complemented or not.

There is an absolute letting go of clinging to the idea of I/me. There is a clear sense that there is nothing that is MINE. At work, where research is done full time, it is clear that ideas that come are not MINE, these are thoughts that come into awareness, not out of MY will or intent. So, there is no sense of ownership of these ideas anymore.

From simple tasks like having food to exercising regularly, there is just the flow of life and no I/Me in any of this. The effects of this realization that life is and I no more am, percolate every aspect of living.

Thanks,
Chandra

[moondog]

Hi Chandra,

Thanks for your lovely full reply. I'll now ask the guides to have a look and will let you know whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary.

Pete x