Sojourner at the Gate

[csm]

Hi Soj!

A quick note of clarification to start as I realized I used a misleading term earlier. In talking about the five senses I wanted to steer clear of the word feeling because it has so many different connotations. But my use of the word "tactile" to preface it was too limiting. As I'm sure you've gathered sensations like muscle contraction are fair game in DE too!

So, when you sat with the statement, some bodily sensations arose. Did they seem to be in reaction to the statement? If so, what were they?

Here's an exercise for you:

Find a time when you won't be disturbed. Write down what you are experiencing in that moment as directly as possible.

I am sitting on the couch, I am typing words, I am hearing a rustling sound...

Continue this for 10 minutes.

Check the body; are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for the next 10 minutes write without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:

feeling warmth, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rustling.

Again check what is happening in the body.

Now compare these two ways of describing and labeling experience — is one more true? If so, which one?
What is here now without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Love, Sage

[Soj]

Sage, hi!

So, when you sat with the statement, some bodily sensations arose. Did they seem to be in reaction to the statement? If so, what were they?

I will try again now ... Yes. There is a feeling of relaxation in reaction to the statement. A feeling of "melting" into and "expanding" awareness at the same time. But I can't really say that this are bodily sensations. Besides that there are some usual bodily sensations (like some mild tension in a stomach) for which I think they are not related to the inquiry.

Exercise

I am sitting on a chair. My cat is meowing, looking for my attention. I am typing these words. I am feeling a mild tension in my stomach. I am feeling a pressure of my toes to the floor. I am seeing my mobile phone blinking. I am hearing laptop's fan running. I am feeling a pressure in my forearms leaning on the table. I am checking online to see if forearms is a correct word. I am hearing my mouse when I am moving it on the table. I am hearing keyboard sounds. I am checking my body during this. No special sensations of tightening or relaxing. I am resting my palms on the keybord. I am feeling the warmth of my laptop on my palms. I am thinking about stopping this phase of the exercise.

Now without I ... Feeling pressure on my forearms. Hearing meowing. Hearing sound of running water. Watching screen. Seeing cursor blinking. Feeling warmth. Hearing fan. Seeing blinking light on a phone. Hearing children voice. Breathing. Exhaling. Moving toes. Waiting for more sensations. Closing eyes. Watching bodily sensations. Watching around. Seeing box. Turning head. Hearing motorcycle.

In the second part of the exercise I could say that body with its senses played a role of a sensory input. Reporting sensations to the consciousness. Hmm ... Actually this is the same for the first part of the exercise also. But in the second part of the exercise, really no separate me is needed for that. No need for a person nick named Soj for these sensations to occur, to be registered. No need for a person, but a need for a consciousness. So, which experience is more true? I would say more primary, more basic, more true is the second experience. Everything would still be happening if there would be no labels attached to anything. It would still be sensed and reported.

Sage, I read through your process with Nona. It is interesting that I can identify with a lot of your experiences described during the process. I too feel that it is a gradual process for me, I too am a very thinking person ... Maybe it would help me a lot to talk about your "missing days" from the forum :).

Love, Soj.

[csm]

Hi Soj!

Maybe it would help me a lot to talk about your "missing days" from the forum :).

Not much chance of that, I'm afraid. Your best bet is to look deeply at your own experience. Anything from mine is just a distraction. But I'll humour you for a moment and just say that the looking that showed me the illusion occurred during that thread. In the gap I did spend some time with the App, and those exercises helped solidify things a bit, but the real seeing all took place behind the words you've read, and it was the result of looking very, very hard. I'm assuming you don't have any 36 hour airplane journeys ahead of you, so if you want to see this I can only recommend being as focused and curious as you can, and ideally having some fun with it too.

So, let's look at thinking a bit. Here are some exercises for today. Go deep with them and let me know what you find.

1) You talked about thoughts of doubt having power. What power do thoughts have? What can they do? Watch them carefully, watch them as events or objects. Engaging with the content is not part of this exercise.

2) Imagine a mug. Imagine the way it looks, its colours. Imagine the way light plays off its surface. Image the texture under your thumbs and fingertips. Imagine how heavy it feels. Do this again - with something "imaginary" - a dragon, say, or whatever you like. Really "create" that object in your head. Are some of those thoughts more real than others? Do the thoughts themselves have any quality that tells you whether they refer to something "real"? Really look at the quality of the thoughts beyond their content.

3) Look at the ownership of thoughts. Maybe some seem to come and go like clouds, while others seem, real, true, important. Do the latter feel more like YOURS? What is the quality that makes some thoughts personal? Where is the "my-ness" in those thoughts? What is the difference between a thought you believe and one you don't?

If a question is in italics, please try to report back about what answers you found. If answers pop up quickly, write them down somewhere, set them aside, and look some more. Hone in on DE.

It's more important that you take your time with these than get them all done in one day, so do what you can and update me with as much as you can tomorrow.

With love,

Sage

[Soj]

Sage, hi!

Your best bet is to look deeply at your own experience.

OK, I agree. Thanks for sharing.

Exercise 1)
Yes, I was talking about the thoughts of doubt. It is the fact that they appear. And I can observe them. And if I accept them as true they somehow undermine my insights. They are somehow connected with the thought-idea that something big must happen with the realization. A metaphor comes ... You long to see the painting of Mona Lisa in the Louvre for so long and when you finally stand before it the mind says "Well, is this it? Really?" :)

I need some more time to work on other exercises. Will report asap.

Love, Soj.

[csm]

Hi Soj!

And if I accept them as true they somehow undermine my insights.

This is a great thing to look at! In direct experience, how does this happen? The doubt arises, you see it, then what? Where does it go, what does it interact with? How does the undermining happen? In DE, how are the insights experienced before, during and after they are undermined? Describe this process to me in detail, staying with DE.

I need some more time to work on other exercises. Will report asap.

Of course! Take all the time you need. There's no rush, just be sure to look steadily and report as much as you can every day. I'm throwing a lot at you all at once, but once the insights start to come you'll probably notice a bit of a domino effect occurring :)

Love, Sage

[Soj]

Sage, hi!

And if I accept them as true they somehow undermine my insights.

This is a great thing to look at! In direct experience, how does this happen? The doubt arises, you see it, then what? Where does it go, what does it interact with? How does the undermining happen?

This thought is forming in my mind (feels like in the right part of the head). If I somehow "ride" it, it carries a scent of incompleteness, maybe a lack of self-confidence, longing for the final truth. It just lingers around, pushing my mind into direction of "you think that's it? there must be something more, something is still missing ...". No particular bodily sensations associated with that thought, maybe just a slight tension in the chest. Also, it feels like my mind wants some external authority to confirm my insights and then it would be just fine. Yeah.

I can let this thought go, but it will revisit. Where will it come from? From don'tnowhere. Where will it go? To don'tnowhere. Just entering and leaving consciousness.

Soj

[Soj]

Sage, hi again!

2) Imagine a mug. Imagine the way it looks, its colours ...

Are some of those thoughts more real than others?

No - and yes. I mean thought is a thought. In this way thought of a mug is no more real than a thought of a dragon. And still there is a tendency to say that a thought of a mug is more real, because it exists in experienced physical reality. Strange :).

Do the thoughts themselves have any quality that tells you whether they refer to something "real"?

No, not thoughts themselves. But past experiences, memories associated with that thought. I imagined a mug that I have on my office desk. It exists. I have a memory of it. So, this thought feels more real. If I now imagine a mug that I do not know that exists, it still carries more "realness" to it than the dragon thought, because it might be manufactured someday. Now if I imagine a "sci-fi magical mug" the "realness" of it equals to the "realness" of the dragon thought.

Soj

[Soj]

Sage, me again! :)

3) Look at the ownership of thoughts. Maybe some seem to come and go like clouds, ...

Do the latter feel more like YOURS?

Yes, it is true. Some thoughts just pass like clouds in the sky. No problem with these thoughts. And some thoughts are more resilient, like clouds bumping into the mountain top, gathering around it, staying there, sometimes getting heavier and darker ... And the latter really feel more important, more "hungry" for my attention.

What is the quality that makes some thoughts personal?

Hmm, the quality? It feels like "personal" thoughts are more important for who I am as a person, for what I do as a person, for how I am supposed to act as a person (my and others' expectations) ... More sticky. More persistent. And many times more negative, fearful, doubtful ...

Where is the "my-ness" in those thoughts? What is the difference between a thought you believe and one you don't?

Hmm ... There really is no special "my-ness" in those thoughts as I see it. All thoughts are "mine", have "my-ness" to it. But, some thoughts are less and some are more important to me as a person. And I as a person (ego) somehow decide that some thoughts could be accepted and then dismissed with no real consequence and some must be dealt with again and again.

And also, yes, there are thoughts that I believe and one I don't. If someone would say something to me that would trigger a thought that I don't believe in, that thought would just drop, but if someone would say something that would trigger a thought that I believe in (past conditions), that thought would stay, evolve, feed itself, trigger emotions, even physical reactions ... Oh, yeah, and the same goes for the thoughts (re)visiting my mind without external influence. :)

Soj

[csm]

Great work Soj! :)

I don't have quite enough time to respond properly before work, so I'll get back to you on my lunch break later today.

If you happen to see this in the meantime and would like a little exercise, watch any memories that come up and see if they are any different from other thoughts.

Love, Sage

[csm]

Hi Soj!

This thought is forming in my mind (feels like in the right part of the head). If I somehow "ride" it, it carries a scent of incompleteness, maybe a lack of self-confidence, longing for the final truth. It just lingers around, pushing my mind into direction of "you think that's it? there must be something more, something is still missing ...". No particular bodily sensations associated with that thought, maybe just a slight tension in the chest. Also, it feels like my mind wants some external authority to confirm my insights and then it would be just fine. Yeah.

It sounds to me like what you’re describing is a series of thoughts – some perhaps more subtle than others. Not to put words in your mouth at all – but as an illustration of what I mean:

Thought #1: I don’t know if I’ve seen the truth
Thought # 2: My understanding seems incomplete
Thought # 3: I’m not getting this as well as I should
Thought # 4: I want a final truth
Thought # 5: You think that’s it?
Thought # 6: There must be more
Thought # 7: Something is missing
Thought # 8: If someone could confirm me I’d be satisfied.

No “ride” on a thought, no thought “pushing” your mind, just one thought appearing after another in awareness. In your DE can you see evidence for an explanation other than this?

Are some of those thoughts more real than others?

I mean thought is a thought. In this way thought of a mug is no more real than a thought of a dragon.

Good to notice!

And still there is a tendency to say that a thought of a mug is more real, because it exists in experienced physical reality. Strange :).

Is what you’re describing perhaps just another thought saying one thought is more real than another?

Do the thoughts themselves have any quality that tells you whether they refer to something "real"?

No, not thoughts themselves.

Good to notice!

But past experiences, memories associated with that thought. I imagined a mug that I have on my office desk. It exists. I have a memory of it. So, this thought feels more real.

In DE, what are memories? Are they fundamentally different from any other thought? Again, is the idea that a thought “feels” more real anything other than another thought? Remember, in DE “feeling” refers to bodily sensations. I’m guessing you can’t “feel” thoughts. Is it possible that the feeling you refer to just comes from familiarity? The more often you think a thought, the more familiar it gets and the more you take it for truth? Or is there some other quality you can point to in DE that explains what you're describing?

Yes, it is true. Some thoughts just pass like clouds in the sky. No problem with these thoughts. And some thoughts are more resilient, like clouds bumping into the mountain top, gathering around it, staying there, sometimes getting heavier and darker ... And the latter really feel more important, more "hungry" for my attention.

Can a thought be hungry? How is what are you describing actually experienced in DE?

It feels like "personal" thoughts are more important for who I am as a person, for what I do as a person, for how I am supposed to act as a person

some thoughts are less and some are more important to me as a person. And I as a person (ego) somehow decide that some thoughts could be accepted and then dismissed with no real consequence and some must be dealt with again and again.

Soon we’ll look more at this relationship between thoughts and the “person” relating to them. For now, just take another look at the “importance” and “personal”-ness of thoughts, in the same way you looked at the relative “realness” of thoughts. Content aside, are some thoughts more or less important or personal than others?

Love, Sage

[Soj]

Dear Sage, I will report to you asap. Some family issues today :). Soj

[csm]

Hi Soj, thanks for letting me know. I hope all is well :)

Sage

[Soj]

Hi, Sage!

Me and my family are fine. Thank you. :)

No “ride” on a thought, no thought “pushing” your mind, just one thought appearing after another in awareness. In your DE can you see evidence for an explanation other than this?

Yes, you are right. Just one thought after another. Happening so fast. There is no DE related to that thought stream.

And still there is a tendency to say that a thought of a mug is more real, because it exists in experienced physical reality. Strange :).

Is what you’re describing perhaps just another thought saying one thought is more real than another?

Hmm. How subtle. YES! A thought of comparison between a thought of a mug and a thought of a dragon comes. And then a thought (being a memory) of a mug on my office desk follows and then a thought that labels a thought of a mug more real than a thought of a dragon appears. Yes. And this "feeling of realness" is really nothing more than a a stream of thoughts being believed in.

Can a thought be hungry? How is what are you describing actually experienced in DE?

Is it so that DE excludes thoughts? Because, when you ask me to do an exercise like that and you say to describe DE, there are usually no bodily sensations to report. Maybe as a consequence of a thought being believed in, but not directly. And this leaves me describing thoughts ... :)

Content aside, are some thoughts more or less important or personal than others?

NO. A thought that a thought is important makes that thought important.

Love, Soj

[csm]

Hi Soj!

Hmm. How subtle. YES! A thought of comparison between a thought of a mug and a thought of a dragon comes. And then a thought (being a memory) of a mug on my office desk follows and then a thought that labels a thought of a mug more real than a thought of a dragon appears. Yes. And this "feeling of realness" is really nothing more than a a stream of thoughts being believed in.

Good noticing!

Is it so that DE excludes thoughts?

No, it includes awareness of thoughts as events - just not their content. Let me elaborate on that a bit. If I told you that your entire experience of life was limited to the five senses that would be false, agreed? Thoughts arise in awareness just like sounds do, so in that sense thinking is as real as hearing. You directly experience the thought - but not the content. The thought of the mug was real in your awareness, but you did not directly experience the mug, because the mug was conceptual. So when we talk about thought in DE we're not getting caught up in the content. We're getting familiar with the way thoughts arise and pass, the the way our bodies respond to them, and that sort of thing. In the process, our constant, lightening-fast conceptualization can start to break down and our relationship to thoughts can become much clearer.

So, when I ask

Can a thought be hungry? How is what are you describing actually experienced in DE?

I'm asking what that "hungry thought" quality is in your immediate awareness without conceptualization. Is the hunger in fact a quality of the thought? If not, where is it being projected from? How is it experienced? Is it somewhere in your body? Is it another thought? Is it a bit of both thought and sensation?

Content aside, are some thoughts more or less important or personal than others?

NO. A thought that a thought is important makes that thought important.

Does it?

Today I'd like you to look at the truthfulness of thoughts. Is there any thought that can verify itself? Is any thought proof of another thought's veracity?

Love, Sage

[Soj]

Dear Sage,

I'm asking what that "hungry thought" quality is in your immediate awareness without conceptualization. Is the hunger in fact a quality of the thought? If not, where is it being projected from? How is it experienced? Is it somewhere in your body? Is it another thought? Is it a bit of both thought and sensation?

By "hungry thought" I mean a thought that is more persistent, not so easy to let go. It is actualy a bundle of thoughts like "if you do or don't do (be or not be) this or that then something bad will happen". Believing in these thoughts leads to emotions (guilt, fear, irresponsibility, worry) and even to physical pain (tension in stomach). On the other end it is obvious that such thoughts arise and pass just as other "benign" thoughts do.

A thought that a thought is important makes that thought important.

Does it?

Yes ,I think it does. The content of the thought. Important, but not true.

Today I'd like you to look at the truthfulness of thoughts. Is there any thought that can verify itself? Is any thought proof of another thought's veracity?

This is tough. If I look at a cat now and I think "This is a cat.", I would say that this thought is true. OK. But then, a cat is a label for this kind of an animal, and an animal is a label for this kind of a living organism and so on and so on. Such a thought is "true" based on agreed concept of a cat. Then there are habitual thoughts, conditioned thoughts that are more easily recognised as untrue. And then there are thoughts I would have real problem questioning their truthfulness, like "I love my children."

Please, help me a little bit more on that.

Grateful Soj