The Gate

Morning Cristina,

I don't know if it's irrelevant and if I'm actually looking in the wrong direction, paying attention to the wrong things,

Don't worry about worrying.

There was not paying attention to them at first, but then, slowly, one by one "I" started believing them. When I wrote to you yesterday I said that I did not believe them; but what I can say now is that I started believing them and in the same time I knew that they were not true. It was like a pull towards experiencing reality from on old point of view.

I'm not being dismissive here, but this is just old conditioning kicking in again. i suspect that it wasn't that you were believing them again but that you were accepting them. The old ways have many years of reinforcement behind them, and the new way still feels hollow. It has no real solidarity yet. (remember the video)

Then a battle between 2 kind of thoughts appeared: the ones that were there from the "beginning" and the ones who were based on the memory of the seeing.

Haha, thoughts battling each other. What a great image. Swords clanging, shouts of "I am the ruler here.", "No, I am."
The trick here Cristina is to recognize that thoughts are just thoughts, and what is real is the response to them.

But still all this was felt like not being personal, not happening to a me.

Excellent, already some dis-identification with the old happening.

and there it was the "I" in full-time mode.

That's fine. It's a good 'place' to rest. The habitual takes little energy. It's the point of recognition that you are in story land (selfing/personhood) that is the value spot. (The time to laugh)

And even though there is no energy for direct looking, there is for a feeling of some sort of sadness, or sorrow and for tears.

It's a bit like you have been watching a 3D movie and now it has transformed into a 2D comic book story. Before you were immersed and now there is more interest in the way the characters are drawn than the (boring) story. The sadness is (probably) to do with saying goodbye to the old familiar ways.
Is there any point in trying to change THIS ? It's already happened and is becoming memory.

If I look right now, there are slight glimpses of this but they are slippery and don't stay.

Do you have expectations of a permanent experience ?

I'm sorry...

Stop ! Are you responding to a story that says vince will be ... (something) ?
It's all a waste of energy. Don't do "sorry" with vince.

thank you again for doing this.

It's just happening. (no me here to do it) Cristina and vince are just two of the infinite conditions that have aligned to have this occur. No control.

love

vince

Hi Vince,

Different experience here today. No more hanging out with the crazy army of thoughts about thoughts about stuff about a 'me'. Nope. Don't know "who" dumped "who" but they're gone (actually there was no dumping, it just happened....hmmm, which can be said about every dumping...actually about everything).

I'm not being dismissive here, but this is just old conditioning kicking in again.

What actually helped was reading the above. And the key word was "dismissive". Go figure. The mind was puzzled at first, did not understand why the word is there; there was even a tilting of the head when looking at the word, followed by the sound 'mmm?', exactly how a confused puppy does. An then: Bang! Ding ding ding (like the sound that the slot machines make when you win). It was clear as day that they're just thoughts. All of them, looked at together, or one by one...it did not matter, they were just plain old thoughts appearing like they did so many many times before. And even the thought "Hey! They should not be here!" was another old thought that hangs out with the other ones. It's even the same old sequence too, the same order. There was this expectation that they would go away when "I" tell them too (how absurd), or beg them too, or show them how much suffering they create (not that they're creating it) and maybe they'll have mercy. Ha! Being at the mercy of thoughts, now that's funny. The thoughts that keep coming back (the old conditioning kicking in), they have an expiration date on then, I've seen it; it's clear and visible and written in big bold letters: "SOON" (evil laugh happening right now).

I get now what you're saying:

It's the point of recognition that you are in story land (selfing/personhood) that is the value spot. (The time to laugh)
The trick here Cristina is to recognize that thoughts are just thoughts, and what is real is the response to them.

There was a thought that kept appearing that was in the way of this recognition: "If there's a thought that says that the others are just thoughts, then it doesn't count". But, there's a big BUT here; if one believes this thought, then they're kept in a loop, in a vicious circle, like a self-supporting structure. Indeed, recognition of the conditioning is not a thought that is believed, but in this case, when being kept hostage in crazyland (it's like hypnosis on speed), a thought that says "Stop! These are just thoughts" is the starting point, the sign to the exit door that leads to "real" recognition.

Do you have expectations of a permanent experience ?

When I read the question the answer that came was: Oh yessss! And then the expectation had to come out of it's hiding place. Busted! It looked like a little kid that drags his feet away from the playground, and his head is down, he's sad because he knows that he has to leave, that playtime is over. This "little" expectation was here from the beginning, but it stayed in the background, in the shadows where you kind of know that it's there but you don't pay much attention to it. The motto of this search, that was always playing in the background (and sometimes in your face) and that sounded like the people who unite their voices at a protest and ask for whatever they're asking in a slightly angry, but filled with energy, chanting, was: What do I want? I want enlightenment (peace, end of suffering, joy, no self, truth, etc)! When do I want it? NOW!. The mind thinks in analogies today, so writing in analogies happens.

Is there any point in trying to change THIS ? It's already happened and is becoming memory.

"Vince, you are a wizard!" came. I know that I'm not writing to a wizard right now (never say never though...), but there's amazement of how fast and efficient and perfect this thing works. "You" write something, "I" read it, and bam! No. There is no point trying, fighting, fighting with the fighting, praying to the gods, in the hopes of changing THIS. And not just because what was a second ago is memory, but because what is right now IS. The thoughts, the seeing, the chanting, the cat that's in my face and won't let me write...everything IS and can't not be THIS.

Stop ! Are you responding to a story that says vince will be ... (something) ?
It's all a waste of energy. Don't do "sorry" with vince.
It's just happening. (no me here to do it) Cristina and vince are just two of the infinite conditions that have aligned to have this occur. No control.

Yes! I get that! I really get that. No more sorrys, worries, or thank-yous (that come from old conditioning where there's a "me" who goes into the "too polite" region sometimes and who's eternally grateful to "vince" that he does this). You asked for it to stop:)). I remember I wrote in one of the posts something like: benefits for me from this, and you getting something out of this or you would not be here...now this sounds stupid ;it's seen from a different perspective where it looks to be something completely different, not like an exchange of 'benefits' between two persons with various conditioning and needs.

After I saw that thoughts are just thoughts, the gallery of pointers from the site came to mind. I'll visit that more often, because there are some powerful mind-stopping pointers there (of course there are!). After the fifth picture a shift occurred where there was a deeper dis-identification(as you called it) and right now there is a me and there isn't a me at the same time, an oscillation between x and y, a dance between recognition and 'sleeping' back again (the lyrics of 'high hopes' from pink floyd came to mind: "Steps taken forwards but sleepwalking back again/ Dragged by the force of some inner tide" ) is accepted and seen to be perfect because let's face, it is, even if there's agreeing with it or not. Plus, this mind is in a playful-puppy kind of mood right now and honestly it's really hard to resist not to have fun with it.

Have a great day,

Cristina

http://1ness.info/eq.htm You can read this in a browser on any device (any smartphone, computer, iPad etc)

i will get back to your post in a couple of hours.

love

vince

Hi Vince,

I received the link you’ve send. I will definitely use it.
I wanted to add something to what I wrote yesterday. Now, after some sleep, the mind is much more quiet. The thoughts that came yesterday and the general mood of the body was one that was filled with excitement and playfulness. The day before, it was dark, chaotic and heavy. And today (so far), it’s quiet and peaceful. What is noticed here is that it all just happened; there could not be somebody who creates, controls (or tries to), fights or accepts all that. And, even this seeing is not achieved by somebody. Another thing noticed, observed, is that something is changing. You wrote about the brain going through changes after SEEing. It’s almost palpable.

During the last years, where an intense search was going on, and doubting what was so familiar and my existence was my day to day normality, the conditioning went through a lot of changes. There were shifts and clicks that were almost felt physically. The body-mind organism (as David Carse calls it) is so so different today from how it was before. I also started to notice a difference between two types of thoughts: the ones that come from conditioning and there were thoughts that just appeared and had a different feel to them, like coming from nowhere. For example: “I have to buy that magazine” (and I don’t buy magazines) where an article about a book that helps you quit smoking easily, was read; found the book online because I wanted to mock it, but was also curious from a psychological point of view; started reading it out of curiosity without having any desire whatsoever to quit smoking (in 8 years it never occurred to me to quit); Read it in two days, smoked my last cigarette and that was it. After that an intense emotional imbalance occurred (I smoked more than one pack a day, every single day, and the cigarette was used as a coping mechanism in almost every aspect of this life). After a few months of not knowing what to do with the intense emotions (it was like an emotional detox), searching began when my boyfriend (out of desperation probably:)) found a book online about meditating (not that I meditated since then but it was the start). That was 4 years ago. Every time “I” did not listen to the second category of thoughts, a new way was found to achieve that (even a dramatic one like an accident that did not let me start a new time consuming project the next day; that would have meant less time invested in this search; that’s how the accident was interpreted). Answers came out of nowhere (aka insights) when there was intense questioning; a new way of relating to reality became more and more clear. Where I’m getting at is that before, I saw all this as: I do what I do, what feels “right” and let myself be moulded and guided as best as I can in those key moments.

But now, this is seen different. It’s like a dance between conditioning (or the body-mind org) and something else. It’s like conditioning, this mind, is going through changes that need to happen. I’m not talking about the reaction of this b-m organism to the everyday exterior reality (so to speak), but of deep altering changes. That’s what is felt in this moment. A sense of awe and appreciation is present. All the struggling and suffering had to happen because it did happen. But no struggling is needed now for the changes to take place. At least not in this moment. It's so sweet and subtle but decisive and evident at the same time. Just wanted to write this because it is what is experienced now.
But even the talk about body-mind organism and conditioning and changes, is seen to be just talk when brief moments of THISing are experienced.
Going again to the dentist today. Who knows what conditioning will be triggered there and all the “talk” from this morning will fly out the window :)). Actually there’s curiosity about how today will be experienced…hmmm…that’s a first.

Looking forward to your post.
Cristina

Cristina, answer these questions please. (...unless there is something more ?)
i know they cover ground already trod. They are designed to reveal any lingering identification.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

i need to get 3 others to confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate, then you will be invited to join a Facebook group where 'gatecrashers' support each other.
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in these groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.(when confirmation occurs)
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

love
vince

Morning Vince,

Cristina, answer these questions please. (...unless there is something more ?)

No, there isn't :).
It's been a long and busy day so I'm writing to let you know that I will answer the questions you posted tomorrow morning (it's 9 p.m. here now).

Have a nice Sunday,
Cristina

Hi Vince,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

(laughing) No, there isn't an "I" (me/self). There never was. It's so peculiar...the whole thing is so peculiar (that's the word that appeared when reading the question about there ever being a self). The mind is dumbstruck in the face of this and can't say more than that.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

It's like a reflex, or inertia, or muscle memory. Even if they are different, all 3 can be used as good analogies here. They all seem to fit in how to describe the shifts between the experience of a self that keeps reappearing even after it was seen not to exist and experience with no self in it (not even as a thought) . The analogy of the car that's still moving even after the foot has been taken from the gas pedal (read it here somewhere) comes to mind. Not going to philosophize about theories that explain how the experience of self begins "when we are children...", etc, because, what's the point? All "I" know (it's seen), is that THIS (life, reality, this moment) takes different forms, even as an experience of a self, a person, that life happens to. That experience evaporates when a shift occurs and it usually happens when it is seen that this person is not real; that those are just thoughts. It's like a shift in perception, a shift in how reality is experienced (it's more like how experiencing happens). There are times when thoughts that contain: I, me, mine, are so close together and dense, when the inertia is bigger, that seeing through them does not happen fast. Then, pointers come to mind (in the form of thoughts), some from this dialogue (or even a thought that says "Stop!") that seem to slow down the intense flow of thoughts. After that,seeing that those are just thoughts happens spontaneously and this leads to the shift in perception mentioned earlier.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

What is felt, experienced, after seeing happens varies. There are moments that have fear in them , but immediately the words "it's just fear" come to mind and that usually leads to it lessening more and more (this expression sounds strange, don't know if it's correct; but you get the idea). An emptiness also arises sometimes; but it's a special kind of empty, one that has quietness in it somehow. Lightness also appears, one that brings like a breeze of air through reality. Well-being was felt and a sense of no struggles present anywhere. Many subtle variations of the written above (not only those); separate, together, one after another, blending in. But one thing disappeared since SEEing happened (actually since yesterday), and that was the often-present urge to search, the search for something (be it truth, or peace, or whatever). And the suffering and struggling that that search was usually accompanied by, they are not present here; they evaporated.
The differences between now and 9 days ago (when the dialogue began) are like the difference between heaven and earth (figure of speech) and in the same time it is seen that it's the same. It's like a new experience of reality has been "introduced" in the mix, the ISing took a new route. And it's not one that's like the others with just a little twist, no, it's something from a completly different order. But the main and obvious difference is that before there was an "I", somebody was home, and now it was seen that actually there wasn't; the home was empty from the beginning. Even though many times a day there still appears to be someone home, it is seen fairly quickly that it's all just "imagination" playing tricks on itself.
The last few days were filled with a colorful variation of thoughts and emotions, of moods and activities, but when it became clear that they all just happen, to no one, something shifted and from that moment on a tendency towards seeing this more and more often became the apparent priority of this ISing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Before this dialogue, there was a "me" who lives this life and who was looking for something. Even before coming here, different shifts happened, but they where rare and far between at the beginning and started to happen more and more often in the last months. This discussion was like the last straw, the final piece to the puzzle. Apparently an ok was needed, a vote of confidence that "I'm" in the right direction. And after that, it all fell into place. Almost everything that was read in your posts, made a click, made a shift. But the biggest one, was the:

Cristina, This IS IT !
But this is not accurate.
There is no IT. For there to be an IT there has to be a not IT. Is that possible ?
THISing, is more accurate.
..or even ISing.

Every word made it clearer and clearer. The mind stopped for a long time after this one. But after a few hours, the "old routine" of thoughts searching, analyzing, was in place again. The old dance was happening again. After the thoughts, and the thoughts about thoughts, that appeared were put on "paper" (posts send to you) "you" wrote (and it was not for the first time, but this one just clicked):

I'm not being dismissive here, but this is just old conditioning kicking in again.

After that sentence it was seen that those are just thoughts thought by no one and everything appears without a self that's creating anything (because it doesn't even exist).

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No, nothing like that. The most obvious thing that comes to mind is: because there is no "I". There is no one home to even ponder these dilemmas, about how things work, destiny, free will, draw an arbitrary imaginary line between "what "I" do/control and the unpredictability of life, etc. Examples from this experience (more than: what is is and it all just happens? hmmm)... none come to mind, sorry. It's like life is happening and that's that. Ok, from another perspective: THIS (reality, this moment) takes the form of thoughts and some hands typing these words, shifts in perspective (even this "new" one), this room, basically everything that happens now. A voice calls "Cristina", moving to the other room happens; thoughts about what to eat, an apple or an orange? A decision "is made": both.

6) Anything to add?

When thinking about what to write here, a smile appears on this face because it is seen what a flow it all had. Even though there was at the beginning a "secret" desire to get a nice, sweet, hold-my-hand and tell me how 'good' I'm doing type of guide (not that that's how things are done around here; now it's seen that, that would get in the way of the actual looking), Vince wrote back with his two lines that consisted of two questions. No "welcome!" (the one with excitement of course:)), no red carpet, no smiley faces and fresh baked cookies...none of that. And of course, it was perfect. It's like everything was custom-made for this conditioning to look (really look) and not waste any time getting tangled in all the soothing and pretty talk.
So, there has to be a "Thank you Vince!" at the end of this, because there has to:)