Dear Nettie,
this morning when I woke up, there was looking, there were thoughts and there were objects appearing and disappearing, but the attention was more with the looking. I also saw more clearly that the looking is always there, always effortless, while before I was not really looking, because there was effort involved.
“Thoughts are neither real nor un-real. They are about real things like tables... Or imaginary things like unicorns or ghosts... or lines we pretend are on the earth like the equator.”
Yes, I think with “real”, I meant that I give a lot of value to them vs. just looking at them.
“Is there a controller? Look.
Simply look.”
When I read the above two lines, the following thoughts arise: when it is the effortless looking that always is then there is no need to raise the question “Is there a controller” because there is always looking, but when there is always looking, I would not look for a controller, but just look at whatever arises. When I ask the question “Is there a controller?” it seems that the looking takes place on a thought level, i.e. I try to solve it with thinking, but that is not the looking that we talk here, right? The looking is even going on when the thoughts arise, too, but then I think it is merely an intellectual understanding. There is some confusion here. Do you know what I mean? When I think about it intellectually, I “believe” that there is no controller, but that does not have to do anything with looking. What I can see though is a shift of attention going more to the looking, which brings light to some “knots”.
“Yes it is not possible for a separate you to stand outside this indivisible timeless flow and change it or re-arrange it in any way.
See if it is like that or not.”
Yes, it is not possible to step outside the timeless flow. Everything is appearing in it, but nothing “touches” it. Any effort to change it would just be another thought appearing in it, which would come and go, and may come and go, for which there is no controller anyway.
“Notice how a feeling of lightness or a feeling of heaviness both arise spontaneously without you having to do anything. They are both equally simultaneously recognized ...again without any effort. And the objectifying mind naturally labels them as light or heavy or good or bad or anything at all. And all simply occurring naturally without effort.
Even the feeling of effort arises without effort.”
That pointer helped today to bring some light to that area. There is are still thoughts coming up that say that light is better than heavy, but seeing that they all just appear and disappear in the effortless space, is beautiful. And there is also the thought arising sometimes that if there is heaviness, I need to change that, which implies that I was the controller. They seem to be subtle thoughts, but more and more I can see that all of that are just thoughts as well.
I keep looking, which does not require any effort.
Much love,
Ben
Nettie is available if you want a guide
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Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Ben,
"because there was effort involved. "
Notice that the feeling of effort arises spontaneously without you having to do anything...and is simultaneously recognized ...again without effort...
And the objectifying mind naturally labels it effort and perhaps judges it as good or bad... Etc. all without you doing a thing.
Notice how there is no you who can stand outside of this seamless timeless unitary flow and change or re-arrange the current perception.
"Yes, I think with “real”, I meant that I give a lot of value to them vs. just looking at them. "
Thoughts about things real like a hot stove may have value to the survival of the body. Thoughts telling you you are a separate individual may be painful if believed.
“Is there a controller? Look.
Simply look.”
"When I read the above two lines, the following thoughts arise: when it is the effortless looking that always is then there is no need to raise the question “Is there a controller” because there is always looking, but when there is always looking, I would not look for a controller, but just look at whatever arises. When I ask the question “Is there a controller?” it seems that the looking takes place on a thought level, i.e. I try to solve it with thinking, but that is not the looking that we talk here, right? The looking is even going on when the thoughts arise, too, but then I think it is merely an intellectual understanding. There is some confusion here. Do you know what I mean? When I think about it intellectually, I “believe” that there is no controller, but that does not have to do anything with looking. What I can see though is a shift of attention going more to the looking, which brings light to some “knots”.
Keep looking. If you were in control you would choose for more than an intellectual understanding, wouldn't you?
“Yes it is not possible for a separate you to stand outside this indivisible timeless flow and change it or re-arrange it in any way.
See if it is like that or not.”
"Yes, it is not possible to step outside the timeless flow. Everything is appearing in it, but nothing “touches” it. Any effort to change it would just be another thought appearing in it, which would come and go, and may come and go, for which there is no controller anyway."
Yes!
“Notice how a feeling of lightness or a feeling of heaviness both arise spontaneously without you having to do anything. They are both equally simultaneously recognized ...again without any effort. And the objectifying mind naturally labels them as light or heavy or good or bad or anything at all. And all simply occurring naturally without effort.
Even the feeling of effort arises without effort.”
"That pointer helped today to bring some light to that area. There is are still thoughts coming up that say that light is better than heavy, but seeing that they all just appear and disappear in the effortless space, is beautiful. And there is also the thought arising sometimes that if there is heaviness, I need to change that, which implies that I was the controller. They seem to be subtle thoughts, but more and more I can see that all of that are just thoughts as well. "
Yes!
If you were the controller you could feel any way you wanted!
Love,
Nettie
"because there was effort involved. "
Notice that the feeling of effort arises spontaneously without you having to do anything...and is simultaneously recognized ...again without effort...
And the objectifying mind naturally labels it effort and perhaps judges it as good or bad... Etc. all without you doing a thing.
Notice how there is no you who can stand outside of this seamless timeless unitary flow and change or re-arrange the current perception.
"Yes, I think with “real”, I meant that I give a lot of value to them vs. just looking at them. "
Thoughts about things real like a hot stove may have value to the survival of the body. Thoughts telling you you are a separate individual may be painful if believed.
“Is there a controller? Look.
Simply look.”
"When I read the above two lines, the following thoughts arise: when it is the effortless looking that always is then there is no need to raise the question “Is there a controller” because there is always looking, but when there is always looking, I would not look for a controller, but just look at whatever arises. When I ask the question “Is there a controller?” it seems that the looking takes place on a thought level, i.e. I try to solve it with thinking, but that is not the looking that we talk here, right? The looking is even going on when the thoughts arise, too, but then I think it is merely an intellectual understanding. There is some confusion here. Do you know what I mean? When I think about it intellectually, I “believe” that there is no controller, but that does not have to do anything with looking. What I can see though is a shift of attention going more to the looking, which brings light to some “knots”.
Keep looking. If you were in control you would choose for more than an intellectual understanding, wouldn't you?
“Yes it is not possible for a separate you to stand outside this indivisible timeless flow and change it or re-arrange it in any way.
See if it is like that or not.”
"Yes, it is not possible to step outside the timeless flow. Everything is appearing in it, but nothing “touches” it. Any effort to change it would just be another thought appearing in it, which would come and go, and may come and go, for which there is no controller anyway."
Yes!
“Notice how a feeling of lightness or a feeling of heaviness both arise spontaneously without you having to do anything. They are both equally simultaneously recognized ...again without any effort. And the objectifying mind naturally labels them as light or heavy or good or bad or anything at all. And all simply occurring naturally without effort.
Even the feeling of effort arises without effort.”
"That pointer helped today to bring some light to that area. There is are still thoughts coming up that say that light is better than heavy, but seeing that they all just appear and disappear in the effortless space, is beautiful. And there is also the thought arising sometimes that if there is heaviness, I need to change that, which implies that I was the controller. They seem to be subtle thoughts, but more and more I can see that all of that are just thoughts as well. "
Yes!
If you were the controller you could feel any way you wanted!
Love,
Nettie
-
Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Just to let you know that the looking is becoming "clearer" (even though saying it like does not really reflect how it really is) and i will report later on tonight.
Much joy
Much joy
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
I love you
-
Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Nettie,
As mentioned, today there were a few moments, in which the looking seemed to be very clear, there was a seeing that any action, any object was just happening, that it felt in a way ridiculous to think that we can control anything. Many times, the mind was labeling those things and the attention went away from the looking, but it came back. Now afterwards, I can see that as well, but I guess that is also just thoughts coming up again. There seems to be a need to catch those clear moments with thoughts and label them and looking seemingly stops, but yes, just seemingly. Again, there was just happening and no doer. There seemed to be a space and thoughts came to capture the moment, and at that moment it was not seen, although I can understand that it is not possible not to look, because it is always going on.
“Notice that the feeling of effort arises spontaneously without you having to do anything...and is simultaneously recognized ...again without effort...
And the objectifying mind naturally labels it effort and perhaps judges it as good or bad... Etc. all without you doing a thing.
Notice how there is no you who can stand outside of this seamless timeless unitary flow and change or re-arrange the current perception.”\
The “without you having to do anything” is a helpful pointer. The no effort is a helpful pointer. Life just happens “even” if there is nobody controlling things.
Thoughts about things real like a hot stove may have value to the survival of the body. Thoughts telling you you are a separate individual may be painful if believed.
“Here the question comes up when the space cannot be touched or altered, who would be in pain? Anyway, just sharing all the thoughts without filter. And the looking continues.
“Keep looking. If you were in control you would choose for more than an intellectual understanding, wouldn't you?”
Yes, if there was any controller, it would at least be able to think the thoughts it desired or the feelings it desired. There is some glue that seems to be attached to the thoughts that make it feel something separate, but the beauty is in seeing everything. The looking seems to be pure when it is seen that the body and mind are not the doer.
“If you were the controller you could feel any way you wanted!” Yes, but that’s not the case. The “afterthought” seems to bring an outside entity to life, but that’s not possible, as I have experienced today.
I will continue to look, simply look. “Continue” looking no matter what happens, because what happens does not matter in a way, because “I” have no control of it. Anyway, there is a feeling and thoughts coming up that the looking is seen more clearly, it brings in more light in a way, although it is always there, it cannot go away.
Much love,
Ben
As mentioned, today there were a few moments, in which the looking seemed to be very clear, there was a seeing that any action, any object was just happening, that it felt in a way ridiculous to think that we can control anything. Many times, the mind was labeling those things and the attention went away from the looking, but it came back. Now afterwards, I can see that as well, but I guess that is also just thoughts coming up again. There seems to be a need to catch those clear moments with thoughts and label them and looking seemingly stops, but yes, just seemingly. Again, there was just happening and no doer. There seemed to be a space and thoughts came to capture the moment, and at that moment it was not seen, although I can understand that it is not possible not to look, because it is always going on.
“Notice that the feeling of effort arises spontaneously without you having to do anything...and is simultaneously recognized ...again without effort...
And the objectifying mind naturally labels it effort and perhaps judges it as good or bad... Etc. all without you doing a thing.
Notice how there is no you who can stand outside of this seamless timeless unitary flow and change or re-arrange the current perception.”\
The “without you having to do anything” is a helpful pointer. The no effort is a helpful pointer. Life just happens “even” if there is nobody controlling things.
Thoughts about things real like a hot stove may have value to the survival of the body. Thoughts telling you you are a separate individual may be painful if believed.
“Here the question comes up when the space cannot be touched or altered, who would be in pain? Anyway, just sharing all the thoughts without filter. And the looking continues.
“Keep looking. If you were in control you would choose for more than an intellectual understanding, wouldn't you?”
Yes, if there was any controller, it would at least be able to think the thoughts it desired or the feelings it desired. There is some glue that seems to be attached to the thoughts that make it feel something separate, but the beauty is in seeing everything. The looking seems to be pure when it is seen that the body and mind are not the doer.
“If you were the controller you could feel any way you wanted!” Yes, but that’s not the case. The “afterthought” seems to bring an outside entity to life, but that’s not possible, as I have experienced today.
I will continue to look, simply look. “Continue” looking no matter what happens, because what happens does not matter in a way, because “I” have no control of it. Anyway, there is a feeling and thoughts coming up that the looking is seen more clearly, it brings in more light in a way, although it is always there, it cannot go away.
Much love,
Ben
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Ben,
"As mentioned, today there were a few moments, in which the looking seemed to be very clear, there was a seeing that any action, any object was just happening, that it felt in a way ridiculous to think that we can control anything. Many times, the mind was labeling those things and the attention went away from the looking, but it came back. Now afterwards, I can see that as well, but I guess that is also just thoughts coming up again."
The mind labels. That is its job.
The labels are part of the flow. If it is seen when looked for, wouldn't it have to be the case all the time?
" There seems to be a need to catch those clear moments with thoughts and label them and looking seemingly stops, but yes, just seemingly. "
Notice that the feeling of need to catch a moment arises spontaneously without you having to do a thing.
Bring a moment out here and sit it on the table.
How long is a moment?
What is a moment?
"Here" is always a the location of an imaginary character. ....."Now" is an attempt to freeze frame the flowing momentary.
"Again, there was just happening and no doer. There seemed to be a space and thoughts came to capture the moment, and at that moment it was not seen, although I can understand that it is not possible not to look, because it is always going on. "
Yes!
“Life just happens “even” if there is nobody controlling things."
Yes!
"And the looking continues. "
One good look. Is there a separate self? A controller a thinker a do-er...
Or is life simply happening and the objectifying mind labels and describes it?
"Yes, if there was any controller, it would at least be able to think the thoughts it desired or the feelings it desired." There is some glue that seems to be attached to the thoughts that make it feel something separate, but the beauty is in seeing everything. The looking seems to be pure when it is seen that the body and mind are not the doer. "
Is there a do-er?
One good look. Right now.
“If you were the controller you could feel any way you wanted!” Yes, but that’s not the case. The “afterthought” seems to bring an outside entity to life, but that’s not possible, as I have experienced today. "
The afterthought happens without you doing anything.
"I will continue to look, simply look. “Continue” looking no matter what happens, because what happens does not matter in a way, because “I” have no control of it."
So there is no controller?
What are you referring to when you say "I"? Does it have shape color smell. Any qualities and characteristics of any kind?
Is there anything permanent or fixed or stable? Or is it an unstoppable uncatchable seamless timeless unitary flow?
Love,
Nettie
"As mentioned, today there were a few moments, in which the looking seemed to be very clear, there was a seeing that any action, any object was just happening, that it felt in a way ridiculous to think that we can control anything. Many times, the mind was labeling those things and the attention went away from the looking, but it came back. Now afterwards, I can see that as well, but I guess that is also just thoughts coming up again."
The mind labels. That is its job.
The labels are part of the flow. If it is seen when looked for, wouldn't it have to be the case all the time?
" There seems to be a need to catch those clear moments with thoughts and label them and looking seemingly stops, but yes, just seemingly. "
Notice that the feeling of need to catch a moment arises spontaneously without you having to do a thing.
Bring a moment out here and sit it on the table.
How long is a moment?
What is a moment?
"Here" is always a the location of an imaginary character. ....."Now" is an attempt to freeze frame the flowing momentary.
"Again, there was just happening and no doer. There seemed to be a space and thoughts came to capture the moment, and at that moment it was not seen, although I can understand that it is not possible not to look, because it is always going on. "
Yes!
“Life just happens “even” if there is nobody controlling things."
Yes!
"And the looking continues. "
One good look. Is there a separate self? A controller a thinker a do-er...
Or is life simply happening and the objectifying mind labels and describes it?
"Yes, if there was any controller, it would at least be able to think the thoughts it desired or the feelings it desired." There is some glue that seems to be attached to the thoughts that make it feel something separate, but the beauty is in seeing everything. The looking seems to be pure when it is seen that the body and mind are not the doer. "
Is there a do-er?
One good look. Right now.
“If you were the controller you could feel any way you wanted!” Yes, but that’s not the case. The “afterthought” seems to bring an outside entity to life, but that’s not possible, as I have experienced today. "
The afterthought happens without you doing anything.
"I will continue to look, simply look. “Continue” looking no matter what happens, because what happens does not matter in a way, because “I” have no control of it."
So there is no controller?
What are you referring to when you say "I"? Does it have shape color smell. Any qualities and characteristics of any kind?
Is there anything permanent or fixed or stable? Or is it an unstoppable uncatchable seamless timeless unitary flow?
Love,
Nettie
-
Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Nettie,
"The mind labels. That is its job."
Yes, there is something that sees that as well. The noticing is always going on. The looking has helped to see that the thoughts are just appearing. There was a past belief that if the mind labels, there is no looking, but of course, even that is seen and noticed.
"Notice that the feeling of need to catch a moment arises spontaneously without you having to do a thing."
Yes, i don't have to do anything, or rather i cannot do anything. Things are just arising. Whether those are thoughts, bodies or feelings.
"Bring a moment out here and sit it on the table.
How long is a moment?
What is a moment?
"Here" is always a the location of an imaginary character. ....."Now" is an attempt to freeze frame the flowing momentary."
A moment cannot be tracked down in time. A moment cannot really be defined because there is only the ongoing stream of life, everything happening in this space and this space noticing everything effortlessly. A moment only seems to exist as a thought, the mind trying to catch a piece of the flow of life.
"One good look."
I have been struggling with the looking today in a way. I was trying to "reproduce" the clear looking from yesterday. It felt a bit forceful the looking. But there was still looking going on of course.
"Is there a separate self? A controller a thinker a do-er...
Or is life simply happening and the objectifying mind labels and describes it?"
There is no thinker, there are only thoughts. They just appear and disappear without anyone thinking them. There is also no doer. The body just works. The breathing, the actions of the fingers typing, talking, etc. There is all the doing going one without something being there doing it. Life is also happening without controller. Everything is just happening. A separate felf? I even forgot in a way what that is. If there id no controller, thnker or doer, there is no space for a self.
"The afterthought happens without you doing anything."
Yes, there is the ongoing noticing of everything whether those are thoughts, feelings or any other objects appearing and disappearing.
"So there is no controller?
What are you referring to when you say "I"? Does it have shape color smell. Any qualities and characteristics of any kind?"
There is no controller. Things are just happening including the body, thoughts and feelings. The labeling is also happening. The "I" is a label for this body. It feels like it is a pointer such as the line of the equator, which does not really exist. It does not have a shape, color or smell. It cannot be noticed the same way as a table, but is only a label. It only has the characteristics or qualities that we give to it with other thoughts.
"Is there anything permanent or fixed or stable? Or is it an unstoppable uncatchable seamless timeless unitary flow?"
There is an unstoppable, uncatchable seamless flow. There is nothing fixed or stable. I could say that the noticing is permanent, always on without any effort.
Overall, the looking feels very fresh and shows more and more that there is no separate entity. However, sometimes, i am not sure how much of my answers are written by pure looking and how much by intellectual understanding. For sure there is a fresh looking going on, but also intellectual understanding.
Much Love,
Ben
"The mind labels. That is its job."
Yes, there is something that sees that as well. The noticing is always going on. The looking has helped to see that the thoughts are just appearing. There was a past belief that if the mind labels, there is no looking, but of course, even that is seen and noticed.
"Notice that the feeling of need to catch a moment arises spontaneously without you having to do a thing."
Yes, i don't have to do anything, or rather i cannot do anything. Things are just arising. Whether those are thoughts, bodies or feelings.
"Bring a moment out here and sit it on the table.
How long is a moment?
What is a moment?
"Here" is always a the location of an imaginary character. ....."Now" is an attempt to freeze frame the flowing momentary."
A moment cannot be tracked down in time. A moment cannot really be defined because there is only the ongoing stream of life, everything happening in this space and this space noticing everything effortlessly. A moment only seems to exist as a thought, the mind trying to catch a piece of the flow of life.
"One good look."
I have been struggling with the looking today in a way. I was trying to "reproduce" the clear looking from yesterday. It felt a bit forceful the looking. But there was still looking going on of course.
"Is there a separate self? A controller a thinker a do-er...
Or is life simply happening and the objectifying mind labels and describes it?"
There is no thinker, there are only thoughts. They just appear and disappear without anyone thinking them. There is also no doer. The body just works. The breathing, the actions of the fingers typing, talking, etc. There is all the doing going one without something being there doing it. Life is also happening without controller. Everything is just happening. A separate felf? I even forgot in a way what that is. If there id no controller, thnker or doer, there is no space for a self.
"The afterthought happens without you doing anything."
Yes, there is the ongoing noticing of everything whether those are thoughts, feelings or any other objects appearing and disappearing.
"So there is no controller?
What are you referring to when you say "I"? Does it have shape color smell. Any qualities and characteristics of any kind?"
There is no controller. Things are just happening including the body, thoughts and feelings. The labeling is also happening. The "I" is a label for this body. It feels like it is a pointer such as the line of the equator, which does not really exist. It does not have a shape, color or smell. It cannot be noticed the same way as a table, but is only a label. It only has the characteristics or qualities that we give to it with other thoughts.
"Is there anything permanent or fixed or stable? Or is it an unstoppable uncatchable seamless timeless unitary flow?"
There is an unstoppable, uncatchable seamless flow. There is nothing fixed or stable. I could say that the noticing is permanent, always on without any effort.
Overall, the looking feels very fresh and shows more and more that there is no separate entity. However, sometimes, i am not sure how much of my answers are written by pure looking and how much by intellectual understanding. For sure there is a fresh looking going on, but also intellectual understanding.
Much Love,
Ben
-
Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Nettie,
This is to report from the looking today. There were two things i have noticed more prominently:
1. in the looking, sometimes, i have noticed how there are thoughts coming up trying to change something, which is a conditioning. There was also a looking at that. The looking again seems to be more intensive in a way and the self seems to get less signifcance. When i look there is no self, but there seems to be something like that in some conditionings coming up. But i am convinced that there is none and no controller.
2. i have seen how i "judge" this body and mind whether i have achieved something or not, i.e. A striving to get somehwere. Intelellectually i know that is non-sense now, but i have seen that pattern going on by looking. I can also observe that and see that that is non-sense, because there is no control of that.
With love,
Ben
This is to report from the looking today. There were two things i have noticed more prominently:
1. in the looking, sometimes, i have noticed how there are thoughts coming up trying to change something, which is a conditioning. There was also a looking at that. The looking again seems to be more intensive in a way and the self seems to get less signifcance. When i look there is no self, but there seems to be something like that in some conditionings coming up. But i am convinced that there is none and no controller.
2. i have seen how i "judge" this body and mind whether i have achieved something or not, i.e. A striving to get somehwere. Intelellectually i know that is non-sense now, but i have seen that pattern going on by looking. I can also observe that and see that that is non-sense, because there is no control of that.
With love,
Ben
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Ben,
"1. in the looking, sometimes, i have noticed how there are thoughts coming up trying to change something, which is a conditioning."
Conditioning is a label also that arises naturally. Isn't it life simply happening? Why believe the label?
". The looking again seems to be more intensive in a way and the self seems to get less significance."
Self is either real or not. Like a table. Look.
Can you find something stable...
Or fixed?
"When i look there is no self, but there seems to be something like that in some conditionings coming up. But i am convinced that there is none and no controller. "
Nice.
So the sense of self arises. Uncontrollably.
"2. i have seen how i "judge" this body and mind whether i have achieved something or not, i.e. A striving to get somehwere. Intelellectually i know that is non-sense now, but i have seen that pattern going on by looking. I can also observe that and see that that is non-sense, because there is no control of that."
Nice.
Is there anything permanent or fixed?
Does it feel like you are an observer?
Love,
Nettie
"1. in the looking, sometimes, i have noticed how there are thoughts coming up trying to change something, which is a conditioning."
Conditioning is a label also that arises naturally. Isn't it life simply happening? Why believe the label?
". The looking again seems to be more intensive in a way and the self seems to get less significance."
Self is either real or not. Like a table. Look.
Can you find something stable...
Or fixed?
"When i look there is no self, but there seems to be something like that in some conditionings coming up. But i am convinced that there is none and no controller. "
Nice.
So the sense of self arises. Uncontrollably.
"2. i have seen how i "judge" this body and mind whether i have achieved something or not, i.e. A striving to get somehwere. Intelellectually i know that is non-sense now, but i have seen that pattern going on by looking. I can also observe that and see that that is non-sense, because there is no control of that."
Nice.
Is there anything permanent or fixed?
Does it feel like you are an observer?
Love,
Nettie
-
Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Nettie,
“Conditioning is a label also that arises naturally. Isn't it life simply happening? Why believe the label?”
I have been looking at the label today and seen that it is just a pointer, just a label without a depth a truth behind it. When I read and look at “Why believe the label?”, I wonder “who” or “what” believes it. I can see that there is no self, or self is just a label, but I do not see how a label can be believed if there is no entity there to do so.
". The looking again seems to be more intensive in a way and the self seems to get less significance."
“Self is either real or not. Like a table. Look.
Can you find something stable...
Or fixed?”
I guess what I was confusing here was the self and the conditioning. When I look for the self, there is nothing, it is just a thought, a label. But what seems to have less significance is the thoughts about the I or the story of a person, which is not in my control anyway, but it has been noticed.
There is nothing stable about the self. The self is a label. When I look, there is only one “thing” that is stable, always on, which is the ongoing noticing of everything appearing, some sort of feeling awakeness. It seems like that there was a confusion that the self is that awareness claiming it for its own in a way, but that self only appears in that noticing.
“Nice.
So the sense of self arises. Uncontrollably.”
Yes, it does. Without me doing anything. the more talking and interaction there is with others, the more the self seem to appear.
“Is there anything permanent or fixed?”
The only “thing” permanent that there is is the noticing, which is always on, but there is nothing fixed about it. Nothing touches it, it cannot be located or grasped.
“Does it feel like you are an observer?”
Hmm… there is observing, but not someone observing or not an energy that can be tracked down that it is observed from here or there. But in a way, the observing feels very familiar, more so than a thought or a feeling. It is effortless.
Love,
Ben
“Conditioning is a label also that arises naturally. Isn't it life simply happening? Why believe the label?”
I have been looking at the label today and seen that it is just a pointer, just a label without a depth a truth behind it. When I read and look at “Why believe the label?”, I wonder “who” or “what” believes it. I can see that there is no self, or self is just a label, but I do not see how a label can be believed if there is no entity there to do so.
". The looking again seems to be more intensive in a way and the self seems to get less significance."
“Self is either real or not. Like a table. Look.
Can you find something stable...
Or fixed?”
I guess what I was confusing here was the self and the conditioning. When I look for the self, there is nothing, it is just a thought, a label. But what seems to have less significance is the thoughts about the I or the story of a person, which is not in my control anyway, but it has been noticed.
There is nothing stable about the self. The self is a label. When I look, there is only one “thing” that is stable, always on, which is the ongoing noticing of everything appearing, some sort of feeling awakeness. It seems like that there was a confusion that the self is that awareness claiming it for its own in a way, but that self only appears in that noticing.
“Nice.
So the sense of self arises. Uncontrollably.”
Yes, it does. Without me doing anything. the more talking and interaction there is with others, the more the self seem to appear.
“Is there anything permanent or fixed?”
The only “thing” permanent that there is is the noticing, which is always on, but there is nothing fixed about it. Nothing touches it, it cannot be located or grasped.
“Does it feel like you are an observer?”
Hmm… there is observing, but not someone observing or not an energy that can be tracked down that it is observed from here or there. But in a way, the observing feels very familiar, more so than a thought or a feeling. It is effortless.
Love,
Ben
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Ben,
"I wonder “who” or “what” believes it. I can see that there is no self, or self is just a label, but I do not see how a label can be believed if there is no entity there to do so."
What does the I point to?
"The only “thing” permanent that there is is the noticing, which is always on, but there is nothing fixed about it. Nothing touches it, it cannot be located or grasped."
Yes.
“Does it feel like you are an observer?”
Hmm… there is observing, but not someone observing or not an energy that can be tracked down that it is observed from here or there. But in a way, the observing feels very familiar, more so than a thought or a feeling. It is effortless.
Ok here is a crucial point.
Is there awareness without perception or perception without awareness. Ever?
Love,
Nettie
"I wonder “who” or “what” believes it. I can see that there is no self, or self is just a label, but I do not see how a label can be believed if there is no entity there to do so."
What does the I point to?
"The only “thing” permanent that there is is the noticing, which is always on, but there is nothing fixed about it. Nothing touches it, it cannot be located or grasped."
Yes.
“Does it feel like you are an observer?”
Hmm… there is observing, but not someone observing or not an energy that can be tracked down that it is observed from here or there. But in a way, the observing feels very familiar, more so than a thought or a feeling. It is effortless.
Ok here is a crucial point.
Is there awareness without perception or perception without awareness. Ever?
Love,
Nettie
-
Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Nettie,
"What does the I point to?"
The "I" points to this body and thoughts and words that are perceived by this body. It is a useful name/ label to communicate. So, it seems that the body/ mind structure believes the label, but without any "beliver" being there.
"Ok here is a crucial point.
Is there awareness without perception or perception without awareness. Ever?"
That's quite powerful. It is clear that there can only be awareness without perception, but not perception without awareness. Awareness is always on, the noticing, in this non-located space without limits, without moments, without anything. Everything is perceived in this space, but it does not need any perceptionst to be there. Perceptions on the other hand need awarenss, otherwise they are not there. So, not only is there no controller from moment to moment, but also no long-lasting separate entitiy.
Those point are clear. Nevertheless, most of the moments during the day, there is that seemingly appearance of a self and actions comes from that point of view. But also, more and more during the day, there are moments, in which that is not the case. There are moments, in which there is pure clarity but many in which there is no clarity.
Much love,
Ben
"What does the I point to?"
The "I" points to this body and thoughts and words that are perceived by this body. It is a useful name/ label to communicate. So, it seems that the body/ mind structure believes the label, but without any "beliver" being there.
"Ok here is a crucial point.
Is there awareness without perception or perception without awareness. Ever?"
That's quite powerful. It is clear that there can only be awareness without perception, but not perception without awareness. Awareness is always on, the noticing, in this non-located space without limits, without moments, without anything. Everything is perceived in this space, but it does not need any perceptionst to be there. Perceptions on the other hand need awarenss, otherwise they are not there. So, not only is there no controller from moment to moment, but also no long-lasting separate entitiy.
Those point are clear. Nevertheless, most of the moments during the day, there is that seemingly appearance of a self and actions comes from that point of view. But also, more and more during the day, there are moments, in which that is not the case. There are moments, in which there is pure clarity but many in which there is no clarity.
Much love,
Ben
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Ben,
"What does the I point to?"
The "I" points to this body and thoughts and words that are perceived by this body. It is a useful name/ label to communicate. So, it seems that the body/ mind structure believes the label, but without any "beliver" being there."
Is there a separate self?
A 'you' other than a word thought?
Look!
"That's quite powerful. It is clear that there can only be awareness without perception, but not perception without awareness. Awareness is always on, the noticing, in this non-located space without limits, without moments, without anything. Everything is perceived in this space, but it does not need any perceptions to be there. Perceptions on the other hand need awareness, otherwise they are not there. So, not only is there no controller from moment to moment, but also no long-lasting separate entity. "
Are you sure? Have you ever experienced awareness without perception?
"Those point are clear. Nevertheless, most of the moments during the day, there is that seemingly appearance of a self and actions comes from that point of view. But also, more and more during the day, there are moments, in which that is not the case. There are moments, in which there is pure clarity but many in which there is no clarity."
So if there is no thinker or chooser when examined... Why would there be when not examined?
Love,
Nettie
"What does the I point to?"
The "I" points to this body and thoughts and words that are perceived by this body. It is a useful name/ label to communicate. So, it seems that the body/ mind structure believes the label, but without any "beliver" being there."
Is there a separate self?
A 'you' other than a word thought?
Look!
"That's quite powerful. It is clear that there can only be awareness without perception, but not perception without awareness. Awareness is always on, the noticing, in this non-located space without limits, without moments, without anything. Everything is perceived in this space, but it does not need any perceptions to be there. Perceptions on the other hand need awareness, otherwise they are not there. So, not only is there no controller from moment to moment, but also no long-lasting separate entity. "
Are you sure? Have you ever experienced awareness without perception?
"Those point are clear. Nevertheless, most of the moments during the day, there is that seemingly appearance of a self and actions comes from that point of view. But also, more and more during the day, there are moments, in which that is not the case. There are moments, in which there is pure clarity but many in which there is no clarity."
So if there is no thinker or chooser when examined... Why would there be when not examined?
Love,
Nettie
-
Actuallyone
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:29 am
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Nettie,
"Is there a separate self?
A 'you' other than a word thought?
Look!"
No, there is no separate self. There is breathing, a body, thoughts, etc. There is looking and if i look for a self the way i look for a table, there is nothing.
"Are you sure? Have you ever experienced awareness without perception?"
That's a good question. I wonder whether we are using the same definitions of the words perception and awareness or whether i don't see this clearly, but let me clarify. When I said awareness i was pointing at that "feeling", which actually is not a feeling, that is always there, i.e. The being alive. For instance, right now, there is a typing happening, and there is an awareness of that. If feels like the fingers, the thoughts appear in the space of that awareness, or aliveness, whatever it is that is enabling the noticing, which is effortless, without anyone doing anything. And when i referred to perception, i was pointing to the perception of a thought or a sensation, my finger touching this screen, which is perceived.
So, if i answer your question based on those definitions, it seems that i have experienced awareness without perception, i.e. In a moment when there are no thoughts, or just when i wake up in the morning and and there are no objects perceived,yet, but just that being aliveness.
"So if there is no thinker or chooser when examined... Why would there be when not examined?"
I looked into this and saw that that self, when not examined is just a story put together by thoughts. And when believed in that story it appears to be real, the focus being on "appears".
Not beliefing the label brought some light today. Many of the things i have written so far are based on many beliefs, i.e. I have trusted the content of thoughts more than the looking. I saw that today. Beautiful.
Love,
Ben
"Is there a separate self?
A 'you' other than a word thought?
Look!"
No, there is no separate self. There is breathing, a body, thoughts, etc. There is looking and if i look for a self the way i look for a table, there is nothing.
"Are you sure? Have you ever experienced awareness without perception?"
That's a good question. I wonder whether we are using the same definitions of the words perception and awareness or whether i don't see this clearly, but let me clarify. When I said awareness i was pointing at that "feeling", which actually is not a feeling, that is always there, i.e. The being alive. For instance, right now, there is a typing happening, and there is an awareness of that. If feels like the fingers, the thoughts appear in the space of that awareness, or aliveness, whatever it is that is enabling the noticing, which is effortless, without anyone doing anything. And when i referred to perception, i was pointing to the perception of a thought or a sensation, my finger touching this screen, which is perceived.
So, if i answer your question based on those definitions, it seems that i have experienced awareness without perception, i.e. In a moment when there are no thoughts, or just when i wake up in the morning and and there are no objects perceived,yet, but just that being aliveness.
"So if there is no thinker or chooser when examined... Why would there be when not examined?"
I looked into this and saw that that self, when not examined is just a story put together by thoughts. And when believed in that story it appears to be real, the focus being on "appears".
Not beliefing the label brought some light today. Many of the things i have written so far are based on many beliefs, i.e. I have trusted the content of thoughts more than the looking. I saw that today. Beautiful.
Love,
Ben
Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide
Dear Ben,
"Is there a separate self?
A 'you' other than a word thought?
Look!"
"No, there is no separate self. There is breathing, a body, thoughts, etc. There is looking and if i look for a self the way i look for a table, there is nothing. "
Yes!
""Are you sure? Have you ever experienced awareness without perception?"
That's a good question. I wonder whether we are using the same definitions of the words perception and awareness or whether i don't see this clearly, but let me clarify. When I said awareness i was pointing at that "feeling", which actually is not a feeling, that is always there, i.e. The being alive. For instance, right now, there is a typing happening, and there is an awareness of that. If feels like the fingers, the thoughts appear in the space of that awareness, or aliveness, whatever it is that is enabling the noticing, which is effortless, without anyone doing anything. And when i referred to perception, i was pointing to the perception of a thought or a sensation, my finger touching this screen, which is perceived.
So, if i answer your question based on those definitions, it seems that i have experienced awareness without perception, i.e. In a moment when there are no thoughts, or just when i wake up in the morning and and there are no objects perceived,yet, but just that being aliveness."
Yet there is awareness always with perception... Even if it is aliveness.
So it is a seamless timeless unitary flow. We call life.
Is there anything solid or stable or fixed?
"So if there is no thinker or chooser when examined... Why would there be when not examined?"
I looked into this and saw that that self, when not examined is just a story put together by thoughts. And when believed in that story it appears to be real, the focus being on "appears".
Yes!
"Not beliefing the label brought some light today. Many of the things i have written so far are based on many beliefs, i.e. I have trusted the content of thoughts more than the looking. I saw that today. Beautiful."
Nice!
Was there ever a separate self?
How do you suppose that illusion starts?
Love,
Nettie
"Is there a separate self?
A 'you' other than a word thought?
Look!"
"No, there is no separate self. There is breathing, a body, thoughts, etc. There is looking and if i look for a self the way i look for a table, there is nothing. "
Yes!
""Are you sure? Have you ever experienced awareness without perception?"
That's a good question. I wonder whether we are using the same definitions of the words perception and awareness or whether i don't see this clearly, but let me clarify. When I said awareness i was pointing at that "feeling", which actually is not a feeling, that is always there, i.e. The being alive. For instance, right now, there is a typing happening, and there is an awareness of that. If feels like the fingers, the thoughts appear in the space of that awareness, or aliveness, whatever it is that is enabling the noticing, which is effortless, without anyone doing anything. And when i referred to perception, i was pointing to the perception of a thought or a sensation, my finger touching this screen, which is perceived.
So, if i answer your question based on those definitions, it seems that i have experienced awareness without perception, i.e. In a moment when there are no thoughts, or just when i wake up in the morning and and there are no objects perceived,yet, but just that being aliveness."
Yet there is awareness always with perception... Even if it is aliveness.
So it is a seamless timeless unitary flow. We call life.
Is there anything solid or stable or fixed?
"So if there is no thinker or chooser when examined... Why would there be when not examined?"
I looked into this and saw that that self, when not examined is just a story put together by thoughts. And when believed in that story it appears to be real, the focus being on "appears".
Yes!
"Not beliefing the label brought some light today. Many of the things i have written so far are based on many beliefs, i.e. I have trusted the content of thoughts more than the looking. I saw that today. Beautiful."
Nice!
Was there ever a separate self?
How do you suppose that illusion starts?
Love,
Nettie
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