The Gate

Well, two things here.
Do you experience 'eyes' seeing? Also, when you say 'I see', do you literally mean 'Eyes see'?

I don’t experience my eyes seeing, I just believe that I do. I have thoughts that the eyes see, but from personal experience I just can say that seeing is happening.

I guess technically it's only a thought that says 'my brain interprets the electrochemical energy from the eyes', can't prove that...

Technically only a thought? Well that would indicate that there is actually a real 'I' that is doing the seeing.
Do you experience a brain seeing? Also, again, when you say 'I see', do you literally mean 'Brain sees'?

It is just a thought that the brain sees. From all that I can sense/observe seeing is happening.

Is 'Brain interprets the energy' an actual experience, or a thought about it?
And (if I may say so) rather simplistic. You need a functioning heart to pump blood around the brain, and oxygen present in the blood too, don't you? Otherwise it wouldn't work as you are describing it.
Do you experience any of these participating in 'seeing'?

No. All thoughts.

Or are all these just thoughts about what actually happens?

All just thoughts.

Do you experience a 'body seeing'? Or is there just 'seeing'.
Really have a close examination of your actual experience. What can you say about it?

All I can find are thoughts about seeing. There is a nagging resistance that wants to put forth the belief of how the body is supposed to operate, but within the parameters of discussion they are all just thoughts.

Well, I'm not trying to kid you here. Just ask to find this 'I'.
Did you manage to find anything exact you can 'put your finger on'? Or were there just thoughts?

Just thoughts. There is seeing happening but I don’t find an I.

I don’t experience my eyes seeing, I just believe that I do. I have thoughts that the eyes see, but from personal experience I just can say that seeing is happening.

Ok, 'eyes seeing' is not your actual experience.
'Eyes see' is a thought about what is happening.

It is just a thought that the brain sees. From all that I can sense/observe seeing is happening.

Ok, 'Brain sees' is a thought about what is happening.
'Seeing' is happening and right now, anything that we say about what is doing it is a thought.

All I can find are thoughts about seeing. There is a nagging resistance that wants to put forth the belief of how the body is supposed to operate, but within the parameters of discussion they are all just thoughts.

Note that we are not trying to negate or dismiss anything here. 'Brain functioning' and 'eyes used for vision' are perfectly acceptable thoughts (indeed, essential for anyone entering the medical profession).
The thing to realise is the difference between our actual experience, and what is a thought about our experience.

If you feel that 'parameters of discussion' are constricting, or present to you an altered view of being fair with this investigation, then please be open and let me know.
The only two factors I wish you to consider are looking for this 'I', and close examination of your actual experience to determine what it is (and know the difference between what is from thought, and what is from actual experience).

The mind can be a sneaky thing, and may attempt to justify thoughts with more thoughts - Something to be aware of.

Did you manage to find anything exact you can 'put your finger on'? Or were there just thoughts?
Just thoughts. There is seeing happening but I don’t find an I.

Ok, cool.

Feel free to let me know anything else that comes up, but for the moment let's leave that and move on to other functioning - Hearing. Exactly the same thing.

Listen for a moment to any sounds present.
Now examine your experience and determine what 'thing' is doing the hearing?
In other words, when you say 'I hear', what exactly is 'I'? The 'hearer'.
What can be found?

Xain ♥

Listen for a moment to any sounds present.
Now examine your experience and determine what 'thing' is doing the hearing?
In other words, when you say 'I hear', what exactly is 'I'? The 'hearer'.
What can be found?

Spent some time on our words on seeing and then moved to hearing...
There is no 'hearer', it is just happening.
The concept of Gerry hearing, seeing is persistent as a default way of explaining what is happening, but it doesn't hold up under investigation. Just a comfortable default, so the old seems to be breaking down but I don't have a grasp of what's next (but I am okay with that as long as I keep moving toward it).

N

ote that we are not trying to negate or dismiss anything here. 'Brain functioning' and 'eyes used for vision' are perfectly acceptable thoughts (indeed, essential for anyone entering the medical profession).
The thing to realise is the difference between our actual experience, and what is a thought about our experience.

This bit is helpful with understanding, it allows for seeing the 'acceptable thoughts' in their correct place; not negating or denying them.

If you feel that 'parameters of discussion' are constricting, or present to you an altered view of being fair with this investigation, then please be open and let me know.
The only two factors I wish you to consider are looking for this 'I', and close examination of your actual experience to determine what it is (and know the difference between what is from thought, and what is from actual experience).

The mind can be a sneaky thing, and may attempt to justify thoughts with more thoughts - Something to be aware of.

Parameters only in reference to the factors that are beneficial rather than the mental detours that I could easily be prone to, not in limitation or constricting. But it was also a little poke from the intellect, just seeing if it can take control of this and protect itself. I am very wary of my own mind after being lost in their for so long... need a breath of fresh air.

Parameters only in reference to the factors that are beneficial rather than the mental detours that I could easily be prone to, not in limitation or constricting. But it was also a little poke from the intellect, just seeing if it can take control of this and protect itself. I am very wary of my own mind after being lost in their for so long... need a breath of fresh air.

:-) You mention 'My mind' - This is what we shall investigate next.

There is no 'hearer', it is just happening.
The concept of Gerry hearing, seeing is persistent as a default way of explaining what is happening, but it doesn't hold up under investigation. Just a comfortable default, so the old seems to be breaking down but I don't have a grasp of what's next (but I am okay with that as long as I keep moving toward it).

Sounds good to me - I haven't a clue what is going to happen next either. :-)

Well, let's find out what's next.
Just before I go back to a few of things you wrote previously, I would like to take a look at 'thoughts', as this may assist you for the rest of our discussion.

Ok - Another little exercise.
Think a thought - Anything will do . . . I don't know . . . 'A Chinchilla called Englebert'
Ok - Thinking that thought?

Right, you're mission Jim, should you decide to accept it . . .

What created that thought?
Also, can you find a location for that thought? Where does the thought appear?

In common speaking we say 'I think', 'I had a thought', 'A thought appeared in my mind'.
Like we take ownership of thoughts that appear. Like we create them.
So, in your experience here and now can you determine what created that thought?
Pushing further . . . did 'you' create that thought? What is 'you' the thinker?

Can you choose what thoughts to have? (This would push further to 'I choose', what is 'I', the one that chooses?)
Do you know what thought is going to appear next?

Do you own 'a mind'? What is 'a mind'?
Is 'mind' anything more than a label for a string of thoughts?
Can you find a 'mind'? If there are no thoughts, then what is 'mind'?

Xain ♥

What created that thought?
Also, can you find a location for that thought? Where does the thought appear?

I can't find anything, by direct experience that created the thought, just thoughts about it. It just seems to happen.
I first felt that the thought was located in my head, but when it comes down to actually determining where the thought appears it can't be located, the awareness of it could be anywhere... I start to feel like the orienting factors (relative position thoughts?) are floating and the whole experience is not fixed in space... interesting. A little scary, disorienting, but in a fun way...

In common speaking we say 'I think', 'I had a thought', 'A thought appeared in my mind'.
Like we take ownership of thoughts that appear. Like we create them.
So, in your experience here and now can you determine what created that thought?
Pushing further . . . did 'you' create that thought? What is 'you' the thinker?

I spent some time with this one, the thoughts just seem to be there. Trying to initiate thinking about an orange produces the same result, I don't know where or what the origin is of any of these thoughts.

Can you choose what thoughts to have? (This would push further to 'I choose', what is 'I', the one that chooses?)
Do you know what thought is going to appear next?

Trying to initiate thinking about an orange produces the same result, I don't know where or what the origin is of any of these thoughts.
No, I don't know what thought will appear next. Where does it come from?

Do you own 'a mind'? What is 'a mind'?
Is 'mind' anything more than a label for a string of thoughts?
Can you find a 'mind'? If there are no thoughts, then what is 'mind'?

I see only thoughts, and thoughts about thoughts that are categorized as mind.

Website has been in/out for awhile, glad I saved my post in notepad...
Again, appreciate your guiding. Happy New Year.
Gerry

I can't find anything, by direct experience that created the thought, just thoughts about it. It just seems to happen.

Really excellent looking, Gerry. You're doing very well.
You have got a handle on this - I can tell. Truly examining what is happening, and what is a 'thought' about what is happening.

I first felt that the thought was located in my head, but when it comes down to actually determining where the thought appears it can't be located, the awareness of it could be anywhere... I start to feel like the orienting factors (relative position thoughts?) are floating and the whole experience is not fixed in space... interesting. A little scary, disorienting, but in a fun way...

I am glad you are having fun with it. It's a good way of approaching this.
It is often said that the 'head' region can appear to feature in the search for thoughts, as it is so typical for the phrase 'a thought appeared in my head', and 'my head aches through thinking' etc. We associate that area with the experience. As you find though, no location is found.

I spent some time with this one, the thoughts just seem to be there. Trying to initiate thinking about an orange produces the same result, I don't know where or what the origin is of any of these thoughts.

Excellent. Spend as much time as needed. Really nail it. It makes the realisation 'your own'.

I see only thoughts, and thoughts about thoughts that are categorized as mind.

Once again, great!

So thoughts appear. That is certain.
But when it is said 'I think', is there an 'I'?

There are thoughts, and thoughts about thoughts. Are they 'yours'?

Website has been in/out for awhile, glad I saved my post in notepad...
Again, appreciate your guiding. Happy New Year.

A wise move :-) It does 'time-out' after a while and can be frustrating if you lost a lot of text.
A Very Happy New Year to you also. You are very welcome.

Let us develop this to 'choice' and choosing - A potentially 'big one' for some people, as it covers the subject of free-will.

If it is said 'I have free-will' then that is a positive claim that there exists an 'I' that has free-will.
If it is said 'I do not free-will' then that is a positive claim that there exists an 'I' that does not free-will.
Both of these claims require an 'I'.
In our investigation, we are here to determine if this 'I' exists, and if so, what is it.
If there is no 'I', then there cannot be free-will as there is nothing to have it!

So . . . we touched on 'choosing thoughts' - But let's look at 'choice' directly.

Try this:
Choose your right or left hand.
Now raise it up in the air.

Now . . . what made that choice? What can you locate in your experience is the 'thing' that did the choosing?
In other words, if you were to say 'I chose', or 'I am choosing' then what is 'I'?

Is a choice actually being made? If so, try to determine how and what is doing it.

Xain ♥

So thoughts appear. That is certain.
But when it is said 'I think', is there an 'I'?
There are thoughts, and thoughts about thoughts. Are they 'yours'?

The questions are both about ownership of the thoughts. Are they mine? When I started trying to locate the thoughts or find their position and could not it caused some disorientation and part of that was feeling that things are not as I assumed them to be, with a vague feeling of loss of ownership.

The feeling about what is beyond the 'I' is that there is no language in that 'place' and no reference point for anything... like a void but with something there, a presence. This is where I start to fight for keeping the 'I', because there is a fear of not existing if I let go of this self. Fear of death.

The other prevailing feeling is one of returning to a natural state, like instinctively migrating to a place that I know only from a dream. More of a gentle motivation to continue with this process.

Now . . . what made that choice? What can you locate in your experience is the 'thing' that did the choosing?
In other words, if you were to say 'I chose', or 'I am choosing' then what is 'I'?
Is a choice actually being made? If so, try to determine how and what is doing it.

There are thoughts: about reading the words raise your left or right hand and then the question... raise the hand...thoughts inquiring into the process. All thoughts. Is there is something before the thoughts? That would be what I can't see, whatever generates the thoughts. The thoughts seem related to the 'I' because its a choice of something happening to this body - raising the hand.

By direct experience choosing is happening... could easily get into a thought loop on this because it seems to all arise in thought and I am evaluating it with thought.

But from direct experience it is just happening, I can't determine how/what is doing the choosing.

If the sensing/choosing phenomenon is happening and there is an awareness of it happening, is this not the 'I'. If this 'I' is 'not' then wouldn't it also follow that therre would not be an awareness of it or there could be any number of things to be aware of. Why does this awareness exist with this seeing/doing/thinking going on?

The questions are both about ownership of the thoughts. Are they mine? When I started trying to locate the thoughts or find their position and could not it caused some disorientation and part of that was feeling that things are not as I assumed them to be, with a vague feeling of loss of ownership.

Interesting. That would sort-of imply that there is an owner that could lose them?
Is there? Has there ever been an owner that could lose them?

This is where I start to fight for keeping the 'I', because there is a fear of not existing if I let go of this self. Fear of death.

Fear can often appear when we start looking at these things. It is a protection mechanism, protecting 'us' from what we believe could harm us. But what 'I' can be harmed?

You say 'let go of this self'
Is there a self, an 'I' to let go of?
Is there a self that could let go of a self?
Rather than 'disappearing' or 'loss', has there ever been an 'I'?

But from direct experience it is just happening, I can't determine how/what is doing the choosing.

It just 'happened'? No 'I' can be determined.

Let's push even further.
What 'I' chooses when the heart beats?
What 'I' chooses when to blink the eye-lids?

Breathing is an interesting one, as it would appear to be either automatic (throughout the day) or controlled, when we think about doing it. <- When we THINK about doing it.
But when we THINK about doing it, that's just a thought isn't it?

Could it be that everything is completely automatic - That there is no 'I' choosing anything EVER?

If the sensing/choosing phenomenon is happening and there is an awareness of it happening, is this not the 'I'. If this 'I' is 'not' then wouldn't it also follow that therre would not be an awareness of it or there could be any number of things to be aware of. Why does this awareness exist with this seeing/doing/thinking going on?

You are on the right track. Something clearly exists. All we can hope for here is to determine if there is a separate 'thing' ('I'/'me') responsible.

Thought/mind can only references 'stuff', objects, concepts, 'things'. What we are pointing to is not a 'thing', not a separate 'object'.
All we can determine is if there is a 'thing' doing stuff, or if there isn't. Beyond that, the mind/thought/words cannot go there. (This is a little beyond the scope of our discussion, but I hope it may be useful to you).

I have always been searching for something that I couldn't describe.
I don't feel like words work for this...

. . . . . ♥

So at this point, let me go back to some important things you brought up right at the start. Things that were troubling. Let's see if we can make some headway into them now.

Mostly the questions were along the lines of: Why can't I? be happy, do this or that. or What is wrong with me and how do I fix it?

If happy thoughts appear, or bad thoughts appear, what 'I' can choose to have or not to have them appear?

What is this 'I' that has things wrong with it? That needs fixing?
A real one? Or a thought that is believed in?

What 'I' would do the fixing'? Can you find that one right now?
Or just a thought?

Choice . . .
Did 'you' choose to start this conversation with me? Or did it just 'happen'?

Doing . . .
What 'I' is going to write a reply to me . . . or will it just 'happen'?

Is there ever a real 'I' - EVER . . . or are there just thoughts . . . ?

Xain ♥

Interesting. That would sort-of imply that there is an owner that could lose them?
Is there? Has there ever been an owner that could lose them?

No, there isn't an owner that I can locate. I think there is a feeling of loss for losing the owner, the 'I' (felt by the I that isn’t there…). If there is not an 'I' then what is there?

You say 'let go of this self'
Is there a self, an 'I' to let go of?
Is there a self that could let go of a self?
Rather than 'disappearing' or 'loss', has there ever been an 'I'?

… there is just a thought happening about a self…and it has always been the same.

What 'I' chooses when the heart beats?
What 'I' chooses when to blink the eye-lids?
Breathing is an interesting one, as it would appear to be either automatic (throughout the day) or controlled, when we think about doing it. <- When we THINK about doing it.
But when we THINK about doing it, that's just a thought isn't it?
Could it be that everything is completely automatic - That there is no 'I' choosing anything EVER?

There is no direct experience of anything choosing or initiating heartbeats, breathing…

You are on the right track. Something clearly exists. All we can hope for here is to determine if there is a separate 'thing' ('I'/'me') responsible.

Thought/mind can only references 'stuff', objects, concepts, 'things'. What we are pointing to is not a 'thing', not a separate 'object'.
All we can determine is if there is a 'thing' doing stuff, or if there isn't. Beyond that, the mind/thought/words cannot go there. (This is a little beyond the scope of our discussion, but I hope it may be useful to you).

Yes

If happy thoughts appear, or bad thoughts appear, what 'I' can choose to have or not to have them appear?
What is this 'I' that has things wrong with it? That needs fixing?
A real one? Or a thought that is believed in?
What 'I' would do the fixing'? Can you find that one right now?
Or just a thought?

all just thought

Choice . . .
Did 'you' choose to start this conversation with me? Or did it just 'happen'?
Doing . . .
What 'I' is going to write a reply to me . . . or will it just 'happen'?
Is there ever a real 'I' - EVER . . . or are there just thoughts . . . ?

Choosing/Doing are just happening. There seems to be awareness/observation of this happening. What is that awareness/observation? Seeing (and other senses)/thinking/feeling are happening and it just happens…

Question: if there is no ’I’ then why is the observation/awareness of these thoughts or phenomenon happening?

Choosing/Doing are just happening. There seems to be awareness/observation of this happening. What is that awareness/observation? Seeing (and other senses)/thinking/feeling are happening and it just happens…

Yes . . . it just happens.
There is awareness of it.
Thought separates 'seeing' into 'seeing separate individual objects'.
Thought then assumes that what is doing the seeing is also a separate object, 'I'.
I'm offering this as a suggestion - Does this seem likely?

Question: if there is no ’I’ then why is the observation/awareness of these thoughts or phenomenon happening?

Your question is beyond our scope here, and beyond my capability of offering any possible answer.
There is awareness. Do you experience anything beyond that?

Is an answer necessary?
What would it change? Who (what 'I') wants to know?
Who (what 'I') would it make a difference to?

All I can ask is there a separate 'thing' doing the observation? Is 'awareness' owned by a separate 'thing'.
'I am aware' <- Any truth to that? Or just a thought?

Is there a separate 'I' here right now?

Xain ♥

Yes . . . it just happens.
There is awareness of it.
Thought separates 'seeing' into 'seeing separate individual objects'.
Thought then assumes that what is doing the seeing is also a separate object, 'I'.
I'm offering this as a suggestion - Does this seem likely?

Your question is beyond our scope here, and beyond my capability of offering any possible answer.
There is awareness. Do you experience anything beyond that?
Is an answer necessary?
What would it change? Who (what 'I') wants to know?
Who (what 'I') would it make a difference to?

(Trying to make if fit into thoughts probably. Part of me needs to control this process like everything else.)

All I can ask is there a separate 'thing' doing the observation? Is 'awareness' owned by a separate 'thing'.
'I am aware' <- Any truth to that? Or just a thought?
Is there a separate 'I' here right now?

There is awareness. Awareness is.

Trying to make if fit into thoughts probably. Part of me needs to control this process like everything else.)

Mind demands an answer.
Can it really be that simple?

Is there a seperate 'you' that has any control over anything?
Is there a separate 'you' at all?

Xain ♥

Mind demands an answer.
Can it really be that simple?

Is there a seperate 'you' that has any control over anything?
Is there a separate 'you' at all?

There is no separate 'I/me', no choice/control. All of this is just happening, just experience.

Crazy eh? :-)

Notice that all communication is separation and 'mind'.
Two sides are assumed. 'I' am chatting with 'you'.
However, when deeply looked into, there is the realisation that it is all just thought.

Do you have any questions? Anything you'd like to take a look at?
How are things right now?

Xain ♥

Notice that all communication is separation and 'mind'.
Two sides are assumed. 'I' am chatting with 'you'.
However, when deeply looked into, there is the realisation that it is all just thought.

It has always been thought(s) arising, life happening. It's just there, being.

Do you have any questions? Anything you'd like to take a look at?
How are things right now?

I went back to reading the statement about looking at the fear, seeing what it is, what's 'behind' it. Being (just being) is enough. I don't feel the resistance or sense of loss. Just a 'non-feeling' that doesn't feel empty, no void, just being. Experience is happening and the 'I' comes up and questions, but beyond all of that is 'just this'.