Looking for some guidance

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that.

Right now my mind seems to have a dilemma with the pain and suffering the belief in this I has caused to others ( and myself ) throughout my life. This stirs feelings of guilt, blame and regret. If there is no i here then who is responsible for all the carnage this I has caused.

Let's look at 'the belief in this I', which, you say, has caused pain and suffering. Who has done that believing? Where does it come from? Who can take credit for its positives, blame for its negatives, and decide which are which?

Who are these 'others'? You say that when you looked for the I it was no longer anything but a thought. So how about 'others'? What is that? And who is the 'myself' who has suffered pain?

"Throughout my life": whose life?

How about 'carnage'? What is carnage? Who decides what is carnage and what is not carnage?

Now, the memories you mention, 'good' and 'bad': look at the references to past in them, the present feelings/emotions (of course they can only be in the present), the sense of self which arises. What is that?

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark,

Let's look at 'the belief in this I', which, you say, has caused pain and suffering. Who has done that believing? Where does it come from? Who can take credit for its positives, blame for its negatives, and decide which are which?

This I seems come from earliest memories. "This is me" and from there it's seems to have been continually attaching thoughts and feelings around it while trying to repulse other thoughts and feelings. Kind of like a single pole magnet that started out with this first thought " This is Me - I am Here". This is what seems to continually grow, think, choose, decide - basically everything in "my" life must go through there because that's all it knows. If that I doesn't exist then everything attached or repelled must likewise not exist.

Who are these 'others'? You say that when you looked for the I it was no longer anything but a thought. So how about 'others'? What is that? And who is the 'myself' who has suffered pain?

Myself is the I story. If there is no I for me then it would seem logical that there is no I for others, whether they are aware of it or not.

"Throughout my life": whose life?

This is the I stories life.

How about 'carnage'? What is carnage? Who decides what is carnage and what is not carnage?

The I stories carnage of course. A wake of destruction. The I decides.

Now, the memories you mention, 'good' and 'bad': look at the references to past in them, the present feelings/emotions (of course they can only be in the present), the sense of self which arises. What is that?

This once again is the I story remembering and judging based upon the feelings/emotions with that memory. Once the I is seen as not there, there is just a thought or collection of thoughts and a feeling that is able to be felt.

I don't know what else to write. Everything thought is now questioning the I within it.
Thank you for your direct questioning
Robert

[ElPortal]

HI Robert,

You're very welcome. Now look deeper still into the same questions, especially:-

1. Where does the 'belief in this I' (not 'this I' but the actual BELIEF in it) come from? Whose is that? Robert's?

2. "If that I doesn't exist then everything attached or repelled must likewise not exist."

Can you say any more about this? How can something not exist, or appear to exist? Can you give examples?

3. "If there is no I for me then it would seem logical that there is no I for others, whether they are aware of it or not".

No I for others, ok, but I ask again, what are these 'others'? I am not asking about what seems logical. Nor whether they are aware or aren't aware. This would all be deduction. I am asking, as you consider, now, who or what are 'they'? What are the sensations that occur?

4. "This is the I stories life."

Can a story have a life? Whose life?

5. What carnage? What is this, in reality? What wake of destruction? What does this mean? To whom?

So I am asking you to question not just 'the I', but the 'others' and the 'effects of actions'.

Please take time and ponder these, remembering to stay in the only place that is real: the here and now. Tell me what you experience, what comes up and where, rather than logical deductions etc.

All the best,

Mark

[ElPortal]

Sorry, editing problems!

Lastly, 6. "The I stories carnage of course. A wake of destruction. The I decides."

Who decides? How can a story decide or create anything?

Chrs

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Ok - good

1. Where does the 'belief in this I' (not 'this I' but the actual BELIEF in it) come from? Whose is that? Robert's?

At first I thought it came from others. But that didn't seem fully correct because then where did they get it from.
There seems to be a separateness that is identified with this body. This is me.
When looking for the origin of this belief It appears like any other idea or thought to arise out of nothing/nothingness.

2. "If that I doesn't exist then everything attached or repelled must likewise not exist."
Can you say any more about this? How can something not exist, or appear to exist? Can you give examples?

It seems the belief in the I makes it exist within the mind, which seems to be another belief.
Something cannot not exist because then it would be nothing. Something appears to exist because I can sense it. The 5 senses plus feeling, perceiving (awareness of) A table a chair a feeling a thought.

3. "If there is no I for me then it would seem logical that there is no I for others, whether they are aware of it or not".
No I for others, ok, but I ask again, what are these 'others'? I am not asking about what seems logical. Nor whether they are aware or aren't aware. This would all be deduction. I am asking, as you consider, now, who or what are 'they'? What are the sensations that occur?

Right here right now " they" are an idea. The sensations that occur depend on which one of the "they" I am thinking about.

4. "This is the I stories life."
Can a story have a life? Whose life?

A story is a collection of thoughts therefore they cannot have a life.

5. What carnage? What is this, in reality? What wake of destruction? What does this mean? To whom?

It is a thought about a thought about an experience (which right here right now is another thought).
Everything is thought. If the I is part of that thought it has meaning. Pleasure, pain, like, dislike, good, bad, with infinite variations and combinations. Without the I it is just the thought of having the experience of power, achievement, failure, betrayal, love, peace, pain, relief and on and on. Again with infinite variations and combinations.

Who decides?

A story cannot. A thought cannot. An idea cannot. A belief cannot.
Then Who? Then What?
Are decisions even made or is it just impulsive conditioned behavior? Moving through life like an animal?

How can a story decide or create anything?

A story cannot decide. A thought cannot decide but if believed in does it not create? Isn't everything created from thought? Who chooses the thoughts? Who then decides what thoughts are believed in? Who then believes?


These last 2 questions have created more questions which maybe distracting me from seeing the obvious - I don't know.

I think that's it for now
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for all that. So far so good. Sometimes when we think we're getting distracted, actually the truth is tapping us right on the shoulder....in fact all the time!

Before we go further I would like just to return to a couple of fundamental points (like checking pulse!). Your answers may be similar to before, or they may have altered; that does not matter. Again, take your time and just answer frankly from your current experience.

1. So, looking at life now, should anything be different from the way it is? If so what, and how should it be different? How about in the (so-called) past?

2. What do you find, what is your sense, when looking for a separate 'myself' or Robert?

3. Then I'd like to do a really of simple exercise: Choose a drink. Simple as that. (Or, if you're not thirsty, look at the last drink you chose). Now take time and consider. How did the choice take place? Where in the body? What was the process? What were the apparent options? What role did conditioning play? Previous choices, time of day, what's available, 'that's what I always have' etc etc? Then consider where is 'I' in that? Is 'I' anymore than a thought? What evidence can you find for a real 'I' making that choice.

4. If you have any further observations, feelings etc regarding the previous post, those are of course welcome too.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Thanks for those questions
I need a little more time for complete answers
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
These questions are frying my brain. So I will just answer in the right here what I see and feel.

1. So, looking at life now, should anything be different from the way it is?

Should anything be different? Initial response is Yes. I need. I want. I desire. Each one of these is just a thought. There seem to be a quite a number of these types of thoughts. As an I thought it has meaning/emotion. Without the I it is just a thought with maybe residual emotion left over from the the I-ness. This then is felt as the experience of that emotion which then seems to fade back to nothingness. There is also I thoughts of expectations. If anything should be different it always an I thought.

If so what, and how should it be different?

My sense is it cannot be different than what is or it would be something else.

How about in the (so-called) past?

Looking at "the past" I had this impression that from the vilest most despicable thought(action) to the most sublime, holiest thought(action) and everything in between in infinite variations is love expressing and interacting with itself. All of it is thought expressing and experiencing but somehow observed and unaffected.

2. What do you find, what is your sense, when looking for a separate 'myself' or Robert?

My sense is that Robert is an idea, a fictional character in a fictional story. Somehow seeing this while looking through the eyes of this character. Myself seems to be beyond comprehension.

3. Then I'd like to do a really of simple exercise: Choose a drink. Simple as that. (Or, if you're not thirsty, look at the last drink you chose). Now take time and consider.

This was not simple at all. Even trying to observe this seemed challenging and then It had made looking at everything I was doing. This is the best I can see at this moment.

How did the choice take place?

I saw something I felt something or I thought something.

Where in the body?

Very general if I had to try and narrow it down I would say more the chest area.

What was the process?

It's seems to be more like an impression with maybe an image.

What were the apparent options? What role did conditioning play? Previous choices, time of day, what's available, 'that's what I always have' etc etc? Then consider where is 'I' in that? Is 'I' anymore than a thought? What evidence can you find for a real 'I' making that choice.

"I think" I have options but it no seems to be only one unless I start thinking about it. I would say conditioning did have a roll in these apparent choices. That seems disheartening. But what is conditioning. Conditioned thinking. Conditioned thoughts. Likes, dislikes, beliefs - repetitive thoughts. The I only seems to emerge when thinking about the choice or the doing of the chosen thing.
I don't know about this. I seem to be missing something.

4. If you have any further observations, feelings etc regarding the previous post, those are of course welcome too.

Nothing else at this moment
Thanks for all your help with this
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for those.

So, leaving mental analysis aside, what actually arises, in your 'now' experience, when you consider 'This IS IT'?

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Shall respond shortly
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Wasn't sure if should even write yet.
Your three word question has really cut to the quick.
This is it.
First thought - thank god
Then, of course it is, were you expecting something else.
Then, dammit I'm screwed. Then I am besieged with I am thoughts. My mantra has been "everything is just thought. There is no I. There is no self." I have been looking at these thoughts as they are emerging ( bombarding might be a better word). Some are more persistent than others. This could be never ending. Can they be alleviated in one fell swoop (seeing)? Is there a tipping point where this illusion just falls away?
I don't know how you can help me with this. I feel like a Ping pong ball.
Right now the question comes up if this is it, then what is still seeking?
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Great.

So is it really alleviation from thoughts that is sought, or is it seeing them for what they are: just thoughts? Is it really this illusion falling away that is sought, or is it seeing the illusion for what it is: just an illusion? Does anything really need to be anything else than just what it is?

"Right now the question comes up if this is it, then what is still seeking?"

Yes, the movement towards seeking - but by and for WHOM or WHAT?

Look carefully: is there a separate entity, a separate 'self' or 'me' at all, anywhere there, separate from 'this is it'? Was there ever? Again, just take your time and answer as you find.

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Just a gentle reminder: you agreed to post at least once each day, even if only to say 'still here'.

Earnestness = ripeness -> clear seeing.

Wassup?

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Sorry about that. I am most earnest and diligent. Ripe or ripening. Hmm. I have been right here contemplating these questions and the beliefs they stir up. The trouble has been every time I sit to write the answers I don't seem to have any.

How can I answer these questions when the questions themselves are the answers.
I shall force myself to put something down on paper, so to speak.

I have this sense I am right here looking and logically I can answer all your questions (because the questions are the answers, I can see that) but there must be something more than that.
As the belief in "self" falls away I feel that ... See I can't even finish that sentence because there is no self to fall anywhere.
I can't quite get it. There should be something more.
Who can't quite get it? "I"
So of course, " I can't quite get it." How can a thought get anything.

Is there not a clarity of seeing that leaves no doubt?

Yes, the movement towards seeking - but by and for WHOM or WHAT?

This must be the idea of self. But that does not seem entirely true. It seems as if looking itself is searching, seeking. Looking for more than what is here. Looking for something in the nothingness.

Look carefully: is there a separate entity, a separate 'self' or 'me' at all, anywhere there, separate from 'this is it'? Was there ever? Again, just take your time and answer as you find.

No there is not, I cannot see a separate entity but I still feel like me. There is a just a collection of thoughts that seemingly keep "me" struggling. This has taken me all day and I am more frustrated now than I have been in 3 days.
It seems I saw it, felt it and now ... I don't know. Maybe mental analysis gets in my way of direct seeing.
I am not even sure what I have written here. A collection of mish mosh.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert

Good work.

Ah yes, 'beliefs they stir up': well said! Once our beliefs, assumptions and acquired concepts are all truly dismantled there is nothing left (... except the seeing, WHAT IS, what Life is doing!)

Here are what we call our 'final questions'. (You addressed the first one in your last message.) Again, take your time, answer honestly from your now experience and let's see what comes up:-

1. Is there a separate entity, 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5. Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6. Anything to add?

Cheers

Mark