I would like a guide please.

[dian]

The second way is truer. Experience is here without labels. Happening is here. Labels don't effect the experience they just describe it. No me behind the word me.
The body was quite tight through the first 10 minute exercise and for a while also during the second 10 minutes, then I watched the left palm face up and the body felt relaxed for the remainder of the 10 minutes.
Experiencing of every moment is here without labels. Nothing is different except the labelling.
Labels do not effect the experience they really just describe it.
As for what is not on automatic. Everything is on automatic. Everything Dianne says or thinks or does is automatic. Writing these words is automatic. The sentences in my head are automatic as I write them down.
We don't need to be enslaved by labels. Experience happens with or without labels.
I am quite a way into the Gateless Gatecrashers book. The things that wake others up surprise me. It is still an intellectual thing for me and they seem to get it with a sentence at just the right time. When I go back and read the sentence they talk about I wonder how did they get it from that.

I found this website through No.Self.com.

Bye for now
Dianne

[Canfora]

Hi Dianne! Good work looking at language / labels.

At the moment we looked in body, thought and language and you didn't find a real Dianne inside the body, doing the thinking or controling thoughts or made real by language. Keep trying to find a real separated you, living your everyday life!

Thank you for telling a bit about your story. Let's look at that too.

I always wanted to know why are we here and how did we get here.

Where do these thoughts about the need for answers came from?
Are they permanent?
Are they made by you and yours?

Are they about something that is possible to find in reality?
Or are they more like the thoughts about the self, that refer to something that can't be found in reality, only in thinking?

Can you find your past story here and now? Or you're future story?
What are stories of past and future made of?
When do they happen?

Let's say you would know the answers to all your questions with 100% certainty that you found the absolute truth. Would what's here and now change? Would This, Life, What Is change?
Thoughts content could be about changes but in experiencing, what would be different?

The things that wake others up surprise me. It is still an intellectual thing for me and they seem to get it with a sentence at just the right time. When I go back and read the sentence they talk about I wonder how did they get it from that.

How do you think waking up will be like?

Sending love, Sandra

[dian]

Hi Sandra,
WHERE DO THESE THOUGHTS ABOUT THE NEED FOR ANSWERS COME FROM?
Like all thoughts they just come. They don't come from Dianne.

ARE THEY PERMANENT?
No not permanent. They come and go as all thoughts do.

ARE THEY MADE BY YOU AND YOURS?
No I do not make them they appear and disappear and Dianne has no control over that.

ARE THEY ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS POSSIBLE TO FIND IN REALITY?
No Dianne cant find them in reality just other thoughts of memories pop up but they pop up in the present time.

OR ARE THEY MORE LIKE THE THOUGHTS ABOUT THE SELF, THAT REFER TO SOMETHING THAT CAN'T BE FOUND IN REALITY, ONLY IN THINKING?
They can only be found in thinking and Dianne has no idea what thoughts will come and when.

CAN YOU FIND YOUR PAST STORY HERE AND NOW? OR YOU'RE FUTURE STORY?
No I can find only thoughts about my past story and thoughts about a future story.

WHAT ARE STORIES OF PAST AND FUTURE MADE OF?
All stories of past and future are made of thoughts.

WHEN DO THEY HAPPEN?
Thoughts of past and future can only happen now in the present.

LET'S SAY YOU WOULD KNOW THE ANSWERE TO ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WITH 100% CERTAINTY THAT YOU FOUND THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. WOULD WHAT'S HERE AND NOW CHANGE? WOULD THIS LIFE, WHAT IS CHANGE?
Nothing would change with this life. The only thing that would change would be the seeing that nothing is done by Dianne. Dianne's life would still happen all on it's own it's just the perspective that would change.

THOUGHTS CONTENT COULD BE ABOUT CHANGES BUT IN EXPERIENCING, WHAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT?
Experiencing would not change. That just happens, experiencing happens no matter what Dianne thinks she knows the answer to or not. And the thoughts that Dianne thinks she doesn't know the answer to are still just thoughts happening without Dianne.

HOW DO YOU THINK WAKING UP WILL BE LIKE?
Like flowing. At the moment Dianne feels in control and has to watch what she does to be able to keep on top of everything going on in her life. Relief would be the result of knowing that Dianne can just let life happen and she has no control.
Not holding on to everything so tightly just letting go and letting be. Life happens and Dianne plays her part without having to believe she writes the script which she has to get just right.

Bye for now
Dianne

[Canfora]

Hi Dianne and thank you for your answers. They are so "textbook perfect" that I feel the need to ask if they are coming from thinking, from an intelectual understand of how the "right" answers should be or if you are looking at reality to see what's true? How does it feel to see these clear answers?

Are you having difficulties using the quote function? It's OK like you're doing but it seems to be a lot of unnecessary work. To quote my words you need to use the Quote Reply button on the left when you enter in edition - not the Quick Reply one at the middle in grey. Place the mouse cursor were you want the Quote to appear, then go to my post and underline the text you want to quote and clic the option Quote that appears in the top right of my post.

Like flowing.

Dianne, what can you find in life that isn't just flowing? Aren't all thoughts about how this should be appearing in the flow, like... everything? :)

HOW DO YOU THINK WAKING UP WILL BE LIKE?
Like flowing. At the moment Dianne feels in control and has to watch what she does to be able to keep on top of everything going on in her life. Relief would be the result of knowing that Dianne can just let life happen and she has no control.
Not holding on to everything so tightly just letting go and letting be. Life happens and Dianne plays her part without having to believe she writes the script which she has to get just right.

Yes, controle it's a stumbling block to most people.

Relief would be the result of knowing that Dianne can just let life happen and she has no control.

Thought labels/explains experience telling that there exists a you that can choose, decide and has preferences, but is this true? Can this doer and chooser be found or just the doing, the choosing happening as the flow of life?

Let's give a good look at choice and controle, starting with a simple exercise:

Take two objects/possibilities, of wich you might ordinarily choose either, for example, coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way.

Describe how choosing happens.

Do you see a chooser?

Sending love, Sandra

[dian]

Hi Dianne and thank you for your answers. They are so "textbook perfect" that I feel the need to ask if they are coming from thinking, from an intelectual understand of how the "right" answers should be or if you are looking at reality to see what's true? How does it feel to see these clear answers?

I am trying to answer honestly but thinking is definitely involved in my answer. Sometimes I think well, that was true yesterday so that's my answer. Not done intentionally but the mind does want to go with what it knows and move on to the next question. Hope you can help me get past this.

Are you having difficulties using the quote function? It's OK like you're doing but it seems to be a lot of unnecessary work. To quote my words you need to use the Quote Reply button on the left when you enter in edition - not the Quick Reply one at the middle in grey. Place the mouse cursor were you want the Quote to appear, then go to my post and underline the text you want to quote and clic the option Quote that appears in the top right of my post.

Like flowing.

Dianne, what can you find in life that isn't just flowing? Aren't all thoughts about how this should be appearing in the flow, like... everything? :)

Sitting at the computer when I type it just flows but sometimes I have to stop and think what I am going to write so thinking is involved. Then sometimes it feels like that's the only answer it could be nothing else makes sense but then that could be intellectual.

HOW DO YOU THINK WAKING UP WILL BE LIKE?
Like flowing. At the moment Dianne feels in control and has to watch what she does to be able to keep on top of everything going on in her life. Relief would be the result of knowing that Dianne can just let life happen and she has no control.
Not holding on to everything so tightly just letting go and letting be. Life happens and Dianne plays her part without having to believe she writes the script which she has to get just right.

Yes, controle it's a stumbling block to most people.

Relief would be the result of knowing that Dianne can just let life happen and she has no control.

Thought labels/explains experience telling that there exists a you that can choose, decide and has preferences, but is this true? Can this doer and chooser be found or just the doing, the choosing happening as the flow of life?

Let's give a good look at choice and controle, starting with a simple exercise:

Take two objects/possibilities, of wich you might ordinarily choose either, for example, coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way.

Well I sat with a blue and black pen and the thought popped into my head "I'll write with the blue pen". But was that my choice? So I thought I am going to choose myself so I choose the black pen but that was just a thought that popped into my head. There is no choice only thoughts. No choice-point on the part of Dianne at all.

Describe how choosing happens.

Choosing happens before the choice is a thought.

Do you see a chooser?

Nope, I don't see a chooser that happens before Dianne sees the thought.

Sending love, Sandra

Sandra did you awaken through Liberation Unleashed? When did that happen? How long did it take? Just curious.

Bye for now
Dianne

[Canfora]

Hi Dianne. I just lost a post, it disappeared in cyberspace. Argh! Good try with the quote function! If you press Preview instead of Submit you can see how your post will look before submitting.

Sandra did you awaken through Liberation Unleashed? When did that happen? How long did it take? Just curious.

I wouldn't use the word awaken but I understand what you're asking. Yes, I can say that I awaken through LU. I crossed the Gate in the end of May. It didn't take long, I was very tired of searching and I knew how to look. That helped. In this last months I've seen dozens of people crossing the Gate, they're stories are unique, the time it takes them to walk this path can be short or long, the way this is lived after is also unique and they all did it by looking at reality.

I am trying to answer honestly but thinking is definitely involved in my answer. Sometimes I think well, that was true yesterday so that's my answer. Not done intentionally but the mind does want to go with what it knows and move on to the next question. Hope you can help me get past this.

Yes, thoughts do what thoughts do and you're going well, don't worry. All this is already happening without a you.
Just remember that this isn't about what you think, it's about looking to what's always here - beyond thoughts, in the absence of thoughts, to thoughts - and seeing if a you can be found in every experience.

If I tell you: "Dianne, can you find your keys?" you would know how to find them. There would be thoughts about the localization of the keys and you would look for them in the usual places. It's this kind of looking that you need here: LOOK, can you SEE a you?

You can do the same when thinking happens: can you see a you thinking, are these your thoughts?

And with everything you can think about: when getting up in the morning, what makes the body get up from bed? Is a you controlling the body? Driving your car, is a you doing anything (be careful if you try this one - to me it's easy seeing that experience happens in automatic mode when driving)? When you talk with someone, can you see a you choosing every word, the tone of the voice, the way body moves? And so on...

Sitting at the computer when I type it just flows but sometimes I have to stop and think what I am going to write so thinking is involved.

Thinking happens. Thoughts about Dianne will always appear... Can you see a you doing the thinking? At this moment for instance? Just LOOK. Can you see a separated entity called Dianne?

Describe how choosing happens.

Choosing happens before the choice is a thought.

Do you see a chooser?

Nope, I don't see a chooser that happens before Dianne sees the thought.

Is a Dianne seeing thoughts? Can you see her seeing thoughts? How do you know she's there?

When you look at something, like this computer screen. What is experienced?
A seer (Dianne) + the seeing (action) + the seen (object/screen)?
Can you see division in experience? Tell me what you find.

Sending love, Sandra

[dian]

Hi Sandra,

I could find my keys easily (that's not always the case I can search for ages for them some days). But with my keys there are places they are likely to be or they have fallen down from where they have been put so they usually turn up. The only place I can think to look for a ME is in the body and ME is not there no matter how much I look.

They are not my thoughts. I can't even keep up with them. It's like seeing messages come in really fast on a computer screen and trying to claim them as mine as I read them. Never knowing what's coming through to appear on the screen but still having a crazy notion they're mine.

A thought 'it's time to get up' makes the body get up in the morning. No there is no you controlling the body. Driving the car is easy to see there is no me. The mind wanders and then I realize I'm almost home. I like to watch the scenery as I drive as if it's coming towards me and I'm staying still. Feels very real sometimes.

No I don't choose every word or movement of the body when talking to someone. I was talking to someone this morning I hadn't seen in a while and didn't realize I was moving my grocery bags from one hand to the other until she said "I better let you go those bags look heavy". With our conversation the words just flow there is no planning to say anything or obsessing about the way the body moves.

When you say "can you see a separate entity called Dianne" I picture a 59 year old woman called Dianne. I cant actually see her just hands writing. A sandwich gets raised up and chewing happens. It's all automatic like somebody has a remote control and they are controlling Dianne's movements. If I take that even further they are also choosing which thoughts should come into Dianne's awareness. Dianne's just a puppet.

Is a Dianne seeing thoughts? I can't see thoughts or hear thoughts but thoughts come and go. Thoughts are like a non stop monologue that Dianne's attention wanes in and out of. That probably doesn't make sense but its like being aware only sometimes of thoughts but feeling they are going on always anyway and not caring if they're noticed or not. Only Dianne cares and attaches to some of them. I hope I don't sound too crazy.

How do I know she's there? She's arms moving, writing, drinking tea, uncrossing legs, looking out the glass door. She's in motion but no central command inside doing these things.

When I look at the computer screen I just experience seeing not seer + seeing + seen. No division just seeing happening.

I better go before this gets lost in cyberspace with yours. Hope you can make sense out of it all.

Thanks for your continued help.
Dianne

[Canfora]

Dear Dianne you're staring at no-self, that's clear by your answers.
Identification with the "character" Dianne and its story exists and it's possible that it will always come and go in experience. But when you look, can you find this self that you thought you were for more than 50 years? Is she more than an appearing and disappearing thought? Keep trying to find the prove of her existence.

Can you find a permanent experience of something - thoughts, body, sensations, sense of being - or is experience constantly changing? Even the thought that Dianne exists, is this thought always present? Is this thought thinking Dianne in to existence? What makes Dianne real?

Look to what's here, to what's experienced.
What's real? Describe what you see.

Sending love, Sandra

[dian]

But when you look, can you find this self that you thought you were for more than 50 years? Is she more than an appearing and disappearing thought? Keep trying to find the prove of her existence

The self that I thought I was for more than 50 years is very persistent. She has 50 years of memories and thinks that proves her existence.

Is she more than an appearing and disappearing thought? Keep trying to find the prove of her existence.

She's there with her preferences, she likes the birds that come down to feed on her bird stand. She likes peaceful quiet times and walking with her dog. She doesn't like the weeds that keep growing in her garden after the rain or the cat next door who comes over to stalk the birds and sometimes kill them.
But when I look hard without these thoughts and others she's not there. So even when thoughts are present she's not there. Thoughts come and go but she remains the same. Not to be found in the looking. Even more evasive than the thoughts that come and go. With no control over thoughts and actions how can she be at all.
Thoughts come and go, body's a bit tougher because it feels like its always here, sensations come and go and change constantly. Sense of being - I cant find a sense of being no matter how hard I try. Where would I even look?

Even the thought that Dianne exists, is this thought always present?

The thought that Dianne exists isn't always present Dianne just does what she does automatically. Thoughts come Dianne follows action happens life is lived and breathed without Diannes permission.

What makes Dianne real?

Just the thoughts that she is the one thinking, doing, cooking, cleaning, walking, swimming that she claims as her own. Dianne doesn't actually own them.

Look to what's here, to what's experienced.
What's real? Describe what you see

Writings happening, hearing the fan is happening, hearing the wind is happening, breathing's happening, body movements happening - all real. No Dianne doing all these things.

So here I am still on the wrong side of the gate hoping to go through soon.

Bye for now and thankyou for your patience
Dianne

[Canfora]

Hi Dianne!

The self that I thought I was for more than 50 years is very persistent. She has 50 years of memories and thinks that proves her existence.

You talk about Dianne in a way that makes it seem like a entity. Is she? Does she own a past, a future and a story?

Writings happening, hearing the fan is happening, hearing the wind is happening, breathing's happening, body movements happening - all real. No Dianne doing all these things.

Exactly. That's it. You're seeing what's true in experience. Thank you for looking.

So here I am still on the wrong side of the gate hoping to go through soon.

Is this true? Can you see a you or a gate? What is hope made of? Can you find a Dianne that is hoping to cross the gate? Or is this other story about Dianne? An expectation about how the future will be?

Is anything changing in experience since you started this process?

(I've been trying to find the reason way I said I don't like the word awaken and I did: there is no one to awaken, there was no one asleep.)

Sending love, Sandra

[dian]

Dianne's thoughts in the present can be about a past, a future and a story but they are thoughts in the present not happenings in another time. When I think of a memory in the past it is a thought now.

I can't see a me at a gate. It's an expression. What is hope made of? Thoughts. I can find thoughts of hope but they come and go as all thoughts do. It's another story about Dianne and the thought that she's not where Sandra is.

Nothing is changing in experience since I started this process.

Bye for now
Dianne

[Canfora]

What are you expecting to happen?
What are you expecting to change?
What does Sandra have that Dianne has not?

Sending love, Sandra

[dian]

Hi Sandra,


Are these trick questions.

How can an I that doesn't exist be expecting anything to happen. Right now life is happening and Dianne is in the foreground of that. Life should be in the foreground and Dianne just being open to it.

Clarity and acceptance. As everything is happening and I am not making anything happen acceptance of what is.

Sandra is life happening and not attaching to or trying to change whats happening now. Sandra knows Sandra is not in control but Dianne doesn't have that clarity or maybe just wants to claim everything as her doing.

Dianne

[Canfora]

Hi Dianne, thank you for answering the "tricky" questions.

Right now life is happening and Dianne is in the foreground of that.

Is this true?
When you look to what's here, now, is this what you see:
life happening + Dianne in the foreground of life happening?
Life + Dianne?
You can THINK this is true, but when you LOOK, what do you SEE?
A you here and a life there? How does this work?
Just LOOK...

Sending love, Sandra

[dian]

Hi Sandra,

Here is my rambling for today.
Thought I would sit in a coffee shop today with pen and paper so not to be distracted by what I should be doing at home. Even distractions are not Dianne's just more thoughts.
Please don't feel you have to read all this just giving an idea of what was happening and the first few lines should tell you that.

ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS I HAVE PLACED AT THE END

Writing is happening. Noises are heard. Judgement is thought. This is too loud. Objects are noticed. Body position is changed, back is noticed, head is noticed, table is noticed. Noise is noticed. Talking noise. A hum not individual words. Pen writes fast to keep up. Milk poured, tea poured, smell of tea noticed, smell of muffin noticed, bite taken, chewing happening, tasting chewing swallowing, tongue cleaning lips, biting chewing thinking this tastes good, swallow, tea drank, biting, chewing swallowing, seeing muffin head to nothing, can't see mouth, disappears, chewing happening, tasting happening. Thoughts appear no owner, just come noticed gone, hand writing, back noticed and muffin noticed. Thought can't write fast enough to keep up with happenings tea's tasted, laughter heard, pleasant here is thought. Muffin yum. Not seen where bite goes felt in belly, belly seen, automatic movements can't keep up with words or thoughts on paper. Notice new people at table, bite muffin drink tea, swallowing, tongue automatically reaching for bits left in mouth. Cant see mouth or tongue, sensations. Thought am I going to be able to work out quote function today. Don't want to appear like an idiot is thought. Muffin comes toward nothing and disappears, taste, noticed fingers back away. Tea cup tipped, tea disappears warm sensation. Didn't even notice the thought to pour more tea, done automatically. Thoughts of superman movie, back writing now present only loud annoying laugh is heard over the hum of sound. Will I ever get this is wondered. Where did it come from. Dianne wants to claim it. Thoughts come and go while tasting, drinking, eating goes on.

Muffin disappears , sensation of chewing, swallowing, tongue wiping lips, butter noticed on plate. Thought of daughter. Loud laugh heard very annoying. Thought nothing would get done if I had to wait to think it myself. So slow writing, slow looks like fast as pen races across paper but really too slow for sitting chewing drinking hand curled notice phone see sugar bowl think they've changed now. Muffin gone, Dianne feels full wants to claim all eating, drinking, fullness is Dianne in the foreground. Writings going on without her, teas looked at without her, cups lifted without her, pen writes without her. Tea noticed cup noticed, drinking happening, thoughts must get shopping done happening. Where did that thought come from. The arm I can see. Noticing people come and go. NO Dianne needed for that. Noticing is happening

dian wrote:
Right now life is happening and Dianne is in the foreground of that.

Is this true?
When you look to what's here, now, is this what you see:
life happening + Dianne in the foreground of life happening?
Life + Dianne?
You can THINK this is true, but when you LOOK, what do you SEE?
A you here and a life there? How does this work?



When I look I can't see Dianne. Arm, hand holding pen writing, shoulder seen, sensation felt of head on palm and elbow leaning on table but head not seen. No Dianne just hearing seeing writing sensations. Thoughts happen, movement happens, looking happens, sensations happen.
Take away Dianne's ownership and it's not different, pen moving thoughts thinking sensations in body.

How could it work Dianne here and life there. Life moves through Dianne as sensation, sights, sounds if I really look I have no say in anything. I thought I might have a say in where I put my attention but the thought comes to put attention on the breath, Dianne didn't think it. It appeared with sounds, sights, thoughts of body sensations.
Life just happening. Not claiming just seeing hearing tasting.