Locustafiera requesting guide

[Hannah B-T]

woah up there!...lots of analysis going on here...lots of thoughts about something that really is blindingly, stunningly simple.
I'm glad to hear things are unravelling...you know what...there's absolutely nothing 'you' can or need to do about that except keep looking/ checking like i suggest. Isn't that a relief. No need to analyse, no 'right' or 'wrong'.

Keep checking the choice thing. Getting up and walking across the room...driving is a good one, how many 100's of 'choices' are being made perfectly well without this guy:

The I is like the guy at work who runs around trying to be in charge when things are already working perfectly

:)

However, the general answer to the thing you told me to check, about the Me ceasing to exist, is yes. I disappear. It's nice when I disappear. It would be good if I disappeared more often, maybe to stay disappeared... although how could I tell? It only seems evident that I disappeared for a while when I reappear, and only then is it apparent that it was enjoyable

No. If there is no entity 'self' how could it pop in an out of existence?!
There is still a belief in a self going 'an operating assumption' as you put it. Understandable.
But does that mean there is actually a real entity 'Andrew' existing in the body somewhere?
Like what? Some sort of gremlin under a bridge that pops up?

If there never was a self, what is there to lose here?

There is a fear here. Does deconstructing the self result in a loss of awareness.

Look straight at that fear. Deconstruct that ;) What do you mean 'loss of awareness'? Exactly what are the thoughts trying to say will happen here? What sensations are coming up with this fear. Give me more detail on this.

If you were to point at a little old lady and say, 'meet my son', that would feel wrong in a similar way, no physical sensations, but a mental sense of 'not right'.

Run with this.
Look into the mirror for a while, especially deep into the eyes. Is that image 'andrew'? Can you see a self in the eyes?
Try it with animals as well if you have any handy!
How is that animal 'tigger' or whatever?
Take a look at some childhood pictures. That image looks pretty different right? Biology says every single cell in the body replaces in a 7 yr cycle. Not one cell you are looking at in that mirror was there 7 years ago. Where could a self reside?
Remember what you said at the beginning about permanence when you looked, that's key here...

Posession is relevant too:
'my car'
'my tv'
'my body'
'my seat on the bus'

How are any of these 'your's'?

[Locustafiera]

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No. If there is no entity 'self' how could it pop in an out of existence?!
.... does that mean there is actually a real entity 'Andrew' existing in the body somewhere?
Like what? Some sort of gremlin under a bridge that pops up?
--------------------------------
Comments were a bit tongue in cheek. I mean, that when I forget about the self, it's cool, like a trance or flow. When the consciousness, or idea of self returns, the spell is broken. OK, I know that really it's the state of believing in my self which is the spell, but then as you know I'm not fixed yet.
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- If there never was a self, what is there to lose here?
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I can't locate my self and this shakes the belief in self, but there are so many thoughts that keep coming up to bolster the belief back up.
Self is an idea - got that - so it doesn't exist - got that. But...I'm still behaving as if it is real.
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Look straight at that fear. Deconstruct that ;) What do you mean 'loss of awareness'? Exactly what are the thoughts trying to say will happen here? What sensations are coming up with this fear. Give me more detail on this.
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I mean, if I stop believing in a self, then it disappears and with it must go self awareness - the knowledge of the right and wrong, good and bad of actions. This organism becomes a slave to instinct - animal. This is bollocks when I think about it, cos I've already decided I am such a slave.
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-- Look into the mirror for a while, especially deep into the eyes. Is that image 'andrew'? Can you see a self in the eyes?
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That's was a bit unnerving. It felt like I don't know that guy, that its not me.
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Not one cell you are looking at in that mirror was there 7 years ago. Where could a self reside?
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DNA code? Why is every person's DNA different? But I suppose this is not the definition of 'self' we are talking about.
I have never had a problem understanding that the self cannot reside anywhere physically. I know I won't find a physical self. My issue is that I seem to be considering the possibility that spirit is not detectable in the physical world. This thought breaks the ground rules I suppose, but I'm struggling to get past it.
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Posession is relevant too:
'my car'
'my tv'
'my body'
'my seat on the bus'

How are any of these 'your's'?
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No, I have only my direct experience right now, nothing more.

[Locustafiera]

In fact, my experience in the moment is all there is.

I looked more at the bum on seat sensation. There is just a 'plank' of feeling. The feeling seems to be a thing in its own right and that's all there is - no bum or chair.

[Hannah B-T]

In fact, my experience in the moment is all there is.

BINGO.

I can't locate my self and this shakes the belief in self, but there are so many thoughts that keep coming up to bolster the belief back up.
Self is an idea - got that - so it doesn't exist - got that. But...I'm still behaving as if it is real.

What can a thought DO except be a thought?
Show me something a thought can actually do or control.

I mean, that when I forget about the self, it's cool, like a trance or flow.

That's a state. We're no looking for states. We are looking for clarity.

I mean, if I stop believing in a self, then it disappears and with it must go self awareness - the knowledge of the right and wrong, good and bad of actions. This organism becomes a slave to instinct - animal. This is bollocks when I think about it, cos I've already decided I am such a slave.

slave to instinct! lol bit dark and dramatic for my tastes!

And what exactly is this 'i' here that can 'be a slave to instinct'??

How about this- life is just lifeing. The mind and body is not separate to life. It all flows just as it was meant to. It always has.
Nothing to do.
Nothing to be.
How's that float your boat?

That's was a bit unnerving. It felt like I don't know that guy, that its not me.

Well is that image in the mirror 'you' or not? Be clear on this.

DNA code? Why is every person's DNA different? But I suppose this is not the definition of 'self' we are talking about.

No that's a biological theoretical model. Cool that you clocked this.
Can you see how some of the confusion is answering itself now...

I have never had a problem understanding that the self cannot reside anywhere physically. I know I won't find a physical self

No. Sorry. i;m gonig to call you on this on the 100% honesty groundrule. If you really knew that why are you getting unnerved with the mirror experiment? Why are thoughts saying strongly that certain sensations in the body are indicative of a 'you'? why at the beginning of this conversation did you say 'i feel like the self is the body' to me.
Cool if all that has resolved itself...but don't let the thoughts throw you off looking again and again if needed. That's what they do 'oh...i know that (i.e there is an idea about it popping up)...that's sorted then...stick it in a box marked done'.
That's why you check in the direct experience:

Is the body the perciever of experience? Or is it simply perceived, as sensations labelled tactile and kinaesthetic?

Have you found a hearer? A see-er? A smeller? A taster? A toucher? A thinker?

Is there an 'inside' and 'outside' in direct experience?

No, I have only my direct experience right now, nothing more.

BINGO.
That is the only place that will show up what's going on about this. Not thoughts. Not concepts. Trust what it is starting to reveal, without words.

xx

[Locustafiera]

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What can a thought DO....?
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It can piss me off, well....not me of course...thoughts can't get pissed off. I see the circularity, but .... a thought can't look either, so what is it that keeps looking for the I, as instructed?

Ah, there's nothing to find and nothing is looking. How silly. There an idea about looking. How funny. The world is full of no-ones. Dreamers.
And now a laugh.

[Hannah B-T]

Had big grins at your last post :)

How's tricks today?

Still laughing?

xx

[Locustafiera]

Things are gooooooood. Can't stop grinning.

Can't thank you enough.

Is there anything more to do?

X

[Hannah B-T]

Always my absolute pleasure.

We have a standard set of questions here which we ask at this point. They are usually just interesting and fun to answer. I then show this dialogue to some other experienced LU guides who see if they have any more questions/pointers to add in the mix if anything looks unclear or confused still...

after that, LU has lots of 'aftercare' groups and a supportive community on facebook, where any doubting thoughts or remaining confusion, further inquiry etc can be brought to the table and discussed.

There's no rush for all this. I suggest let's give it till sunday am to let any initial 'side effects' settle out a bit :)- and then we can see what thoughts might be popping up... i'll post the questions then, unless you have other ideas?

<3
xx

[Locustafiera]

Cool. No other ideas here. Just sweet sweet reflections.

Post away :)

X

[Hannah B-T]

Morning!
Here the questions are- let's see what the response is. If you don't feel ready to answer or any other issues have popped up that aren't answering themselves, let me know first off and we can look at those.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

xx

[Locustafiera]

Hannah, it's gone. The conviction is gone, I'm back to square one, wondering what happened, what went wrong.

[Hannah B-T]

Nah. Nothing's wrong. Honestly. I'm here in this dialogue for as long as is needed.

ok then- what exactly seems to be different between how things were a few days ago and now that is giving the impression of 'square one'? Has a sense of a self returned? And? Does that mean a real self has popped into existence?

Just relax, sit back...
Just take another look...

tell me what is found again.

xx

[Locustafiera]

Thanks!

Yes a sense of self has returned.

Here's what happened. Things were good until I spoke today with an old friend who has been a Buddhist (Tibetan) for many years, a guy from whom I originally sought guidance after my peak experience back in May.
He was dismissive, said I had simply had another peak experience, a nyam, and that it wouldn't last, and got quite 'vajra?' with me. His argument was not too convincing, but I did begin to wonder. Remember the fear of being taken in and looking foolish. Over the course of the evening, the sense of self came back and I felt as if the effect of the realisation had worn off. I reread the words of my awakening post and hardly recognised them.
I meditated, feeling the need to. Helped a little.
Things have come back a bit since then, but there is a foggy confusion. There is this sense that it was all a dream.

Has a real sense popped into existence? There's a presupposition there! Oh dear. It was going so well too.

[Locustafiera]

Hi Hannah,

Things are a bit calmer now. Writing helps to sort things out - I'm just going to paste below what I wrote this morning so you can see where things are at:
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And now a setback.
So. This is spiritual mate. It’s not going to feel ‘normal’ is it? It’s what you were after anyway, in retrospect. This is what floats your boat. Something radical, but at the same time, you already know this, you’re like Dorothy waking up in her own bed…..
So it starts like this. All you have is your direct sensory experience at this moment (funny that it was ATs teacher from whom you first heard this). It disappears sooner than you can realise it’s even there and is replaced by completely new sensations. It’s all you have, and its gone before you can grasp it. It’s all there IS. Impermanence. (and there’s even no such thing as impermanence). You cannot be conscious of more than one sensation at a time, (or is it set of sensations? does the organism aggregate sensations some times?). Rub the backs of your hands together. You can sense only one hand at any one time. The organism connects up all the dots, fills in all the gaps. At any time there is your sensory experience and what you think you ‘know’. Notice that what you think you know is extremely unstable!

AT believes in make believe. His models are vast and complex but he doesn’t see the simple truth. Bravo for wanting to help, sorry it didn’t turn out to be so easy. You heard the tremor in his voice when challenged even slightly. You ask about no-self, he describes the Tibetan way of dousing anger by deliberately 'losing' self identity, he struggles with the question about why you wouldn't want to lose that identity at all times and stalls, then he comes back with ‘its the wrong question’. Too smelly this time. He’s like the Wizard. Smart, persuasive but pretending. Except in his case he doesn’t know it. He is positioned as mentor, he is copying his teachers, he can’t let you be right. He’s invested all this time in make believe – you have to go through what he’s been through to earn the right to go home. You have to kill the wicked witch – but you haven’t got a chance. All you need to do is wake up.......'

Feeling better now :-)

[Hannah B-T]

Yes. Doubting thoughts can come from anywhere! I still have these sorts of conversations all the time with friends of mine from the Buddhist tradition i was involved in....they aren't easy.
Because then a new story writes itself- the 'i got it, i lost it' story.

Just ask again:
What is the 'i' there that can get it or lose it?
When this story drops out again, what is the problem here? in direct experience, outside the stories (thought content), is there a self there? Ever?

you already know this, you’re like Dorothy waking up in her own bed

yes. This has always been known. Trust that. It's far too simple, too clean, not enough meaning, not enough drama for the thoughts to get their teeth into. They don't like seem to like that.

it starts like this. All you have is your direct sensory experience at this moment (funny that it was ATs teacher from whom you first heard this). It disappears sooner than you can realise it’s even there and is replaced by completely new sensations. It’s all you have, and its gone before you can grasp it. It’s all there IS. Impermanence. (and there’s even no such thing as impermanence). You cannot be conscious of more than one sensation at a time, (or is it set of sensations? does the organism aggregate sensations some times?). Rub the backs of your hands together. You can sense only one hand at any one time. The organism connects up all the dots, fills in all the gaps. At any time there is your sensory experience and what you think you ‘know’. Notice that what you think you know is extremely unstable!

This is great stuff! you are really looking with gas here!
Let me just nitpick and go further with this, that's my job right ;)

It’s all you have, and its gone before you can grasp it

What can 'have' experience? What could possibly 'grasp it'?
Is there an Andrew here who can 'have' a little slice of experience/life?
Is that how it is?

I'll leave you with this one:

Can you find anything existing outside the present moment?

xx