Guide needed with much gratitude x

[Shunyata]

[quote]In what way do you have control over emotions? /quote]

I thought if i controlled or suppressed the thought then the emotions would not come but i can see now that if i have no control over thoughts then how can i control emotions, besides the longer i have this conversation the more i can see there is no "I" so there is no one having thoughts or emotions !! :/

[quote]Yes, thoughts arise and fall on their own. But not just some thoughts. ALL thoughts.
/quote]

I can see this from experience

[quote]Heres a few questions, I would ask you to look at each of them, and , rather than thinking about what the answer is, actually DO the exercise, and observe what is happening with thought. So, LOOK, rather than think
/quote]

can i predict my next thought - no i can't, only when i am suppressing them so i know what is there.
Can i choose my next thought - No i guess not, i can say "i will think the word dog" and then say it to myself in my head but i am guessing that is not included, lol.
Try and choose a random thought - Again i can pick a random word but not a thought. OK, i can see that "I" am not in control of my thoughts. :)

[quote]are you saying that no negative thoughts come up in liberation? Are you saying that free flowing ( I am guessing you mean non "sticky" thoughts?) are never negative?
/quote]

I think i am partly assuming and partly basing my experience of being in liberation (which lets be honest is limited / not constant). Full liberation i believe is creative and positive with love, compassion and positive emotion, the "I" completely gone and all it's traces.

When you fight to keep the thoughts away, can you actually do it? - no i can't and it causes me much stress and headache trying !!

What if the doubting thoughts, the "oh no, I dont want to be like that " , the thoughts about liberation and how a "liberated" person should act, are all also rising and falling, on their own? Take a look and see if they are? Are you actively doing them? - they are rising and falling on their own but i am going to watch this one throughout the day.

so you(you # 1) are afraid of looking at the "I"(you #2)? How many selves are in there? - I KNOW I KNOW !! WAY TOO MANY :) It seems insane when you start looking at it

You have all these thoughts about how it "should" be. So you have thoughts about "The I is a bad thing" "The ego is bad and I want rid of it" "I am scared of the I", and then when you think you see the self return, you get upset because your ideas and beliefs dont match up with reality. but these are just beliefs you have learned. You dont need to get rid of the I, or the ego. They are not bad. Thats not what this is about - i do know this .

We need to take a step back here. Forget about all your beliefs about this, and instead, take a clear look at how things actually are _ good idea.

In direct experience , sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, can you find an "I" anywhere?

Close your eyes and listen to a sound. Is there a sound over there, and an "I" over here, listening to the sound?

There is an experience of the sound. Can you find the experiencer?

Notice how thoughts label the sound. How they maybe draw a mental picture of you sitting in the room, over "here", with the sound occuring over "there", how they claim "I am hearing that". Is it true? Is there a sound, an experience of a sound, and an experiencer?

Do this with the other senses also, if you can

The "I" is not the body - even though my thought tell me things like "i am fat". The body is made up of limbs and the limbs can be broken down into other processes until we reach quantum levels of emptiness, therefore there is no solid entity in the body.

The "I" is not in the sight but when something is visually seen that is appealing to the conditioned "I" thoughts of wanting it arise. I am not sure how this is working.

The "I" is not in the touch, taste or smell, there are no solid entities anywhere to be found in any of it, just emptiness.

I can see the "I" does not exist in any of the senses but the senses trigger thoughts, is this right ? The senses trigger memories of things and experience which we attach a sense of self to ??

[quote]So various thoughts and memories come up right? when was the last time I had an apple? Which one did I choose last time? Which one do I like better? Do I even want one at all? Etc etc. And also maybe, thoughts and memories of what each one tastes like. Are you actually tasting , or are these just mental representations of what they taste like? The only sense input you have had so far is sight and maybe smell. And yet there you are, "tasting" each fruit. Are you actually tasting the fruit in reality?

How much of this flow of thoughts and memories are you actively doing? Or is it just a stream of thoughts and memories ( and "ghost" sense input) which you have no control over?
/quote]

Ok so i know the answer is i am not doing them but i need to look at this more closely.

[quote]If you cant find the point at which "you" choose, then can you be said to be the chooser?
/quote]

Interesting ....

[quote]What is the difference between free flowing thought and non free flowing thought ( note, this is not a trick question, and I am not looking for a "correct" answer, you obviously have some way of distinguishing, or at least think that some thoughts are free flowing and others not)/quote]

Assuming by this that ALL thought is free flowing, i do believe you but trying to stop or suppress the thoughts makes them feel none free flowing, i am a bit confused by this.

[quote]Look and see. Can you find where the thoughts and choices come from?/quote]

Will give it some thought. Thanks for all this, there is shifts happening by the day

[neeeel]

I will reply in more depth tomorrow, but just to say

Ok so i know the answer is i am not doing them but i need to look at this more closely.

Assuming by this that ALL thought is free flowing, i do believe you but trying to stop or suppress the thoughts makes them feel none free flowing, i am a bit confused by this.

please please please do not assume anything. Do not take my word for it, or start believing that you know the answer before you have investigated. you need to look for yourself, at how thoughts really happen, at how emotions really happen.

I just asked you about free flowing thoughts from your perspective, from what you believe now. You are distinguishing between free flowing and non free flowing thoughts, and I just wondered what you meant by that

[Shunyata]

ok :)

[Shunyata]

So this morning at the gym i had an interesting experience.

Background - "I" have had an "eating disorder" for most of my life (i am 38 now and it started at 9) Over the last 18 months "the eating disorder" has lessened and lessened its grip until this new year it seemed to be gone. I have not been on the scales to weigh myself in a few months because "I" was feeling better about being heavier but his morning it felt ok to see how much i weighed. Clear headed and connected to the world i stepped on the scales and i had lost weight. This would always be seen as a "good thing". This triggered lots of thoughts in my head about "my" body and how "I" felt about it to the point that i was looking in the mirror checking what i looked like (something i had not really done for a long time).
It was at this point i realized that i had gone from being clear headed and connected to "identified with my thoughts" and because of this lost connection with the reality, i even appeared to look and feel more "solid" big penny dropped.

This is all happening right now so i am going to try and analyze it while i am talking to you.

"I" is a construct that has been learned from very young, we are born into the body and then conditioned life begins. We become identified with this "I" and believe it to be who we are. We are told, you can't do this, can't do that, we are told ghosts do not exist. This identification with thought causes us a lot of suffering because it is impermanent but the identification causes us to think this sense of "I" is stable and fixed, this causes us to look for satisfaction in the wrong places, in my case food. In reality (and i mean true reality not the deluded existence of thought) All "things" are just mental representations so not even "eating disorder" fundamentally exists either. In fact all "things" can be taken down to quantum emptiness - good old Buddha.

The reality of true existence is that in which all things flow and are equal, there is no separation between self and other, in fact there is no separation between self and anything as all "things" have the same nature. There is no self and there is no other and there is no thing that has solid existence. I have seen this directly, visually for 16 years but never properly understood it. There are problems with being aware of this though - i don't actually know how to function in the world properly and relate to other beings, maybe it just needs time to filter through. I have a very good connection with life as we all do but i don't know how to "be", how to integrate all this.

I am very grateful for finding this site - you have no idea how much.

[neeeel]

So this morning at the gym i had an interesting experience.

Background - "I" have had an "eating disorder" for most of my life (i am 38 now and it started at 9) Over the last 18 months "the eating disorder" has lessened and lessened its grip until this new year it seemed to be gone. I have not been on the scales to weigh myself in a few months because "I" was feeling better about being heavier but his morning it felt ok to see how much i weighed. Clear headed and connected to the world i stepped on the scales and i had lost weight. This would always be seen as a "good thing". This triggered lots of thoughts in my head about "my" body and how "I" felt about it to the point that i was looking in the mirror checking what i looked like (something i had not really done for a long time).

Is it clear that these thoughts, feelings and actions are not being done by a "you"? That thoughts came up, feelings were felt, and decisions were taken to do certain actions?

It was at this point i realized that i had gone from being clear headed and connected to "identified with my thoughts" and because of this lost connection with the reality, i even appeared to look and feel more "solid" big penny dropped.

Is it possible to lose connection with reality? How does that happen? Sure, there are thoughts saying "I have lost connection with reality" but there is no "I" that can lose connection with reality. There is no I, anywhere. This is what we are looking at. There was a set of feelings and thoughts, labelled "clear headed and connected" and then another set of feelings and thoughts labelled "identified with thoughts" , but there is no possessor of these, no owner, no one that this is happening to. Thoughts are claiming that one set of feelings and thoughts is superior, or more desirable than the other.

Stop, take a breath, and allow both ( sets of feelings and thoughts) to be , when each comes up. Observe how, with each one, the thoughts and feelings are just happening, how the labelling thoughts are just happening. Can you stop them? Look around your room, at objects, and notice how labels pop up for objects you look at. Are you actively doing this labelling, thinking the thoughts?

We need more observing of the processes, and less analysis and thinking about the processes.

"I" is a construct that has been learned from very young, we are born into the body and then conditioned life begins.

In what way are we born into the body? You need to be really honest here

[Shunyata]

I need to reply but i can't see your reply from earlier and i know its here as i read it once. I will reply when i return home.

Just wanted to say that i just came out of Puja - Consciousness is what "watches" everything, clarity so sharp and piercing it could penetrate the delusion of self. At "birth" this one consciousness enters into a "single" consciousness at the point of the semen and egg of the "parents" (it is not single though) The type of birth depends on the aggregates (as the buddhists call them) Dependent on these aggregates a name is given to the "form" the parents in their conditioned deluded state call it "peter" or "john" and so the conditioned life begins. The human form grows and is taught that it is seperate from everything, it is taught subject and object and descrimination. It learns to believe these labels/mental representations and becomes deeply intrencehd in this identity. Liberation is about returning to the state before a name was given, even though "you" never left this state, the self is a delusion to protect "us" from the fear of death and annihilation, no one wants to believe thay are insignificant and inpermanent. Liberation is about aweking to the fact that there was never a self and lifting the veil to what has always just "being" x

[neeeel]

I need to reply but i can't see your reply from earlier and i know its here as i read it once. I will reply when i return home.

Just wanted to say that i just came out of Puja - Consciousness is what "watches" everything, clarity so sharp and piercing it could penetrate the delusion of self. At "birth" this one consciousness enters into a "single" consciousness at the point of the semen and egg of the "parents" (it is not single though) The type of birth depends on the aggregates (as the buddhists call them) Dependent on these aggregates a name is given to the "form" the parents in their conditioned deluded state call it "peter" or "john" and so the conditioned life begins. The human form grows and is taught that it is seperate from everything, it is taught subject and object and descrimination. It learns to believe these labels/mental representations and becomes deeply intrencehd in this identity. Liberation is about returning to the state before a name was given, even though "you" never left this state, the self is a delusion to protect "us" from the fear of death and annihilation, no one wants to believe thay are insignificant and inpermanent. Liberation is about aweking to the fact that there was never a self and lifting the veil to what has always just "being" x

Sorry, but none of this is about looking. Its all stories, concepts and conjecture.

[Shunyata]

[quote]Sorry, but none of this is about looking. Its all stories, concepts and conjecture./quote]

It was a direct experience through the senses. I came out of the Puja but while i was in it a shift happened, it felt like a blockage had cleared and clarity flooded in, There was light, lots of it and everything looked clear but not quite as crisp as i have experienced before. I knew in that state, that moment that this was how is it, i had been looking earlier that day as to what it is that was "aware" of things when i was aware of thoughts arising and it came to me in meditative state.

I know consciousness is all one and through everything, i knew this 16 years ago when i first experienced it, before i had even heard of Buddha. This has happened to me many times but it has never stayed. I didn't come on here to find liberation so to speak as, i came on here because i knew something was missing to my experience and to experience liberation fully i needed help. This has really helped me to understand what i have been through. I still have some things to understand but i am talking from experience. I walked home and my mind was like a diamond, the clarity felt like it would cut through anything, including delusion and the people looked so crisp, i just didn't know in that moment how to be with them. I knew there was no "I" and i knew that whilst i used words they were just concepts but still didn't feel right to say, like speech ruined things.

The birth part is a belief, i am not sure how i could see my birth and the time my consciousness entered my body but through experience i know that -

[quote] a name is given to the "form" the parents in their conditioned deluded state call it "peter" or "john" and so the conditioned life begins. The human form grows and is taught that it is seperate from everything, it is taught subject and object and descrimination. It learns to believe these labels/mental representations and becomes deeply intrencehd in this identity.

- i have lived 30 years of torture if i'm fair and honest, the belief in a none existent self has tortured a none existent me, if anyone understands conditioned existence and what it causes and where it comes from i do. I was in therapy to understand the ego.

Liberation is about returning to the state before a name was given, even though "you" never left this state, the self is a delusion to protect "us" from the fear of death and annihilation, no one wants to believe thay are insignificant and inpermanent. Liberation is about aweking to the fact that there was never a self and lifting the veil to what has always just "being" x/quote]

- i have seen the true nature of reality and when vision arises the higher self just knows things, i don't know how else to explain this ;/

[Shunyata]

Ok, lets start from scratch and i will follow exactly what you tell me to - where do i start ?

[Shunyata]

OK, i am up and ready to look. I trust the process and am ready to give it my full effort.

[Shunyata]

[quote]There is an experience of the sound. Can you find the experiencer?

Notice how thoughts label the sound. How they maybe draw a mental picture of you sitting in the room, over "here", with the sound occuring over "there", how they claim "I am hearing that". Is it true? Is there a sound, an experience of a sound, and an experiencer?

Do this with the other senses also, if you can/quote]

I can hear a sound but there is no experiencer, i am aware that there is just consciousness aware of the sound. Thoughts try to work out what the sound is as it is a sound not recognized, thoughts try to match it with something from memory. Thoughts label "things" including "me" as a "person".

[quote]In what way are we born into the body? You need to be really honest here/quote]

"we" are not born into the body, i have looked and on a physical level there is no "I" so there cannot be a "we" therefore the birth of an "I" is not possible.

[neeeel]

Hi, sorry for the delay in replying

It was a direct experience through the senses

No, sorry , it wasnt. I am not denying that you had some sort of experience, but then you came up with a whole load of stories about birth , death etc ( which may or may not be true, but its not what we are interested in at the moment)

Consciousness is what "watches" everything

i am aware that there is just consciousness aware of the sound

In direct experience, can you find "consciousness"? Is there a consciousness over here , exeperiencing the sound over there? can you find the dividing line between consciousness and experience?

to experience liberation fully i needed help

How do you know when you are experiencing liberation fully? It might be useful to say a bit about what you think/expect liberation to be like.

What we are looking for is not a mental state, or specific experience ( although these may happen while looking), we are simply looking to see if we can find a self anywhere.

This has happened to me many times but it has never stayed.

Interesting. so you expect this clarity to stay always, and if its not there, then that shows that you are not liberated?

i came on here because i knew something was missing to my experience

How do you know something was missing to your experience? Do you know what reality, what experience, should be like?

i have seen the true nature of reality and when vision arises the higher self just knows things

Tell me more about the higher self

[Shunyata]

[quote]In direct experience, can you find "consciousness"? Is there a consciousness over here , exeperiencing the sound over there? can you find the dividing line between consciousness and experience?
/quote]

I am aware of something but it is not an "I" maybe a better word is awareness.

How do you know when you are experiencing liberation fully? It might be useful to say a bit about what you think/expect liberation to be like.

i think it is a clarity that penetrates through all delusion and sense of self, it is immense compassion that holds love for all existence, it is interconnectivity and equanimity. It is an unwavering state of equanimity. it is freedom from all egoic thought. It is the transcendence of the personality into higher states and awareness, It is thought without traces of compulsion or conditioning. It is a state with no craving, suffering or ignorance and no ill will to others. Does this sound like liberation to you ? if it does not please correct me as i really need to straighten up my beliefs if they are incorrect. I am talking about full liberation not stream entry.

[quote]What we are looking for is not a mental state, or specific experience ( although these may happen while looking), we are simply looking to see if we can find a self anywhere./quote]

Ok, i have looked and find no self yet it keeps coming back, every day its grip is weaker but it always gets me with ill will to others, annoyance and irritation. There is no sense craving any more, that has gone.

[quote]How do you know something was missing to your experience? Do you know what reality, what experience, should be like?/quote]

My mental states are very up and down, something is missing in my experiencing of things, i have felt this for a long time. If it was all in place i would not still have the ego.

[quote]Tell me more about the higher self/quote]

Maybe it is the wrong thing to call it the higher self. It is a place or state of mind where things are just known, where vision of things arises, where wisdom resides and knows everything, it is connected to everything, it has knowledge that i could not possibly know yet it has somehow fed "me" this knowledge in the past 20 years and this has guided me to near enlightenment. It is something that had it not been there i would be dead, when i have been at the depths of despair and doubt it has guided me through. As i am typing i am thinking that maybe this is just the way things are but i have never met and talked to anyone else that has shared my experiences, i am very lost on my own and trying to find meaning a explanation to all this, trying to make sense of what seems like to the ego to be insane and not real yet the higher part knows its the reality of life.

I seriously need to be free from this s**t. :/

[Shunyata]

I am through. I know you will want to ask questions. I will answer tonight as i need to go and experience the world.

[neeeel]

Hey,

I know in your last post you say you are through, but I am going to respond to the previous post anyway, and wait to hear what you say in your next post.

I am aware of something but it is not an "I" maybe a better word is awareness.

Is awareness aware of awareness? Maybe thats not a useful question :D

Is awareness you? Is it an entity? Does awareness actually DO anything ( apart from being aware?). Is it awareness that is thinking the thoughts, and making the decisions?

i think it is a clarity that penetrates through all delusion and sense of self, it is immense compassion that holds love for all existence, it is interconnectivity and equanimity. It is an unwavering state of equanimity. it is freedom from all egoic thought. It is the transcendence of the personality into higher states and awareness, It is thought without traces of compulsion or conditioning. It is a state with no craving, suffering or ignorance and no ill will to others. Does this sound like liberation to you ? if it does not please correct me as i really need to straighten up my beliefs if they are incorrect. I am talking about full liberation not stream entry.

All this may or may not be liberation/enlightenment, but as I mentioned before, here in this forum we are looking at one thing, the existence or non existence of a self.

On a side note, I am sure adyashanti , and others, have said that cravings, suffering, egoic thoughts DO arise for them, its just that they are recognised instantly for what they are.

States come and go ( although I am not "liberated" in the sense you talk about above, so maybe when you reach that level, you are in one steady state). Do you have any control over the state you are in?

Ok, i have looked and find no self yet it keeps coming back, every day its grip is weaker but it always gets me with ill will to others, annoyance and irritation. There is no sense craving any more, that has gone.

If there is no self, then how does it "keep coming back?" What is it that keeps coming back?
You say you have looked and found no self, and yet you obviously do find one, because "it keeps coming back".
Thoughts are saying "you shouldnt be feeling ill will to others". Do you have any control over what you are feeling, and what thoughts are saying? Are you choosing to feel ill will, and are you thinking the thought "I shouldnt be feeling ill will to others?"

My mental states are very up and down, something is missing in my experiencing of things, i have felt this for a long time. If it was all in place i would not still have the ego.

That is an unreal expectation, and I think you dont quite get it yet.

There is no you to have an ego. There is no you to get, or gain , enlightenment. We are simply looking at this fact, there is no you , at all, anywhere.
We are not looking to remove, kill off, or otherwise destroy, anything.

There is just a bunch of sensations, and thoughts about those sensations. Both the sensations, and the thoughts, are happening automatically, "you" are not doing, or having , or experiencing, any of them.