open to awareness; please guide me

[moondog]

Hi Kathy,

No, not an entity. more of a felt sense of freedom, expansiveness, energetic openness - that sense of being within/part of a larger Presence.

I like that, well described.

Where do thoughts come from?

I don't know. Watching them, I notice they are observations, preferences, associations, old story lines. They are constant and often bounce like a pinball all over the place.

They sure do!

Are you in control of them?

apparently not. and, by the way, looking at the quality of these random thoughts, I wouldn't even want to claim control of the mundane, silly chatter in my mind.

Just me being ultra-picky again, but it's best to be certain here: when you say you're apparently not in control of 'your' thoughts, it could convey the meaning that you're not absolutely certain there's no self-entity churning them out. Please explain what you mean so that this it's crystal clear.

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

no. although there was some hesitation and I had to look harder. The idea of self wanted to stay. "

I like your observation that The idea of self wanted to stay, no doubt a lot more than the idea of table!

I feel grateful for this opportunity, the stepwise investigation, the necessary and helpful reminder to look in direct experience, and the realizations. I find myself throughout the day coming back to the questions and noticing what is occurring. It is clear to me that I go to thinking about things rather quickly, so I now remind myself to examine what I am experiencing in that moment rather than what I think about it. I am not looking ahead to the next step, rather just enjoying the exploration of the day trusting that you will guide me perfectly and all unfolds as it should. I feel deep gratitude for you, Pete, and the time and wisdom you so freely offer.

The process of cultivating the habit of coming back into the moment, into direct experience, is a mysterious one, as there's no one doing it (just as there's no self looking for a self/no self), and it's also a very good thing to do in the context of this investigation (as well as at any other time). I'm touched by your gratitude Kathy. For me, it's just a real pleasure and privilege to help you see through the illusion

There can be a tendency for some people to fixate on the body as there centre of self, so let's look at that:

Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Love, Pete

[kathy]

when you say you're apparently not in control of 'your' thoughts, it could convey the meaning that you're not absolutely certain there's no self-entity churning them out. Please explain what you mean so that this it's crystal clear.

when watching my thoughts, they just happen. I can't find anything behind them like a sense of self. that self idea is still hanging about, though I "think" it is a thought habit. As you said before, that intellectual thought about the self is just thought. I am willing to watch that fade away - that is, to let my historical view of having a self fade away as it isn't there each time I look for it.

Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Okay. Like learning how to respond to questions on an exam, I want to choose your second answer as I know that points to what we are moving toward. Back to direct experience. Thoughts happen and are interpreted within this body system - or are sensed within this idea of a container called body. I played with touch, movement, feeling air flow, and the complexity of movements happening in coordination while driving today. So, sensations are happening and translated or cataloged into thoughts/words/labels: "The air is cool" is a thought that accompanies the feeling on my hand in front of the air conditioning vent. I can say that "movement is happening; feeling texture or air flow is happening" and not be so focused on the body. Yet, I am not quite getting free enough from this body idea to see that it is just a thought label for sensations. I get the fixation on body as center of self. I can't find the self, but feel there is something to this body as an interpreter of the complexity of information in the world/experience. Can you help me with this?

vielen dank,
Kathy

[moondog]

Hi Kathy,

when watching my thoughts, they just happen. I can't find anything behind them like a sense of self. that self idea is still hanging about, though I "think" it is a thought habit. As you said before, that intellectual thought about the self is just thought. I am willing to watch that fade away - that is, to let my historical view of having a self fade away as it isn't there each time I look for it.

That's good to know. When the certain knowledge of there not being a self is always there available, as fact, whether I-thoughts continue to arise regularly or not, that knowing disables them, deprives them of their power to seduce.

I am not quite getting free enough from this body idea to see that it is just a thought label for sensations. I get the fixation on body as center of self. I can't find the self, but feel there is something to this body as an interpreter of the complexity of information in the world/experience. Can you help me with this?

So, first of all, clearly there's no you to be free of this body idea which, like any idea (including 'you') is thought-based. A fixation is like a belief, a seemingly resilient sequence of thoughts repeatedly reaffirmed by successive thoughts, so that you have this strong impression that what the thought says can't just be dismissed out of hand. In this case, the impression/vestigial belief is of the self either being, or being in, the body.

However, when you look at your direct experience, i.e. raw sense input before any conceptualisation - are you aware of anything, apart from how this feels right now? If so, please describe what that is in direct experience. Can you see an interpreter of the complexity of information in the world/experience, or is that just another idea deployed in a last gasp effort by the ego to persuade you that it's real? (Forgive the paradoxical metaphor, but hopefully, you know what I mean!)

If only sense arisings are experienced, that only leaves the concept or label that is subsequently layered onto this experience and called 'my body'.

That being so, can you now see that the "body" is just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Moving on a bit, can I ask you to just look from a different perspective; as always, from direct experience:

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks

What does?

What is aware?

Lots of love, Pete

[kathy]

So, first of all, clearly there's no you to be free of this body idea which, like any idea (including 'you') is thought-based.

great reminder - like a bucket of cold water. makes me wonder what the grumpy experience was - if no one there to be grumpy, what was it? just a grumpiness experienced?

when you look at your direct experience, i.e. raw sense input before any conceptualisation - are you aware of anything, apart from how this feels right now?

no

Can you see an interpreter of the complexity of information in the world/experience?

no

If only sense arisings are experienced, that only leaves the concept or label that is subsequently layered onto this experience and called 'my body'. That being so, can you now see that the "body" is just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

ok - body is label

...a belief, a seemingly resilient sequence of thoughts repeatedly reaffirmed by successive thoughts, so that you have this strong impression that what the thought says can't just be dismissed out of hand.

yes, well put - so seductive. I see this now.

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

wow. some masquerade all of these years. staying present now, just the feelings of fingers on keyboard, body in chair, warmth of room .... anything else I look at is history, story, belief, memory of the thought story. what remains? experience of sensations - hearing, seeing, feeling, touching. some sense of aliveness.

What experiences?
What thinks
What does?
What is aware?

no self ... something is streaming: energy, Life, Presence, some great mysterious Wonderful flow. feeling expansive, vital, alive, connected. can't name it - something is streaming.
those "seemingly resilient sequence of thoughts repeatedly reaffirmed by successive thoughts" want to pop in here, but instead, I'll just sign off.
Many thanks.
Love flows,
Kathy

[moondog]

Hi Kathy,

great reminder - like a bucket of cold water. makes me wonder what the grumpy experience was - if no one there to be grumpy, what was it? just a grumpiness experienced?

I'm glad that clarified things; buckets of cold water are all part of the service:) I think that grumpiness is just part of the 'human condition' like lots of other emotion/mood arisings. So long as you see them as just that, impersonal, like the weather, no problem. Often easier said than done, but the whole perspective on such mental events is transformed when self is seen through, as I'm sure you're noticing.

...a belief, a seemingly resilient sequence of thoughts repeatedly reaffirmed by successive thoughts, so that you have this strong impression that what the thought says can't just be dismissed out of hand.

yes, well put - so seductive. I see this now.

Great, you see that 'the body' is just another label.

wow. some masquerade all of these years. staying present now, just the feelings of fingers on keyboard, body in chair, warmth of room .... anything else I look at is history, story, belief, memory of the thought story. what remains? experience of sensations - hearing, seeing, feeling, touching. some sense of aliveness.

Yep, that's it.

no self ... something is streaming: energy, Life, Presence, some great mysterious Wonderful flow. feeling expansive, vital, alive, connected. can't name it - something is streaming.

It's great that you're experiencing this. It's this sense or feeling of aliveness underpinning everything 'we' experience that's what we are; awareness is all. It's worth remembering that those pesky I-thoughts just love to attach to this sense of aliveness, giving the sense of self its power, potency and seductivity.

We seem to have covered all the bases so I reckon it's now time for some sweep-up questions, just to make sure where you're at:

In direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It's a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. It doesn't look to me as if there will be much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Love, Pete

[kathy]

Hi Pete,
My response from yesterday disappeared. Too many thoughts anyway. So here we go today .. in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

no - looking and nothing is there

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

same - something is doing something, but it isn’t a self. more like life is happening. by habit, I want to look for a doer so I can grasp it - even if I start to “think” about the concept of life. Still thinking. Letting that go. By history, I know that whenever “I” try to figure out or control anything, I just feel tension and disruption of peace. When I “quit” and let life, God, or whatever label wants to be used, just flow ... then life flows as it should.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

no, following experience, interest, synchronicity, feelings points me toward what is next.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

no self thinking. just lots of thinking. I have been noticing my tendency to assume a self. For example, I am annoyed at something someone did. Upon noticing, I look for the self and can’t find it. Who is annoyed? When there isn’t anyone to hold on to, I dismiss the thought sequence.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

yes - feeling fingertips on smooth, contoured keyboard; hearing clicking of nails on keys.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

no self. senses perceive or translate information. I just saw an email with video clips of babies/toddlers experiencing things for the first time. The reactions were pure surprise, dislike, delight, etc. It led to lots of belly laughing yet reminded me that I was witnessing sensory reactions. I am sure the kids will hear stories that “they” didn’t like sour fruit, were surprised by the color and sound of tv, and were afraid of dark tunnels.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

okay - no self; the experience of seeing while in my kitchen was a big shift for me. When I realized there was no one seeing, that seeing an object could not be separated from the object being seen, the separation dissipated.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Every time I look for self, it is not there. That is clear. Often, I still operate as if on automatic pilot and catch my self idea in play (as per example above). I question it or look at it and return to no self. It feels different from learning Santa was a fabrication. Then, I was sad or disappointed, but I got it and there was no sneaky thinking that Santa was really real. With the self construct, I catch it time and time again. So, I get it yet I am not free of this ‘mental fabrication’ appearing in mind, although the practice of mindful awareness, noticing what is, and looking at illusion are helpful now. These practices pop the bubble and let me drop it.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

More like how to be now. It feels a bit weird. Up until now, I had a sense of self as an integral aspect of the vast Presence that is everything. It provided a framework within which to operate in this world. This model used the so called self - the sense of an individualized aspect of that Presence. Now, I still hold a deep knowing of the Presence, Awareness, Divine, or whatever label gets put on it. I don’t care about the label yet it is helpful to communicate about this complex stream of life, information, love that is. No doubt or mistrust in my experience of this vital Presence even if it can’t be described or understood. It just is. It is experienced. I don’t need to talk about it.

So, why no doubts, there is a question about how to be now. I had always included this individualized aspect of the all pervasive Divine Presence in my conversations, work with folks, and exploration of life as it applied to what they were bringing to the conversation. As I sit with people all day long now, I wonder ... what are we talking about?

I watched my conversations this week and felt confusion about this no self, no separation between two people/world. Before this exploration, I had a model of sorts - information streamed constantly during interactions and was perceived, responded to, shared in a complex and nonlinear fashion - didn’t matter how. I simply paid attention to what I noticed and followed it’s lead. That is how sessions or interactions with folks unfold - tuning in to informational streams on many levels without knowing how, but trusting the small bits I was aware of and following them. It appeared as if two separate people were holding a conversation about life’s challenges and joys. Now, that model has shaken and left a space. When I just noticed my experience,it didn't matter. When I thought about it .. I felt confused. Hmmmmn. I still acted the same way with others.

I am okay with that space and being confused. Not trying to fill it in. Still finding thoughts surface a lot about self or separated selves. That is dissipating now.

[moondog]

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for your replies. I really enjoyed your detailed comments and observations on how life is for you now, having seen that there's no you.

Upon noticing, I look for the self and can’t find it. Who is annoyed? When there isn’t anyone to hold on to, I dismiss the thought sequence.

Clearly, there's no self, no you, so how do 'you' dismiss the thought sequence? What really happens?

Every time I look for self, it is not there.

Good, because that's it, simply that.

So, why no doubts, there is a question about how to be now. I had always included this individualized aspect of the all pervasive Divine Presence in my conversations, work with folks, and exploration of life as it applied to what they were bringing to the conversation. As I sit with people all day long now, I wonder ... what are we talking about?

Should that be 'So while no doubts, there is a question about how to be now'?

If and when you join the Facebook 'aftercare' groups, there will be opportunities for really good, open, friendly exchanges with others who have gone through, some very recently, and that can be very helpful, if that's what you want.

Now, that model has shaken and left a space. When I just noticed my experience,it didn't matter. When I thought about it .. I felt confused. Hmmmmn. I still acted the same way with others.

That's ok, my behaviour didn't really change much towards others (as far as I could tell anyway). Life goes on, 'you' still have the same characteristics and personality and have to relate to 'others'. But you now know there's no chief executive inside, calling the shots and demanding your attention and energy. And that's wonderfully freeing, allowing for an easier, more giving 'outlook on life'.

So, although I'd like you to answer the two questions above, just for the sake of completeness really, I've got no doubts that you've seen through the illusion of a separate self and, more importantly, you have said you have no doubts either. That being so, here are the final questions. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site if you want that. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen?

Please give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Lots of love, Pete

[kathy]

Clearly, there's no self, no you, so how do 'you' dismiss the thought sequence? What really happens?

just love those clarifying buckets of water, Pete! so what really happens? the question arises - who is annoyed? looking - no one is here to be annoyed, so the habitual thought pattern loses it’s momentum, attention moves back into breath and notices what is happening.

Should that be 'So while no doubts, there is a question about how to be now'?

yes ... "while" not "why"

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

no - never was. still weird as it was such a given that Kathy was a self rather than a fabricated storyline that felt so real. Weird but okay to see through illusion.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Before we are even born, the labels and stories begin. In watching the experience of those babies in that funny email video I referenced yesterday, watching my 3 month old neighbor and family at christening yesterday, and reflecting on my own kid’s development, I was able to see how we respond to infants with labels of name, a gender, and the earliest behavioral programming. By the time the child processes language, the stories of their personality, likes/dislikes, similarities/differences to family members, little legacies, etc. are already piled high. Moving away from direct experience, the teaching of developing children at home, school, community, media, etc. layers complex spirals of thought so that they are well wrapped and seemingly so very real. I think back when my little one was an hour old and brought to me in the hospital. “She has got a temper” said the nurse. “Really?,” I replied. “Seems to me she might be adjusting to her recent journey.” Such silly labeling, I “thought” as I inadvertently joined in with the story telling about her little “self.” Someone proclaimed, “she is a nosy little one” at 3 days of age. “Oh no - she is a curious little one,” I replied. Ha. I look now and see it was just a shifting of the mantel of layers of story upon a precious sensory perceiver. I just liked my story of her better and felt I was doing her a good service in relabeling her crying or her looking. [Noise was happening. Seeing was happening. Life was happening .... and always was.]

My sense of self - resilient and vulnerable - was supported throughout a life time of story telling by a culture of well meaning people who didn’t see through the illusory of the never ending thought story of mind. Whether a fairy tale or a scary tale, it was still mind chatter and it seemed so solid that it was worth defending, projecting, or celebrating depending upon the circumstance.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Feels okay. In the beginning, I felt confused. When I had that break through seeing in my kitchen, I felt a shock and sadness. Oh my god, no self .... as tears came. Bit grumpy even. Then okay again. Just weather patterns across the sky. The commitment continued to just show up online every day and experience what was pointed to. Last few days I’ve been aware of being okay, being confused, feeling vastly expanded, deeply appreciative, and engaging the habit of looking or noticing what was present. Living in the flow. All in all, so much of it is the same as what was experienced before I saw there was no self. so, truly, life goes on. all is well. not much hoopla here.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

love the bucket of cold water statements; so helpful - like:
"seemingly resilient sequence of thoughts repeatedly reaffirmed by successive thoughts so that you have this strong impression that what the thought says can't just be dismissed out of hand." yup. experienced that a lot. this statement helped me see mind as mind.
“Clearly, there's no self, no you, so how do 'you' dismiss the thought sequence? What really happens?” right?! love those reminders.

I do experience these habitual thought sequences arising while reacting to interactions with people. When noticed, the thoughts are questioned. Feels like life arising with this opportunity. Like I said before, when Santa was seen through, I was sad but story was done. As self was seen through, I was sad, confused, fine .... and ‘self thought story’ had more resilient pop ups than Santa. The life time habit of self wasn’t released the same way as Santa, yet the habitual resurfacing of this story is viewed as the tricky mind wanted to reattach. This reattachment isn’t happening and there is not much concern about it - seems like it is just a process.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?
Please give examples from your experience.

Feels like it is perception of life happening and not any true decisions or control. When experiencing life flowing most freely, the magic of perceiving pieces of a broader mosaic that comes together in surprising ways reinforces that there is participation without decision or control. There are some habits of thinking I have control or have to make decisions, yet they are lessening. I have a lot of direct experience of this participatory flow and it feels authentic.
Here is an example from today:
Today, as I got ready to head to church, the thought/vision of walking in a nearby park with my friend popped in. Moving my phone, I saw she had texted in that moment suggesting a walk in that same park. Of course. Exploring a new path and sharing our liberation unleashed experience (she led me here and I shared for the first time I had gone through this with you), we experienced all sorts of delightful creatures, nature’s magic, kindness, and companionship. Approaching the lake, we found out it was a “float festival” (who knew such things existed?) and spent time canoeing around a lake marveling at how life shows up, witnessing patterns of color, light, sound, depth perception. When she asked how I knew it was occurring, I shared my direct experience. It was a no brainer. The parking lot was closed. Lots of canoes driving past us. Then, a sign saying Float Festival. It isn’t rocket science - Just paying attention and flowing within life. Seems a good example of what occurs within my experience most days.

Anything to add?

Yesterday, I was wondering how to show up in life with this new perspective since I spend time talking about self stories all the time with people in transition and expansion. Today, there isn’t the same sense of wondering or confusion. Just show up and experience life as it unfolds. Life will take care of itself. Also, experienced a letting go of looking too closely at how to use language. That is just a mind trick if I am hesitating to say “I, you, me” and spending time watching constructs used. I live in a world of communicating people. It is important for me to engage my direct experience as I move through the world - that is an experience which will continue. If I spend time looking too closely at language, it is just a distraction. Letting that go and trusting when language usage is important, it will be attended to with care.

I am deeply grateful within this experience with “Pete” and for the consistency with which these questions clarified, guided, and empowered awareness for ‘me.’ The kindness, generosity, and attention to nuance of my experience and pesky thought insertions were felt within each exchange. To be the recipient of such generosity has helped me feel even more deeply committed to the importance of freely offering reverent service which has been such a large part of my life experience. Deep bow and big hug.

Love flows,
Kathy

[moondog]

Hi Kathy,

Thank you for your lovely replies. I found them really inspiring and heartwarming. I've forwarded them to the other guides. It's quite common for them to put forward questions or points for absolute clarification.

I'll let you know as soon as I've heard from them; it sometimes takes a day or so. It's probably best to keep checking now and again, if at all possible, to keep things moving.

Lots of love, Pete

[moondog]

Hi Kathy,

I've now heard from the guides and they are satisfied and happy that you have seen that there is no self.

I'll get on with getting you turned blue. I'll let LU admin have your FB name and they will be in touch with you soon with various info, links etc. for the various groups.

This process of helping you to see that there is no self has been a real pleasure for me, very enjoyable. I'm so pleased that we worked so well together and that it was such a success for 'you'. Go well!

Love, Pete

[kathy]

Thanks, Pete. "Turning blue" That is so funny- being raised in a world and profession where "blue" is not so much fun. Looking forward to it all. Lucky visitors who get to travel with you. Deep appreciation. Be well. Love, Kathy