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[vinceschubert]

Good morning Vince!

'morning Anna.

I'll try that.

Here is a classic example of sloppy storytelling. "I'll try that." is an intention, and that is fine, but your intention has a built in failure emphasis, hasn't it ? If you had said "I'll do that.", there would be a completely different emphasis, wouldn't there ?
Why is it a story ? Because there's no I, right ? There's no doing either, right ? (we haven't covered this yet, but if i read you correctly, with a quick look you will SEE that control is an illusion too - do it, now)
...and there's no "that".
So to summarize here; Stories are both necessary and useful. The habitual way we tell stories frequently contributes to poor outcomes. Recognizing a) that it is a story, and b) that there are much more skillful ways to tell a story.

mean... things are quite different, but at the same time, it's all the same. And the mind comes up wit doubts and wonders if I just made it up somehow, because I wanted it, or whatever. But I guess this is a moment to chuckle, right?

..perfect.
..but remove the question mark. It was a story, right ? ...and it was SEEn, recognized that it was happening. So yes, chuckle. If you're alone then Guffaw ! Do it on purpose. Once the trigger is established it will come automatically.

Now do this; become aware of your body.
Become aware of your awareness. Now is it possible for awareness to reveal Anna's head at the same time as Anna's left foot ? ..or is there an alternating between them ? (however fast it is)
So then, is it not true that as awareness is like a torch beam in total darkness, everything that is not revealed by the beam of awareness is conceptual ?
Is your body (as a whole) nothing but a concept ? a story ?

love

vince

[Manga]

Dear Vince

Many feelings of gratefulness and joy flowing in this body after reading your reply.

From day to day, the stories seem endless and life becomes quite humorous...

Here is a classic example of sloppy storytelling. "I'll try that."

but remove the question mark.

This way of talking Anna does, is also part of a story. Fear to get it wrong, and so putting question-marks and so on, just in case, not to sound arrogant.
But eventhough "I'll try that" sounds a bit sloppy, thanks for pointing that out, it is happening anyway; the noticing of stories, and the laughing.

Why is it a story ? Because there's no I, right ? There's no doing either, right ? (we haven't covered this yet, but if i read you correctly, with a quick look you will SEE that control is an illusion too - do it, now)

Yes, I got that. I saw (and see) control is an illusion.
And that is beautiful.

If you're alone then Guffaw ! Do it on purpose. Once the trigger is established it will come automatically.

Ok, I'll do that.

Now is it possible for awareness to reveal Anna's head at the same time as Anna's left foot ? ..or is there an alternating between them ? (however fast it is)

When you say "reveal" you mean, that the awareness is there?
Very difficult. I thought I could do it at the same time, but there seems a very quick alternating. Two feet at the same time seems possible.

So then, is it not true that as awareness is like a torch beam in total darkness, everything that is not revealed by the beam of awareness is conceptual ?
Is your body (as a whole) nothing but a concept ? a story ?

Mmmmh....
Difficult to grasp this.
That if awareness is not on something, that something is just a story... that is what you say? (I struggle with the word "conceptual")... I get it... But it somehow doesn't get taken up by this mind. If that makes sense...
Like right now, my little daughter is not with Anna, so right now she is nothing but a story?

Much love & thanks
Anna

[vinceschubert]

That if awareness is not on something, that something is just a story... that is what you say?

What does it matter, what i say ?
Test it out for yourself.
Right now, is your daughter anything more than memory ?, Thoughts ?, Story ?
In fact, isn't the whole world (minus current experiencing) just a story believed by the organism with the Anna label ?
Is it not also true that everything that has ever happened to Anna is a dependent condition. That is it was necessary, exactly as it was, to result in Anna being exactly as she is ?
...and is it not also, also true that everything that ever happened to anybody that had anything to do with Anna, also had to happen in exactly the way it did, for Anna to be as she is ?
...and, and, does this not include the total experience of every microbe that had anything to do with anything that had anything to do with anybody that had anything to do with anybody that had anything to do with the organism with the Anna label ?
Would you say that All of existence, since the beginning of existence, and everything that didn't exist before the beginning of existence, IS Anna ?
Do you grok this ?


v

[Manga]

What does it matter, what i say ?
Test it out for yourself.

Thanks! Yes that's right.

And many thank you's for all the words you've been writing in these days. Lot of gratefulness feelings flowing each time I read an answer your messages.

In fact, isn't the whole world (minus current experiencing) just a story believed by the organism with the Anna label ?

Mmmh, a thought only, yes, that happens in the mind or brain of this Anna organism

Is it not also true that everything that has ever happened to Anna is a dependent condition. That is it was necessary, exactly as it was, to result in Anna being exactly as she is ?

.

Yes. And there is also gratefulness for all that, whether it was labelled good or bad.

...and is it not also, also true that everything that ever happened to anybody that had anything to do with Anna, also had to happen in exactly the way it did, for Anna to be as she is ?

That also makes total sense then yes.

...and, and, does this not include the total experience of every microbe that had anything to do with anything that had anything to do with anybody that had anything to do with anybody that had anything to do with the organism with the Anna label ?

Yes, that then also makes sense...

Would you say that All of existence, since the beginning of existence, and everything that didn't exist before the beginning of existence, IS Anna ?

Yes!
Is Anna in the sense that is all One... And Anna is that too.
But then why isn't felt "deeper" then just the understanding? Why do the I'story thoughts pull this imaginary I in so deeply, that the truth is totally forgotten time after time? I mean, why doesn't the understanding, change the whole outlook on day to day stuff? And why do I not feel "one" with my neighbour, with the tree, with all of existence?
Is it that the old habit patterns of the mind, the neuropathways and all that, are so strong that they just keep repeating old patterns? The neurons travelling the same old tracks, just because that's what they know how to do?

Do you grok this ?

It is understood. But there doesn't seem to be a grok-experience as in " to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed—to merge, blend, intermarry, lose identity in group experience" as wikipedia says.
What happens these days is like, there is "seeing" then the mind- the coming of going of thoughts- tries to make this seeing "mine" in all sorts of ways, by either doubting it, or by somehow feeling good about it. The underlying story is off coure always " I am Anna, and..." ("Anna" as in, a separated person, or identity), and then it branches off in a thousand directions such as "... I am not complete and need something or someone", "... the moment is never good enough for me", "... I am special/ good/ etc", "... I am not special, I am bad, etc", you know the types of thoughts. And the seeing through these stories seem to happen very slowly, or there isn't clear seeing while the thoughts are happening.
A lot of nonsense in the thoughts, that "I" know are not owned by anyone, or by a "me", yet often there is that illusion very much alive. Some moments more then others.

At the same time, more relaxation around having to "get anywhere" with all of this. It is understood that for there to be a no-thing, there has to be a thing first. So there needed to be the illusion of "I", so that then it can be understood there is no "I". Obviously whether a thought will say "I am liberated" or "I am not liberated", does not matter at all. because the idea itself of someone getting liberated is an illusion, a story, an idea, which is not possible. And there is also the seeing that there is noone in control, so the process can unfold by itself, without the tension of seeking.
However... one recurrent thought is that the understanding may only be intelectual and not "integrated", or whatever, not grokked. And therefor, I still spend most the time in senseless thoughts, only to then have another thought about the ilusion of this all??
And the thoughts want there to be two realities. The no-I reality, existing next to the "I am an I" reality. Because that seems to be how it is experienced now. I know that once you hear Santa doesnt exist this cannot exist next to the belief that he does exist, however... now it's like the "playing santa" creates belief that it is the "real Santa".
So... still doing mental gymnastics... These neuropathways must be becoming yogi's by now.
There is some more space when for example I look at a tree, and see the being-ness (could also be a house, or a cup of tea, or the air, ...) ... the being-ness of that "thing" and then there is this "connection" felt of everything just being...
And then the mental gymnastics continue. Which is also okay. There's just that sense that something more is needed to grok. Although while saying that even that doesn't make sense as it is all I-story...
mmmh... this is where it's at now.

And yes, if awareness is not on something, that something cannot be more then thought, story, idea, memory, ...
Thanks for not spelling things out for me.

Lots of love
Anna

[vinceschubert]

And many thank you's for all the words you've been writing in these days. Lot of gratefulness feelings flowing

If vince appears to Anna as shapes on a computer screen, is vince any more than a concept in Anna's mind ? If that is the case, then Anna as the experiencer, is also Anna as the experienced (your concept). Is it possible that there is only Experiencing ?

gratefulness feelings flowing

..story here is that this feels so good because what appears to be the stroking of the connection between two separate BEings, actually turns out to be stroking that ignites a re-member-ing of a forgotten part of 'our' BEing.
The story of vince is entirely Anna's.
It is good that you can write a story that brings you pleasure.
The story that vince has of Anna, is pleasant too.

Is it that the old habit patterns of the mind, the neuropathways and all that, are so strong that they just keep repeating old patterns? The neurons travelling the same old tracks, just because that's what they know how to do?

Yes. Spot on ! That is what the chuckle exercise is designed to do. Re-wire the brain.
There are some expectations that are not seen here too...
Some of those thoughts that are based on other thoughts that say how things should be.
One skill that you are developing here is the ability to spot the difference between what is real and what is story.
A complication with this is that the reaction to story is real. The story didn't have to be real to evoke a real emotional response. The mind then takes this real response as affirmation that what it was based on (the story) was also real.
Suffering ALWAYS starts out this way.

What happens these days is like, there is "seeing" then the mind- the coming of going of thoughts- tries to make this seeing "mine" in all sorts of ways, by either doubting it, or by somehow feeling good about it. The underlying story is of course always " I am Anna, and..." ("Anna" as in, a separated person, or identity), and then it branches off in a thousand directions such as "... I am not complete and need something or someone", "... the moment is never good enough for me", "... I am special/ good/ etc", "... I am not special, I am bad, etc", you know the types of thoughts. And the seeing through these stories seem to happen very slowly, or there isn't clear seeing while the thoughts are happening.

Yes, the same as above. Habit. Habit has momentum. The chuckle exercise is like having power brakes. Just celebrate the recognition that you were about to dive into a story. Also celebrate that recognition, whenever it is SEEn that this is about to happen/is happening now/has happened but is now finished.
Now it is important that you see these thought streams as simply part of the native flora of Anna. Like intestinal flora, they have a job to do and can do it without any reference to head office.
Most thoughts have about as much relevance to Life-ing as does the sound of the refrigerator.
What percentage of Anna's thoughts would you say were actually useful ?

At the same time, more relaxation around having to "get anywhere" with all of this. It is understood that for there to be a no-thing, there has to be a thing first. So there needed to be the illusion of "I", so that then it can be understood there is no "I". Obviously whether a thought will say "I am liberated" or "I am not liberated", does not matter at all. because the idea itself of someone getting liberated is an illusion, a story, an idea, which is not possible. And there is also the seeing that there is noone in control, so the process can unfold by itself, without the tension of seeking.

This sounds like the kind of stuff that a liberated 'person' would say.
This is a good point to ask you this;
Is it possible, in any way, for THIS, This that IS, for THIS as things are NOW, is it possible for it to be different in ANY way ? Is it ?
This is IT, and there's no changing it. For (even) at the speed of thought it becomes the past, and is nothing but memory (thoughts).
So is there any point in responding to regret stories ? ..or wasting time writing stories of how it might have been ?
How much Freedom is in that ?

mmmh... this is where it's at now.

..and a very good at it is too.

You are flying baby !
Just relax and feel the updraft.

love love

vince

[Manga]

Hello again

If vince appears to Anna as shapes on a computer screen, is vince any more than a concept in Anna's mind ? If that is the case, then Anna as the experiencer, is also Anna as the experienced (your concept). Is it possible that there is only Experiencing ?

Vince is an idea/ a story of someone who typed these shapes that appear on the computer screen. Nothing more then a concept in this mind, no. I understand there only being experiencing. I dont't see how Anna can be the experiencer, but it goes a bit blank when I read "Anna as the experienced 'your concept); you mean that Anna is my concept? In that case, yes.

The story of vince is entirely Anna's.

Yes.

It is good that you can write a story that brings you pleasure.

Yes. Just that it is not "my" pleasure. But the pleasure (or gratefulness in that case) is real, no? Or the sensations that are labelled pleasure are.

There are some expectations that are not seen here too...
Some of those thoughts that are based on other thoughts that say how things should be.

Yes. There should be more clarity, no more doubts, feeling of one-ness, all of that. There should not be boredomn, irritation, confusion, etc.
There is a lot of seeing of should-be's these days.

One skill that you are developing here is the ability to spot the difference between what is real and what is story.

Yes...

What percentage of Anna's thoughts would you say were actually useful ?

Maybe 5%... Very little. Sometimes something just comes, in the form of a thought, which is useful. But all the endless chattering...

Is it possible, in any way, for THIS, This that IS, for THIS as things are NOW, is it possible for it to be different in ANY way ? Is it ?
This is IT, and there's no changing it.

No
Thoughts keep trying to say the opposite, but ... no.

So is there any point in responding to regret stories ? ..or wasting time writing stories of how it might have been ?
How much Freedom is in that ?

No
And no
Yes that is freedom. It's beautiful.

Just relax and feel the updraft.

Mmmmh....

Lots of love
Anna

[vinceschubert]

I understand there only being experiencing.

By who ? ..or what ? (this is a trick question)

I dont't see how Anna can be the experiencer

When i say "Anna", i mean that organism with the label of Anna. This includes the thought stream.

you mean that Anna is my concept? In that case, yes.

Yes, and that concept, that story includes sub-stories of the details of what makes up the previously believed in Self. There are also stories about the happenings that shaped, that made up this Self. Further, there are stories about the circumstances out of which those happenings arose. Stories about the world and how it works. Deductions based on a cause and effect story.
The result of all of that is Experiencing, NOW!

The following are all trick questions;
To whom is that experiencing happening ?
Where is it happening ?
When is it happening ?
What is being experienced ?
If there is only experiencing, can there be anything else (separate) ?
Is Experiencing separate from the noticing of it ?
Would it be more accurate to say that there is only Noticing.
The question arises here, that is there a noticer and a noticed ? ...but this is the nature of language, and language is the mode of our verbal thoughts. Language itself implies that there is a subject and object. It is inherent in the word. But that is not what is known here. Here, there is experiencing that Noticing is all there is. Is it vince noticing ?, is it Anna noticing ?
..or is it Noticing, noticing itself noticing about noticing ?


love love love

vince

[Manga]

Hello again

Manga wrote:
I understand there only being experiencing.
By who ? ..or what ?

If there is only experiencing, there doesn´t have to be an experiencer.
What is aware of the experiencing is the awareness.

To whom is that experiencing happening ?

Not to any ´whom´. It is just happening.

Where is it happening ?

In this case, in the body-mind structure that we label Anna

When is it happening ?

Now

What is being experienced ?

Right now, the experiencing is thoughts about what to write, fingers typing, seeing of forms, colours, on a screen, hearing is happing, experiencing of warmth, pain in different places, tingling, pressure etc etc in the body....
... thinking, feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting etc.

If there is only experiencing, can there be anything else (separate) ?

Not that "I" know

Is Experiencing separate from the noticing of it ?

They are the same

Would it be more accurate to say that there is only Noticing.

Yes you could say that. As in the awareness.

Is it vince noticing ?, is it Anna noticing ?
..or is it Noticing, noticing itself noticing about noticing ?

Mmmmh... the words are doing a weird dance in this head... "Just noticing", is what comes up in a thought.

The question arises here, that is there a noticer and a noticed ?

Okay there is no noticer... But the noticed, is that what is happening in the body and mind? That is there isn´t it? And then if there is looking at this screen, there is a screen... or not? Only the noticing of it?
Mmmmh...

Lots of love
Anna

[vinceschubert]

What is aware of the experiencing is the awareness.

...and is this awareness the experiencing ?

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?
Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Anything to add?


love

vince

[Manga]

Hello...

...and is this awareness the experiencing ?

.... yes, I guess you could say that these are the same.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there isn´t and there was never.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

When it started for "me" I don´t remember exactly, but like with my daughter, it must have been in the early years, like 2-3 year old when this idea of self started to take hold, starts to solidify. The illusion is that this body-mind organism, that has been given a name, Anna, is somehow different from all other organisms-things around, because it is governed by a separate entity, which is in control of what this organism does with or in life. That is believed in strongly by "everyone" around, and therefor this belief is strengthened and ´justified´time and time again. However, this belief, this idea, is only another thought that happens in this organism that we call Anna. And from this idea start many oter stories of ilusion, all based on this first misunderstanding. The stories are endless and the bodymind organism reacts to different experiencing according to these stories, with different thoughts, and sensations, that are then taken as "mine".

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

Nothing changed, yet everything changed.¨
Anna didn´t change. Also the illusion of separate self still often continues in Anna, however, that is then also seen. There are the same types of reactions and emotions happening in Anna as before this seeing happened. Yet there is now seeing that wasnt there before. The seeing that there is no "I" in control, is making place for a lot of relaxation. There is then no need for judgement, neither of Anna nor of others. In that there is a lot of softening.
There is also thoughts such as "I did this, I accomplished something, look at me", but that is also seen for what it is.
There is much reason to laugh.
The last few days there was illness in the body. There were many sensations that were labelled by the mind. Still there is an arrange of sensations that are labelled unpleasant. This is seen. There is at this moment to wanting for that to be different, and this is part of the general relaxation that comes with seeing that there is no control. And that there is only this moment.
The moment before seemed like an idea that "I" wanted to be "in" more of the time. Now it is seen that there is only this moment, so whether there is thought or not, there is only this. So no need for wishing to be "more" inside this.
Maybe the words don´t get to the point. But relaxation and softening is maybe what describes the change best.
These days there is just being, now, in a momentum that is in movement constantly...

Anything to add?

Yes
Lots of gratefulness and love

Anna

[vinceschubert]

Hi Anna, i need to get 3 other guides to confirm my opinion, that you have passed through the gateless gate, then you will be invited to join a Facebook group where 'gatecrashers' support each other.
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in Unleashed, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.(when confirmation occurs)
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

and a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf


love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Hi Anna, some questions from other guides;
What is Anna?
Is Anna inside a bodymind organism?

vince

[vinceschubert]

...and another;
Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

vince

[Manga]

Hello
I don't have facebook....
are there other ways?

What is Anna?
Is Anna inside a bodymind organism?

Anna is the name (label) for this body-mind combination. It's the label for the body and all that happens there, for the stream of thoughts, emotions, etc. Anna isn't inside this bodymind organism, it is nowhere to be found, it is just the name for this bodymind organism.

Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No there is no I to make anything happen. If there is a choice "to make" "by" "Anna", it is just thoughts that come to speak that there is a choice to be made, then there are thoughts that come to speak that there is this and that option, then there is thought that speaks of taking this option, this process seems as if Anna had a choice to make, and made it, yet there was no control over these thoughts, and the apparent choice was made by itself.
When it seems that I make a bread, it is just thoughts to organize ingredients (for example), hands putting flour into bowl, water, salt, sourdough-culture, oil, etc, hands kneading, maybe thoughts about more or less water or about something else totally unconnected to the breadbaking, and it is just all happening, while it appears that anna is doing this. But inside this bodymind organism called anna, there is no entity that is "I" that is in control of this ...

Need to send it now before battery runs out.

Lots of love
anna

[Manga]

found the plug for the laptop
i never answered this one

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Not sure if there was an exact point, more like gradually there was more seeing.
What was important to help me see was the understanding of not being in control, and thus of others not being in control either. Then there were thoughts of experiences, as if the thoughts were trying to proove this new seeing wrong; so there were thoughts of rape, murder, addiction, all very unpleasant things in life, and the seeing that that was and is all as it had to be/ or as it is, there was or is no control by anyone over that either. And like that it is not only for Anna, but for everyone and everything. With that came a lot of relaxation, and love, and a softness.

Much love
Anna