Guidance needed please

[jbixman]

Give me a list of 5 things you control. For this it is important that you state from where you are NOT from where you intellectually think you should be or are. OK. For instance free will, fate, the next movement. OK.

I control nothing because there is no I to do the controlling.

But seeing happened! Try smiling every time you catch it!

:)

They have the ability to label that’s for sure – but own – look for a thought that owns.

The I thought claims false ownership.

I believe I have already answered the previous question below.

Sarah7 wrote:
Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?


Seeing is happening but I am claiming the experience to be my own. There is no dividing line between the object and the seeing of it.

Thank You Sarah
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry

I control nothing because there is no I to do the controlling.

Is this experienced? This is seen? or is it concept and thought?

Are they? Or is it a thought that linked two other thoughts? Also look at habitual thinking. When thoughts follow one another and appear to build we call that story. What makes the story a story? Another thought? If thoughts had the power to own – how would that work? They have the ability to label that’s for sure – but own – look for a thought that owns.

The I thought claims false ownership.

How can a thought own? What can it own? Look again – is it really another thought that thought links? E.g. 2 is a thought, plus is another thought, 4 is another thought. What links them to make them make sense apparently? When really there is just another thought. Or is this what you mean by false?

I believe I have already answered the previous question below.

My apologies Jerry

Let's move on to the experience of hearing.
Describe the experience of hearing step-by-step in as much detail as you can. Without resorting to learnt theories about the mechanics of hearing- but the actual, concrete, lived experience of it. In hearing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "hearing" is happening? What is doing the hearing? Is anything or anyone doing the hearing? What is being heard?
Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know? Can you catch the labelling – ‘I’ hear that?
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Hi Sarah, I don't understand I replied last night but it did not post here. I'll try again tonight

:(
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Jerry it does that!!!!!
Try saving what you write somewhere else - copying and pasting it across. Log out of LU. Log in again and see if its still there! If not you have a copy you can PM me and Ill try!
If this still keeps hapening I can try and get in touch with the Admin for you? Or you can email. OK
Sarah xx

[jbixman]

jbixman wrote:
I control nothing because there is no I to do the controlling.

Is this experienced? This is seen? or is it concept and thought?

It is my experience that things happen and then afterword the "I" takes credit for making them happen by labeling them.

jbixman wrote:
The I thought claims false ownership.

How can a thought own? What can it own? Look again – is it really another thought that thought links? E.g. 2 is a thought, plus is another thought, 4 is another thought. What links them to make them make sense apparently? When really there is just another thought. Or is this what you mean by false?

Sarah could you please restate this, not sure what you are asking.
Thanks
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry
Im going to backtrack here a bit.

Sarah could you please restate this, not sure what you are asking.

Im just digging around to find out where you are. Its quite difficult over emails with language differences and usage etc to sometimes understand what someone else means – hence digging! So thank you for asking. Im trying to find out if thoughts are owned and if so by what. You stated at the start of our conversation:

The personal pronouns are applied most of the time both as a commentary and a possesiveness.

Labeling occurs after the event, but so quickly it allows the I to take ownership.

Seeing is happening but I am claiming the experience to be my own.

What claims ownership?

Intellectually I know that "I" don't exist. I am a collection of thoughts sensations and personal pronouns that can't be found in the real world.

Do you exist out of thought?

My difficulty is that I get caught up in being the "I" in Jerry and in turn forget my true being. The Isness referred to is here every time I take the time to look but to my dismay, does not receive my constant gaze.

In this instance do you mean thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations or something else?

Don’t forget to relate to me the experience of hearing!!!!!
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Sarah first thank you for your patience.
Where I'm at. First let me acknowledge that I understand I must leave my prior knowledge behind in this exercise. My difficulty is that I have been at this for over 30 years and after a while it is hard to discern what is prior knowledge and what is experience. The semantics are incredibly difficult when discussing these matters because what we are trying to describe is totally beyond words. Many times I spend so much time trying to get past the semantics that I seem to get derailed in what I am attempting to relate. I know without doubt who "i" am, the search is for whom "i" am not, while knowing all the time there is nothing to search for because it is closer than my breath and ever present. "i" stand at a precipice, "i" just need to turn around and fall back trusting in the unknown.

Now lets proceed with the task at hand.

jbixman wrote:
My difficulty is that I get caught up in being the "I" in Jerry and in turn forget my true being. The Isness referred to is here every time I take the time to look but to my dismay, does not receive my constant gaze.

In this instance do you mean thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations or something else?

Yes, the thoughts feelings and emotions of Jerry, as opposed to gazing inward at the isness.

Don’t forget to relate to me the experience of hearing!!!!!

Hearing is happening at all times. Except for a loud or startling sound much hearing goes un-noticed. The only time "i' hear anything is when attention is directed towards it. The sense of seeing is far more mesmerizing and pervasive than hearing.

Trusting in your guidence
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry

Where I'm at. First let me acknowledge that I understand I must leave my prior knowledge behind in this exercise. My difficulty is that I have been at this for over 30 years and after a while it is hard to discern what is prior knowledge and what is experience. The semantics are incredibly difficult when discussing these matters because what we are trying to describe is totally beyond words. Many times I spend so much time trying to get past the semantics that I seem to get derailed in what I am attempting to relate. I know without doubt who "i" am

Is this the ever present I Am-ness?

the search is for whom "i" am not, while knowing all the time there is nothing to search for because it is closer than my breath and ever present. "i" stand at a precipice, "i" just need to turn around and fall back trusting in the unknown.

You are right – words cannot explain. Maybe stop worrying so much about what you write – there are no right or wrong answers here! However this is about looking NOT intellectualizing. When there is much reading history – there is a tendency to think you know it all (not trying to be rude). But ask yourself this – if you know it all – why are you here – what do you want that you don’t have already? (you may wish to actually write exactly what you do want if you can identify it please). If all this knowledge has not brought it – then it must be something else? You already have and are what you are looking for – but this knowledge is what is clouding it because you are looking in the wrong place – you are looking at thoughts, with thoughts. The answers arent there – if they were you would have found it by now wouldn’t you? Thinking answers isn’t what is needed here – just looking. OK. We can work our way around understanding each other Im sure.

So – look with fresh eyes. Look as if you have never done any of this before, like a little child.
Do you exist out of thought? Look. Go somewhere quiet and just look.
Sarah7 wrote:jbixman wrote:

My difficulty is that I get caught up in being the "I" in Jerry and in turn forget my true being. The Isness referred to is here every time I take the time to look but to my dismay, does not receive my constant gaze.

Yes, the thoughts feelings and emotions of Jerry, as opposed to gazing inward at the isness.

What makes a particular thought a ‘Jerry’ thought? What is the difference between a ‘Jerry’ thought and any other thought? Look.
Is anything that arises in awareness permanent? Go sit by a window somewhere quiet and just look.

Hearing is happening at all times. Except for a loud or startling sound much hearing goes un-noticed. The only time "i' hear anything is when attention is directed towards it. The sense of seeing is far more mesmerizing and pervasive than hearing.

There are a lot of questions in that block – especially relating to the line between hearing, the hearer and the heard. Can you directly experience that line of division in hearing?

Let's move on to the experience of hearing.
Describe the experience of hearing step-by-step in as much detail as you can. Without resorting to learnt theories about the mechanics of hearing- but the actual, concrete, lived experience of it. In hearing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "hearing" is happening? What is doing the hearing? Is anything or anyone doing the hearing? What is being heard?
Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know? Can you catch the labelling – ‘I’ hear that?
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

HISarah, a lot to digest, I need a little more time.
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Its fine Jerry.
What ever you decide.
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

But ask yourself this – if you know it all – why are you here – what do you want that you don’t have already? (you may wish to actually write exactly what you do want if you can identify it please)

.

'I' want a shift in my perspective, 'I' no longer want the illusion of being 'i'.

So – look with fresh eyes. Look as if you have never done any of this before, like a little child.
Do you exist out of thought? Look. Go somewhere quiet and just look.

Yes, 'i' exist out of thought, without thought the 'i' does not exist.

What makes a particular thought a ‘Jerry’ thought? What is the difference between a ‘Jerry’ thought and any other thought? Look.

All thoughts are Jerry thoughts, 'i' am not privy to anyone else's thoughts.

Is anything that arises in awareness permanent? Go sit by a window somewhere quiet and just look.

If 'i' looked at a rock and came back the next day and looked at the same rock it would seem to be permanent however if I came back 10 years later and had the previous viewing in a photo i'm sure it would have changed. If i didn't have the photo and had to rely on memory alone i don't know if i could tell if it changed.

There are a lot of questions in that block – especially relating to the line between hearing, the hearer and the heard. Can you directly experience that line of division in hearing?

Without the i thought there is no division between hearing, the hearer and the heard. There is only hearing happening.

Describe the experience of hearing step-by-step in as much detail as you can. Without resorting to learnt theories about the mechanics of hearing- but the actual, concrete, lived experience of it. In hearing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "hearing" is happening?

Hearing is happening at all times. Except for a loud or startling sound much hearing goes un-noticed. The only time "i' hear anything is when attention is directed towards it. The sense of seeing is far more mesmerizing and pervasive than hearing.

What is doing the hearing?

Hearing is being done my the bodies auditory sense. And only in the present moment, i cannot hear into the past or future except as memory which is not sound but a thought.

Is anything or anyone doing the hearing? What is being heard?

The body in its present location is hearing what sound is present in that moment.

So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?

No most of the time hearing just happens, it is only when the i directs attention to sound that the label 'i hear' is detected. Sometimes when an unusual or unexpected sound is heard the i sticks in it's usual possession.

What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know? Can you catch the labelling – ‘I’ hear that?

When relating other people "I heard that" but not very often that "i hear that"

Please don't give up on me.
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry
Im happy to be here as long as you wish to be here.

'I' want a shift in my perspective, 'I' no longer want the illusion of being 'i'.

without thought the 'i' does not exist.

Would that be a thought that doesn’t want to think about itself? Look.

All thoughts are Jerry thoughts, 'i' am not privy to anyone else's thoughts.

Sorry didn’t explain this enough. I meant your other thoughts not someone elses. What is the difference between your ‘Jerry/I’ thoughts and any other thought you may have? Are 'Jerry/I' thoughts yours and other thoughts just passing through? Look.

If 'i' looked at a rock and came back the next day and looked at the same rock it would seem to be permanent however if I came back 10 years later and had the previous viewing in a photo i'm sure it would have changed. If i didn't have the photo and had to rely on memory alone i don't know if i could tell if it changed.

What ever you look at is it moving, swaying, wriggling, growing, breathing, changing etc…Instead of separating out all the individual elements in that view with thoughts – just see the whole thing move in some way shape or form.

Without the i thought there is no division between hearing, the hearer and the heard. There is only hearing happening.

Yes! Test this out as much as possible – keep looking for division outside of thought or notice how thought divides. Try with different sounds and use the looking exercise above.

The body in its present location is hearing what sound is present in that moment.

We will come onto body later if that’s OK.

No most of the time hearing just happens, it is only when the i directs attention to sound that the label 'i hear' is detected. Sometimes when an unusual or unexpected sound is heard the i sticks in it's usual possession.

Before, during or after? Look.
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

jbixman wrote:
'I' want a shift in my perspective, 'I' no longer want the illusion of being 'i'.

jbixman wrote:
without thought the 'i' does not exist.

Would that be a thought that doesn’t want to think about itself? Look.

For some reason this made me chuckle, and i'm still smiling about it. Outside of the fact that thoughts can't think, your statement makes great sense.

What is the difference between your ‘Jerry/I’ thoughts and any other thought you may have? Are 'Jerry/I' thoughts yours and other thoughts just passing through? Look.

When I stop to look as you suggested above very few if any thoughts are there however 5 minutes later i realize that for the last 5 minutes i was caught up in a 5 minute thought stream while waiting for a thought to occur. FRUSTRATING. The i/jerry thought is always labeled after the fact. There are no thoughts in the present moment, thoughts are always reflected on or labeled after they occur.

What ever you look at is it moving, swaying, wriggling, growing, breathing, changing etc…Instead of separating out all the individual elements in that view with thoughts – just see the whole thing move in some way shape or form.

i think what you are asking me to do is be aware of what is being seen without labeling.

We will come onto body later if that’s OK.

OK

jbixman wrote:
No most of the time hearing just happens, it is only when the i directs attention to sound that the label 'i hear' is detected. Sometimes when an unusual or unexpected sound is heard the i sticks in it's usual possession.

Before, during or after? Look.

Before as in "i'm going to listen for...", During as in "what is that i hear" After as in "what was that i heard?"

Thanks Much
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry

For some reason this made me chuckle, and i'm still smiling about it. Outside of the fact that thoughts can't think, your statement makes great sense.

Look for it in experience. Every time you notice a ‘want’ look for a ‘who’ or an ‘I’ that wants. Is there one in there or was it always just a thought passing?

When I stop to look as you suggested above very few if any thoughts are there however 5 minutes later i realize that for the last 5 minutes i was caught up in a 5 minute thought stream while waiting for a thought to occur. FRUSTRATING. The i/jerry thought is always labeled after the fact. There are no thoughts in the present moment, thoughts are always reflected on or labeled after they occur.

OK Lets have a right good look at thoughts!

Sit quietly and watch the thoughts as they arise and pass. For this one, report only on the direct experience of noticing each thought, not on the thought content (the words or pictures). (We'll look at thought content in a moment.) Can you discern a point of origin for a thought? A place where thoughts come from? Can you discern a point of destination for a thought? A place where thoughts go to? Or do they just arise and pass?

Now begin to notice the thought content, the words. Tell me whether these tend to be a kind of running commentary on experience, something like a sports announcer. There may be an inner sound that resembles your speaking voice. Let me know. Do most of these commentary thoughts refer to you? Do they tend to contain the words "I," "me," "my"? Look closely. Notice. Do they contain these words? We're just noticing the content as the thoughts arise and pass. Notice how many thoughts are past based, how many are future based and how many NOW based – give me a rough percentage.

Do thoughts arise, or does 'I' make them happen? How do you create a thought? Can you stop the thinking? If there is manager inside you should be able to stop thoughts al together especially unwanted ones – yes? Can you NOT think of a pink elephant? Can you give me a thought you do control? Do thought think? Can they do anything in the same way as clouds can not do anything to the sky? Are they are part of the scenery? So if you look at the mind as the sky and thought as a cloud, it is obvious that thoughts are just passing by and the sky is not holding on to any cloud. Notice in your daily experience - see how thoughts work? I do not want you to focus on the thoughts themselves just see them attach and extend - thoughts seemingly joining with others to create story. Look.

Before as in "i'm going to listen for...", During as in "what is that i hear" After as in "what was that i heard?"

Would each of those be labeled thoughts or can you find the controller of hearing?
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Hi Sarah, your willingness to do this astounds me, many thanks for your patience and time.

Look for it in experience. Every time you notice a ‘want’ look for a ‘who’ or an ‘I’ that wants.

Your statement is true in my experience.

Is there one in there or was it always just a thought passing?

The wanter does not exist, it is only the thought of someone wanting.

Can you discern a point of origin for a thought? A place where thoughts come from? Can you discern a point of destination for a thought? A place where thoughts go to? Or do they just arise and pass?

Thoughts don't arise and pass, it is more like a volcano in you head spewing molten thoughts. There seems to be no destination, one thought is attached to the next like a magician pulling multi colored scarfs out of a sleeve.

Now begin to notice the thought content, the words. Tell me whether these tend to be a kind of running commentary on experience, something like a sports announcer

Yes, the sports announcer is right on.

There may be an inner sound that resembles your speaking voice. Let me know.

There is a voice that speaks, but in my experience most people who hear a recording of their voice they feel it is not what they thought they sounded like. I feel the same way, the tempo and cadence seem right but I can't discern a voice. As I watch the thinking process it seems my eyes need to move left and right as the thought appears.

Do most of these commentary thoughts refer to you? Do they tend to contain the words "I," "me," "my"? Look closely. Notice. Do they contain these words?

I cant say that "most" of the thoughts contain posession. I do notice many of them contain "I need to as direction. I need to do this, I should have done that.

Notice how many thoughts are past based, how many are future based and how many NOW based – give me a rough percentage.

25% past 25% now 50% future.

Do thoughts arise, or does 'I' make them happen? How do you create a thought? Can you stop the thinking? If there is manager inside you should be able to stop thoughts al together especially unwanted ones – yes?

Thoughts arise then I takes credit for them, I cant make a thought happen or create one. Can't stop the thinking it goes on by itself.

I do not want you to focus on the thoughts themselves just see them attach and extend - thoughts seemingly joining with others to create story. Look.

Exactly right that is how I see it happening.

jbixman wrote:
Before as in "i'm going to listen for...", During as in "what is that i hear" After as in "what was that i heard?"

Would each of those be labeled thoughts or can you find the controller of hearing?

There is no controller of hearing, hearing happens.

Many Thanks
Jerry