Looking for assistance

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

Just quickly Pete, is it normal to experience strong frustration and restlessness with this? I find myself currently very isolated with very little to do to fill time. Would you suggest any mantras or practices or meditation? Have given everything away to focus on this process here (By way of books, satsangs and podcasts, was never much good as sustaining meditation for long)

I thought I'd reply to this first. So yes, the feelings of frustration and restlessness that you mention are something that many people investigating no self and looking into direct experience encounter. The prospect of discovering that there really is no you, no self-entity, isn't something that most people take lightly so it's not surprising that you should feel these feelings, perhaps together with some anxiety, tension, sadness, even fear. It's quite common to have these feelings when the truth of no-self starts to really kick in. So, although it's clearly unpleasant and can be disturbing, don't worry, it's a good sign. Consider any fear you have of no self to be a protective mechanism. It's doing its job perfectly, and it's a loyal friend and protector. It's just that fear can't discriminate between a genuine danger and the danger of losing something like the self, that can't be lost because it's not there in the first place.

Anyway, it's best not to try to resist any of these feelings; resistance only fuels them. Just recognise them for what they are. You didn't make them happen, they are just arisings in awareness that will soon subside. Easier said than done, I know, but try to relax and just watch them come and go.

You could try basic mindfulness of breathing, just being gently aware of your inbreath, then the gap and then the outbreath. It's very grounding and calming. Or, do what I do, just sit for 10 to 40 minutes, whatever suits you, eyes open or shut, it doesn't matter, and just let yourself be aware of what's arising and subsiding in your awareness: sense arisings and thoughts (without getting involved in the thought contents). Basically, you don't do anything, it's just being broadly aware. I hope this helps.

For example, I will think 'brush my hair' and watch the body respond and begin brushing my hair in the mirror. It feels like I'm inside that body.This moving being that seemingly does what the head commands. If I couldn't see the reflection of it, perhaps it would be easier to not think I was it.

Do you notice how you say it feels like I'm inside that body, and this moving being that seemingly does what the head commands? But these aren't facts evidenced by experience are they? Aren't they just based on thoughts? Can you find anything in direct experience that shows there's a 'you' inside your body, or even that there's 'your body'? Can you find any evidence of a 'you' in your head commanding you to do things? What would that even mean? what would that entity be like? And how could there be one 'you' telling another 'you' what to do?

It is the same with hearing and smelling. That there is just hearing and smelling with no evidence in direct experience of anybody doing the hearing and smelling. I find touch different and also taste to a certain degree, because it seems even with direct experience that the skin of the body is a boundary of sorts, between the external being experienced by the internal. (Fingertips, tongue, tastebuds etc)

Could you explain what you mean by it seems even with direct experience that the skin of the body is a boundary of sorts, between the external being experienced by the internal. How can something seem to be something else in direct experience? Can you tell me where this boundary is to be found, rather than as a concept generated by thought?

When walking it feels as though there is an "I", a mind involved, negotiating pitfalls, tree roots etc. Ensuring a certain path is taken.

Again, you say if feels as if there's a self-entity involved acting like a commander, making sure stuff happens.
But can you find any experiential evidence for her? Or is it that thoughts arise to claim credit for certain actions that they've had no influence on at all? Take a look to see when you do things if that happens.
Bear in mind all the things we often do 'without thinking', like walking, driving, typing, without any problems, it's seemingly automatic. Then we, spontaneously, focus in again, realise what's going on and a thought spontaneously arises that says something like, 'Wow, how did I manage to do that, lucky I'm back in control doing this!' It's just another I-thought re-asserting and perpetuating the myth of a separate self. Anyway, never take my word for any of this Zoe, just look at your direct experience to see for yourself.

Lots of love, Pete

[Zoe Mac]

Evening Pete,

Hope you are well.

Consider any fear you have of no self to be a protective mechanism. It's doing its job perfectly, and it's a loyal friend and protector. It's just that fear can't discriminate between a genuine danger and the danger of losing something like the self, that can't be lost because it's not there in the first place.

I must be honest and let you know that I can find no fear relating to “no self” when experiencing these feelings. There’s fear of being alone, but not the prospect of my identity being an illusion. There’s a lot of frustration that “I” can’t see beyond the façade. All sorts of others. Sadness and loss of a recent relationship. But not things pertaining to direct experience. Shall take your advice and try to just watch these things without resisting.

Thank you for the watching breathing suggestion. Was very helpful today.

Do you notice how you say it feels like I'm inside that body, and this moving being that seemingly does what the head commands? But these aren't facts evidenced by experience are they? Aren't they just based on thoughts?

Ah yes. Tricky tricky. On further inspection, there’s no evidence of a me in this body, it just FEELS that way. When taking a breath it feels like the breath flows into my lungs – but there’s no proof or evidence that any of it is happening.

Can you find anything in direct experience that shows there's a 'you' inside your body, or even that there's 'your body'?

I can’t find a “me” making commandments to the body. Only thought stream that seems to correspond with the actions of the body.

What would that even mean? what would that entity be like? And how could there be one 'you' telling another 'you' what to do?

I don’t know haha! It’s just what I’ve always unquestionably believed. I guess I never thought of the whole thing as one me telling another me what to do, more like a control centre operating a machine. Being the brain operating the body. Whilst writing this belief I can see again, there is nothing to corroborate it within direct experience.

Could you explain what you mean by it seems even with direct experience that the skin of the body is a boundary of sorts, between the external being experienced by the internal. How can something seem to be something else in direct experience? Can you tell me where this boundary is to be found, rather than as a concept generated by thought?

Gah! Getting very confused. I am still in the belief that I’m the body I guess. I rub fingertips together, watch it happen and experience the sensation of friction (finger on finger) – So claim they are my fingers. Otherwise how would I feel it? With this comes the assumption that inside the skin, the body is me. Outside is everything else. Yes, I see the word assumption. No proof. No evidence. Ohhhh getting confused. I can’t find barriers without conceptualisation.

Again, you say if feels as if there's a self-entity involved acting like a commander, making sure stuff happens.
But can you find any experiential evidence for her? Or is it that thoughts arise to claim credit for certain actions that they've had no influence on at all? Take a look to see when you do things if that happens.

I have been watching the body today and realise I was mistaken about the minds total control of it. Right now my hand just brushed my neck and chest completely of its own volition. I didn’t notice it had happened until thinking on it seconds after. Similarly, while driving today I noticed my hand constantly changing the gears with no thought involved. (That I could note) Little things like this I am noticing.

Warm wishes,

Zoe x

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

I must be honest and let you know that I can find no fear relating to “no self” when experiencing these feelings.

Good, I'm glad. It's more pleasant and simplifies your looking quite a bit.

Ah yes. Tricky tricky. On further inspection, there’s no evidence of a me in this body, it just FEELS that way. When taking a breath it feels like the breath flows into my lungs – but there’s no proof or evidence that any of it is happening.

Excellent. There's an old saying that 'seeing is believing' that you might know, and I suppose it's true, although 'seeing is knowing' might be better. What certainly isn't true is that 'believing is seeing', as you're discovering.

I can’t find a “me” making commandments to the body. Only thought stream that seems to correspond with the actions of the body.

Yes, the mind (i.e. thoughts) is crafty like that, always saying 'Look at me, over here, I did that. Aren't I clever/stupid/special' etc., etc.

Gah! Getting very confused. I am still in the belief that I’m the body I guess. I rub fingertips together, watch it happen and experience the sensation of friction (finger on finger) – So claim they are my fingers. Otherwise how would I feel it? With this comes the assumption that inside the skin, the body is me. Outside is everything else. Yes, I see the word assumption. No proof. No evidence. Ohhhh getting confused. I can’t find barriers without conceptualisation

Yeah, don't get hung up on trying to figure all this out. If the whole no-self thing was amenable to logical analysis, most of us would have easily seen through the illusion long ago. It seems that, when the mind/ego senses that it's being 'found out', as you're doing now, it generates these kind of puzzles to solve, as distractions or red herrings, to try and halt the slide towards truth. I remember it happening to me. Just keep looking into your direct experience, that's all there is to it really.

Essentially, there's nothing at all wrong with thoughts; they are just part of our overall experience of living life and are obviously indispensable for analysing, planning et. They won't go away or stop just because we want them to but, if 'you' don't become involved in these thoughts, but just recognise them for what they are i.e. potentially dodgy data packages wound up with self-serving opinions and judgements (easier said than done I know, but this does work) it makes it easier not to be seduced by their content, particularly I-thoughts.

I have been watching the body today and realise I was mistaken about the minds total control of it. Right now my hand just brushed my neck and chest completely of its own volition. I didn’t notice it had happened until thinking on it seconds after. Similarly, while driving today I noticed my hand constantly changing the gears with no thought involved. (That I could note) Little things like this I am noticing.

That's just what I hoped you'd see. It's quite an amazing discovery isn't it? Again, just keep looking to see if there really is a powerful wizard behind the curtains controlling everything, or indeed, anything.

So, let's now move on a little from doing/controlling to deciding/choosing (although the border between these is, to say the least, a little hazy and you've already covered a lot of this ground). Anyway, try this exercise:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

I think this is going well and I'm enjoying working with you Zoe. How is it for you?

Pete x

[Zoe Mac]

Hi Pete,

It’s been a pretty long day. Apologies in advance if my post is not very succinct.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice?

There’s no point exactly in which I can pin point the precise moment of choice and find an entity that chooses it, or appears to be doing so. There’s “the sense” of a command. To be more precise as my arm goes up, the mind states “Raise.”
(As a side note – I’m currently retyping the results of the experiment which I scrawled down a few minutes ago in a notepad. The mind is utterly convinced that I only wrote these experiences on the pad because it was what I was pointed to do, to see, and thus saw)

In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

The command from the head actually appears to be seconds after the movement has actually happened. I don’t know if I’m tricking myself because I have done the experiment over and over. I can’t tell. Actually now, the head says raise, and the arm raises after. Initially when I did this experiment and wrote down immediate results from various tries- the thoughts came after, but now trying it again as I type, they seem to come before and promote the response. Uck. I don’t know.

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE .

Great footage, thank you! I have shared on Facebook, I hope that’s ok? Shall delete if not.. I really should have asked beforehand! Each time I watch this piece it seems to bring up fresh questions.

I think this is going well and I'm enjoying working with you Zoe. How is it for you?

I’m enjoying this process Pete. Actually I’m enthralled. Up until now all my searchings have involved listening to superior people’s ideas and philosophies and then personally trying to relate, expand or intellectually understand them. Here, you are asking me to do nothing but look at my direct experience, and am noticing things that for all the study and effort I have not yet seemed to. For that, you have my deepest thanks. (That being said- I’m looking at this statement and what “Up until now is, I am unsure.)

Am grateful,

Zoe x

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

There’s no point exactly in which I can pin point the precise moment of choice and find an entity that chooses it, or appears to be doing so. There’s “the sense” of a command. To be more precise as my arm goes up, the mind states “Raise.”

It's not as if there's no 'choice' or 'decision' happening, it's just that when it does arise it's not done by any choosing entity called 'me' or whatever, but more like the outcome of a unique combination of infinite prior conditions.

As a side note – I’m currently retyping the results of the experiment which I scrawled down a few minutes ago in a notepad. The mind is utterly convinced that I only wrote these experiences on the pad because it was what I was pointed to do, to see, and thus saw)]

It's good that you are aware of such doubt-thoughts seeking to undermine this seeing through the self-illusion.

The command from the head actually appears to be seconds after the movement has actually happened. I don’t know if I’m tricking myself because I have done the experiment over and over. I can’t tell. Actually now, the head says raise, and the arm raises after. Initially when I did this experiment and wrote down immediate results from various tries- the thoughts came after, but now trying it again as I type, they seem to come before and promote the response. Uck. I don’t know.

And yet here doubt seems to have, temporarily at least, got the upper hand.

Just try putting your hand on the arm of the chair or the table. Look at it and think ‘I’m going to move that now’. Does it necessarily move because of that thought? Try that repeatedly, notice when it moves and when it doesn’t move. Does an ‘I’ thought actually cause it to move? Does your arm sometimes move when you haven't chosen to move it? Or does another part of your body move instead? And does it sometimes not move when you've thought 'I'm going to move it now'? Try it with different body parts and movements. Does there appear to be any real connection between the thought and the action in terms of outcome or timing?

Also, please try this exercise on choosing as well:

Take two objects or possibilities, where ordinarily you might choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper. Then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happened.

Essentially, all I can ask you to do is look, look and look again, at what your raw experience is. Can you find an actual entity, a self, that does, controls, chooses or decided anything? If you can, please let me know what that is, how it appears and how it does whatever it does.

Great footage, thank you! I have shared on Facebook, I hope that’s ok? Shall delete if not.. I really should have asked beforehand! Each time I watch this piece it seems to bring up fresh questions.

Glad you enjoyed it. There's no need to delete it. By all means keep it, share it, no problem.

I’m enjoying this process Pete. Actually I’m enthralled.

I like enthralled, that's a good word for the LU guiding experience. I'm just really happy to help you with this process.

Pete x

[Zoe Mac]

Hi Pete,

Just try putting your hand on the arm of the chair or the table. Look at it and think ‘I’m going to move that now’. Does it necessarily move because of that thought?

I tried this experiment and my arm didn't move. It actually made me laugh. It was as if it were stubbornly glued there in an act of defiance. I noticed that when I started to pen this response, the arm jumped into action without being told.

Try that repeatedly, notice when it moves and when it doesn’t move. Does an ‘I’ thought actually cause it to move? Does your arm sometimes move when you haven't chosen to move it? Or does another part of your body move instead? And does it sometimes not move when you've thought 'I'm going to move it now'?

I tried a second time. Whilst I thought, "I'm going to move my arm." Nothing happened. Though when the mind began going off on another random thought tangent, I watched my index finger curl on it's own.

On all other tries it wouldn't move, until I picked up my pen to write down this observation.

Try it with different body parts and movements. Does there appear to be any real connection between the thought and the action in terms of outcome or timing?

I tried the same experiment with my foot and instead of my foot moving, my upper thigh clenched. Also, I just noted that my foot changed position the minute I started writing and attention was focused elsewhere.

Sometimes there is clearly no thought responsible for various movements, though sometimes the thought and action arise simultaneously, so its hard to draw conclusions.

Take two objects or possibilities, where ordinarily you might choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper. Then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happened.

I looked at a red and a blue pen. I looked between the two. I then thought 'I'm choosing the red.' And seconds after tapped it with my fingers. A second time I stared at them and decided "blue pen" and picked it up. Third time my eyes settled on the red pen, then the head voice said "red." I found it very difficult with this experiment to decipher if the thought came first or the action.

Can you find an actual entity, a self, that does, controls, chooses or decided anything? If you can, please let me know what that is, how it appears and how it does whatever it does.

I can't find an entity, just constant thoughts speaking if one. Sometimes there's no thought involvement in physical happenings but sometimes the minds decisions are timed exactly as things happen. I find it hard in these instances. Is the mind claiming the doing of a thing so quickly that I can't see any time lapse? Is it actually in control? Or are the two things not mutually exclusive?


If it's ok I wanted to ask you a question about something my head has been repeating in the last couple of days, though I'm not sure it's relative.

In first year Biology, we learned about autonomic body responses which we were told by-pass the conscious intervention of the brain. And also spinal reflex pathway responses which utilise nerves that bypass the brain altogether to bring about body action. The details are hazy, was years ago, but again and again my mind has been mounting this as a defense to explain it's lapses in control. Is this another clever trick or could it explain it?

I love science, find it fascinating but its all theoretical. Noones ever seen an atom, just imagined it through powers of deduction...
The things I learned at uni were theories passed from mouth to mouth and accepted as fact without question.

Minds running riot. Sorry for the rambling.

Your input as always eagerly awaited.

Kind regards,

Zoe x

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

I tried this experiment and my arm didn't move. It actually made me laugh. It was as if it were stubbornly glued there in an act of defiance. I noticed that when I started to pen this response, the arm jumped into action without being told.
I tried a second time. Whilst I thought, "I'm going to move my arm." Nothing happened. Though when the mind began going off on another random thought tangent, I watched my index finger curl on it's own.
On all other tries it wouldn't move, until I picked up my pen to write down this observation.
I tried the same experiment with my foot and instead of my foot moving, my upper thigh clenched. Also, I just noted that my foot changed position the minute I started writing and attention was focused elsewhere.

Brilliant, so no matter what you did, it was crystal clear that there's just no-tiny-controller/decider inside your head running everything.

Sometimes there is clearly no thought responsible for various movements, though sometimes the thought and action arise simultaneously, so its hard to draw conclusions.

Then, much as you did in your previous post, you let doubt in and say it's hard to draw conclusions. Why do you need to draw conclusions. Isn't that just more thinking? Ignoring what 'your' thoughts might say, in direct experience, have you found any indication at all of an entity, a self, doing anything, or causing anything to happen? If so, please describe it in detail

I looked at a red and a blue pen. I looked between the two. I then thought 'I'm choosing the red.' And seconds after tapped it with my fingers. A second time I stared at them and decided "blue pen" and picked it up. Third time my eyes settled on the red pen, then the head voice said "red." I found it very difficult with this experiment to decipher if the thought came first or the action.

The point of this particular exercise is to actually see in direct experience the instant a choice/decision is made, to see if there's a choosing function, a specific entity that's 'you' doing it, making that choice. So,perhaps try this again but this time maybe choosing between tea and coffee, or between some other drinks that you might prefer?

After you've chosen, and the preference for coffee/tea (wine/beer maybe?) arose, did you in that very moment of choosing choose that preference? Did you in that moment experience a choosing function? If so, what did it look like? If it was a feeling, did you actually experience that feeling to make a choice? Is choosing something that feelings actually do? Did you witness a feeling performing such a function? What does that look like? Do feelings actually consider and do things? Or is just a thought that says so? Did the choice just happen?

In first year Biology, we learned about autonomic body responses which we were told by-pass the conscious intervention of the brain. And also spinal reflex pathway responses which utilise nerves that bypass the brain altogether to bring about body action. The details are hazy, was years ago, but again and again my mind has been mounting this as a defense to explain it's lapses in control. Is this another clever trick or could it explain it?

Yeah, I'm vaguely familiar with that but, whether you believe it's true or not, I can't see whether responses travel via the brain or not argues one way or another for the existence of a separate self. It may well be that, as the BBC video clip says, 'decisions' occur in the brain, albeit 6 seconds before we become aware of them, but isn't that a strong argument for there being no self, save for the misleading thought telling us 'I did that'? However, really, all we're concerned about is, can a self entity be seen anywhere in direct experience?

I reckon that if we move on to looking at thinking and thoughts now, that will link up nicely with the stuff you've just been looking at, so:

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Lots of love, Pete

[Zoe Mac]

Howdy Pete, thanks for your post.

Then, much as you did in your previous post, you let doubt in and say it's hard to draw conclusions. Why do you need to draw conclusions. Isn't that just more thinking? Ignoring what 'your' thoughts might say, in direct experience, have you found any indication at all of an entity, a self, doing anything, or causing anything to happen? If so, please describe it in detail

Discounting the rumblings of the mind, I haven't found any entity or self, no.I have seen thoughts that part of the time have nothing to do with bodily movement and happenings, and part of the time correspond with actions.

After you've chosen, and the preference for coffee/tea (wine/beer maybe?) arose, did you in that very moment of choosing choose that preference? Did you in that moment experience a choosing function? If so, what did it look like? If it was a feeling, did you actually experience that feeling to make a choice? Is choosing something that feelings actually do? Did you witness a feeling performing such a function? What does that look like? Do feelings actually consider and do things? Or is just a thought that says so? Did the choice just happen?

I'm really really sorry, I don't think I'm getting this choosing part. Is there any way to break it down further?
I went into the kitchen, (am housesitting at the moment so didn't know what drinks are available) pulled out boxes of teas... Chamomile, green tea with pear or chai. Chamomile was immediately discounted and I looked between the other two. I thought go with the green tea, but then noticed it read "loose leaf." Thoughts arose saying "Too hard, I'll have the chai- And that's what I made.

Feel disappointed here, like am supposed to be seeing something that I'm not.

I witnessed no feelings as you asked, just witnessed a stream of thoughts that happened and correlated with the outcome. Seemingly changed the outcome. But I realise seemingly means that there's no way of knowing if they did.

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

I have asked myself this thousands of times and the answer has not once made itself known. Now, as I look for it in direct experience... Nowhere... I don't know...

Are you in control of them?

Definitely not. They are arising spontaneously and at a rate of knots.

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Sometimes it seems I can push the thoughts away, or distract myself from them. In saying that though it rarely happens intentionally so I guess I'm not consciously stopping them in that scenario, rather finding an out without understanding what I'm doing. I can only see the defensive manoeuvre from what I can recall in hindsight.
Wait! I just realised none of what I just talked about was from direct experience...

Observing my thoughts just now, I saw that thoughts jump from one to the other to the other, sometimes cutting the last one off, but never with the intention of stopping the other in its tracks.

Its possible to stop one in the middle, but only with another thought that's come from nowhere unbeknownst to me, so I guess no, "I" can't stop it in the middle.

Do you know what the next thought will be?

No. That's clear.

Is "I" a different thought than say a table?

Wow. I really don't know how to answer that. I can see a table, I can't see "I." "I" is an idea. The idea of an entity within a body with a lifetime of experiences, nuances, beliefs.. Right here in direct experience I can touch, see, smell, taste (if I wanted) a table. I can't find "I". I can find body, much like a table, except animated. Much like a bird. That's all.

Can a thought think?

This question is causing my mind to go blank...

...Pondering this question...

Here, now, there is nothing. No thought. So I can't observe if a thought can think.

I've never observed a thought think. How could it?

Oof this one seems too much for this little head.


Feelings of discomfort, irritation, frustration arising. Interesting to watch. Strange.


Really appreciate your patience and kindness!

Zoe x

[moondog]

Hi Zoe,

Discounting the rumblings of the mind, I haven't found any entity or self, no.I have seen thoughts that part of the time have nothing to do with bodily movement and happenings, and part of the time correspond with actions.

It's good to actually know that you've found no self at all during these investigations.

Given that you've found no self at all doing anything, what do you mean when you say that part of the time (thoughts) correspond with actions? If there's no self evident in direct experience, what does a thought corresponding with an action actually mean? Or is it a thought?

I'm really really sorry, I don't think I'm getting this choosing part. Is there any way to break it down further?
I went into the kitchen, (am housesitting at the moment so didn't know what drinks are available) pulled out boxes of teas... Chamomile, green tea with pear or chai. Chamomile was immediately discounted and I looked between the other two. I thought go with the green tea, but then noticed it read "loose leaf." Thoughts arose saying "Too hard, I'll have the chai- And that's what I made.

Yes, but were you aware of a self actually choosing/deciding: to go into the kitchen, to have a cup of tea, to pull out the boxes 'you' chose to, to discount chamomile, to go with the green tea, to notice that it read 'loose leaf', to think, 'Too hard I'll have chai''? If you didn't what is your doubt based on?

In every waking moment we're making countless small choices, like where to move our eyes, to blink, to move our arms, get up, speak, and on and on. All I can do as your guide is keep telling you to look and see whether you can find a separate self running your life anywhere. So far, you haven't found anything resembling one.

Feel disappointed here, like am supposed to be seeing something that I'm not.

No, you're not supposed to see anything because there's nothing to see, that's the point. You look for a self everywhere, it's not there, it never was. So nothing's different, except now you know. And in that way, and that way only, everything's different, and one's perspective on life is changed forever. It's really as simple as that. It's only taking seriously the contents of thoughts that say that this can't be it, this isn't what I expected, this isn't working etc. that complicates this.

Is "I" a different thought than say a table?

Wow. I really don't know how to answer that. I can see a table, I can't see "I." "I" is an idea. The idea of an entity within a body with a lifetime of experiences, nuances, beliefs.. Right here in direct experience I can touch, see, smell, taste (if I wanted) a table. I can't find "I". I can find body, much like a table, except animated. Much like a bird. That's all.

Great answer. You clearly see that thoughts just pop up, pass through and disappear in a seemingly random stream. No thinker, just thinking.

That being so, how can thoughts whenever they occur in relation to choices or decisions being made have any influence on or connection with those choices? And, even if they did, where would the self, the 'I' be in all of this?

Please tell me your response to this, Zoe, 'I' is just a thought..so it can't be a thinker, doer, witness or anything at all...

So far you've looked into sense arisings, doing, control, choosing, deciding and thinking and have not found a shred of empirical evidence for an 'i' existing, just thoughts about 'me'. Now, let's look at what's left, the body, something I know we touched on earlier:

Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Pete x

[Zoe Mac]

Whoa. So..

Choosing happens, sometimes thoughts are iI don't involved. But i don't generate thoughts, or influence them in the slightest, so I'm not the chooser. I'm not that. It's just happening.

I just woke in the middle of the night and read your response. Found this particularly poignant. Need to try to get some mire sleep and will look into the rest tomorrow.

Zo x
Ps - is sleeplessness a part of this process? Some nights only 2 / 3 hrs?

[Zoe Mac]

Please ignore 'il don't' not sure where that came from!

[moondog]

Hi Belinda,

Yeah, you got it! Choosing just happens, just like thinking, seeing, hearing, walking. Everything just happens really. Life just happens and you're just life, living itself.

Oh, and sleeplessness definitely happens when this seeing no-self is happening. I hope you did get some good sleep anyway.

Love, Pete

[moondog]

So sorry Zoe,

Forgive me. My last message definitely was for you, just got my wires crossed. I hate doing that, but then, of course, it did just happen and very clearly shows my total lack of control!

Love, Pete

[Zoe Mac]

Haha, not at all. 'il don't' 'Belinda' -it happens and is no bother :)

still no sleep but feel too wired to attack questions yet. Great to know it's part of proceedings though as can relax with it.

Many thanks x

[moondog]

Thanks Zo.

Take it easy.

Pete x