The Gate

Ok, thanks. Now I'm going to zoom in and become a question machine. Let's unravel this. The confusion is fundamentally linguistic in nature. That's all.

What is threatened by this investigation is my identity

What does it mean to say that something is YOUR identity? What is an identity and what is the YOU that it belongs to?

all I feel identified with

What is identification? What does "feeling identified" with something mean? How does it work. What is the YOU that is or isn't identified with something?

what would I be without an identity, a self.

So YOU have a self?
Is there a difference between YOU and a self?
What existed first, YOU or the self?
How did YOU get a self?

Feels as if I could die, dissapear, vanish, it sounds terrifying. I do feel that this needs protection.

Yes, it's frightening.
At least, it appears to be.
This inquiry is an invitation to look, for yourself, once and for all, if this deep fear, this need to protect is actually justified. And we do this by directly facing the fear, not flinching and looking at that which appears to be protected. What is behind the fear? What, actually, is being shielded here? What is the YOU that it feels might die...? Look....!

If I do this it is totally unconscious and I should know it, so please point it out anytime you consider I may be doing that.

Don't worry, I will!
You're doing great, just keep the investigation going.

I am divided, I want so much that this investigation succeeds and at the same time I want it to fail because I am affraid. I want two goals that are totally opposite.

This is also perfectly normal. The moment your desire to finally see the truth is stronger than anything else is the moment this will become clear.

How could it be possible that I don't exist at all? My life doesn't make sense if I don't exist at all. I have been alive for 29 years, so I must exist. And many things have happened in my life.

You see the conceptual circle here? I am alive, therefore I must exist. What is it that is living this life? How is this life YOUR life? Go beyond language and look, directly, at what is literally going on, right now!

I have to exist for my life to happen.

Is that really true?
What does it mean to say "I exist"?
If there is an I that exists, show it to me. Point me to it. Bring it to the table. Come on! Show it. Prove it.

What is YOU?

Hi Damon, you did become a question machine. I am finally back with answers to them.

What does it mean to say that something is YOUR identity? What is an identity and what is the YOU that it belongs to?

Not exactly like that, I mean that the identity and the I are the same thing.

What is identification? What does "feeling identified" with something mean? How does it work. What is the YOU that is or isn't identified with something?

identification means that things in life, character, likes and dislikes our past, story, experiences, etc. define this "you".

So YOU have a self?
Is there a difference between YOU and a self?
What existed first, YOU or the self?
How did YOU get a self?

Not exactly, I don't think there is a difference between both. Did I get a self? How can I get a self, that sounds redundant and really strange! the answer is no.

What is behind the fear? What, actually, is being shielded here? What is the YOU that it feels might die...? Look....!

The fear of loosing the ground under my feet. What feels that might die? I don't know how to answer that, and even when I don't know what it is it feels as it is something really important that is now in a vulnerable position.

This is also perfectly normal. The moment your desire to finally see the truth is stronger than anything else is the moment this will become clear.

You see the conceptual circle here? I am alive, therefore I must exist. What is it that is living this life? How is this life YOUR life? Go beyond language and look, directly, at what is literally going on, right now!

I have problems to notice this conceptual circle, I see it as one same thing: being alive and that I exist. It is a fact that I am alive. How is this life my life? well, it isn't someone else's life. The other peope are living their own lifes too, the things that happened to me are my experience, they are different from the experience of someone else. How can we all have different experiences if there was no "I"? We would not be able to tell the difference between "me" and "the others".

when I wrote that I have to exist for my life to happen. you asked...

Is that really true?
What does it mean to say "I exist"?
If there is an I that exists, show it to me. Point me to it. Bring it to the table. Come on! Show it. Prove it.

I exist, means I am alive. I don't have any idea what to write here or how to point this I.This is very difficult to answer. The more we advance the more difficult to answer the questions. It's becoming more difficult to keep all this answers glued toghether.

It's becoming more difficult to keep all this answers glued toghether.

Isn't it? Now why is that? Could it be because the view from which they are assembled is fundamentally confused? I'm really just asking you one question, over and over, again and again.

It is a fact that I am alive. How is this life my life? well, it isn't someone else's life. The other peope are living their own lifes too, the things that happened to me are my experience, they are different from the experience of someone else. How can we all have different experiences if there was no "I"? We would not be able to tell the difference between "me" and "the others".

You remember how I asked you to avoid speculation?
This is a good moment to remember that!

Right now, what is YOUR life, and what is the OTHER's?
What separates the two?

How many selves are there here?

When you say "I exist" what does the word "I" refer to?
In actual, concrete and direct experience what is "I"?

I'm on a short break for a day or three, will be back after that!

Good luck and all the best...

Hi Damon, enjoy your vacation days and rest, sometimes they are necesary. No problem, I have no hurry in this. Write a post here when you return and we will continue.

Hi Damon,
This little break from posting was good, I had time to think about the questions with calm and time to answer, I will write a longer post today. Something is happening, the fear I told you about is slowly fading. Curiosity is winning over fear. But I am still confused.

It's becoming more difficult to keep all this answers glued toghether.

Isn't it? Now why is that? Could it be because the view from which they are assembled is fundamentally confused? I'm really just asking you one question, over and over, again and again.

Yes, before all this concepts fitted perfectly, now when you ask me to get closer and observe I see things that don't fit as nicely as I thought they did. So it is more difficult to answer. Sometimes it seems that some answers I say contradict other answers. 2 examples of pieces that are not fitting. When you asked if we control our thoughts I looked and couldn't find that I had any control over them in any way. You asked If "I" had a self and it sounded very redundand so I said no.

Right now, what is YOUR life, and what is the OTHER's?
What separates the two?

It is undeniable that life exists. But something that divides us is that we are in separate bodies. Also that I am not aware what the other person is doing now unless this person tells me.

How many selves are there here?

That is a tricky question, my first answer would be yes. But this made me remember something that came to my mind about a year ago. When does a baby becomes a separarate being from the mother? In the womb? when the baby is born? Where exactly is the limit between her "self" and the baby's "self"? Because during 9 months their bodies are toghether, physically linked. Where is the limit? In examples like this it is not so easy to know the answer. I was wondering that again now.

This makes me think that the answer to my last question is not as simple as it looks.

When you say "I exist" what does the word "I" refer to?

I live, I am alive. As I said in the last post: I have problems to notice this conceptual circle you mentioned in an earlier post.

In actual, concrete and direct experience what is "I"?

I keep looking at my direct experiece trying to find it. this is not an easy one.

Break took a little longer than planned, but I'm back...

I had time to think about the questions with calm and time to answer

Glad to hear you've put the last couple of days to good use.

On the other hand, thinking about this is useless.
Utterly and completely useless.

Awakening does not come as a thought, or as a particular formation of thoughts or combination of thoughts or thought sequence.

It's not a matter of getting the "right" thoughts. Of somehow matching up thought with reality.

It's simpler and deeper than that.

Before thought.

Something is happening, the fear I told you about is slowly fading. Curiosity is winning over fear.

Great! Keep going. Keep looking.

But I am still confused.

Of course you are. As long as you keep seeing this as an intellectual puzzle to be solved, you will be confused.
This is not difficult or complex. It is very simple.

It's not a puzzle or an equation, just a matter of finally, once and for all, looking directly at reality. At the place where a self is assumed to be. That's all. Two things are needed: courage and honesty.

It is undeniable that life exists.

Ok. Sure. Something exists. Or seems to exist.
Something is going on, at the very least.

But something that divides us is that we are in separate bodies.

Whoah... whoah... wait! Too fast.
There's so many unchecked assumptions in this simple sentence alone. Check it first.

"We are in separate bodies".

So: I am in this body and you are in that body, right?

So what is the YOU that is in a body? Where in the body is that you exactly? Where in this body is my me?
Where is the separation between your body and my body? Where is, in fact the separation between your body and everything that is not your body? How is that border known exactly? How is it experienced?

Also that I am not aware what the other person is doing now unless this person tells me.

Stop! Same story... so many assumptions.

The key here is to check your unchecked assumptions.

All of it is glued together by unexamined assumptions about the way things really are.

Before you assume the existence of "the other person", why not check out the other end of the assumed spectrum- this person- YOU? Does that person even exist?

That is a tricky question, my first answer would be yes

Hmm.. please check the question again- it's not a yes/no question.
But your follow-up questions are valid. Ponder them again, deeply. They are the key to this.

You're doing great!!!

Hi Damon,

Glad to see that you are back. some error happened with the notifications that are sent to the e-mail when you suscribe to a topic, so I didn't notice you answered until now. Now I just want liberation to occur, let's do this!!!

Of course you are. As long as you keep seeing this as an intellectual puzzle to be solved, you will be confused.

Today something happened, I was riding my bycicle when suddenly I felt comfortable in this confusion. I started laughing. It was a liberating experience.

So: I am in this body and you are in that body, right?

Or at least that is what our senses tell us.

So what is the YOU that is in a body? Where in the body is that you exactly? Where in this body is my me?
Where is the separation between your body and my body? Where is, in fact the separation between your body and everything that is not your body? How is that border known exactly? How is it experienced?

If I close my eyes for a long time the border will not be that clear. One day I went to an activity to be sensibilized about how blind people lives, we had to be blindfolded all morning, I felt as if borders have faded.
Another day I was in a prehispanic ritual called temazcal, there I lost the limit of myself with others. I had some other similar experiences, but when these short moments end I am feeling separation again, I am being honest and it is a fact I feel this way. Help me to see this so clearly that I won't be trapped once and again!!

How many selves are there here?

That is a tricky question, my first answer would be yes. But this made me remember something that came to my mind about a year ago. When does a baby becomes a separarate being from the mother? In the womb? when the baby is born? Where exactly is the limit between her "self" and the baby's "self"? Because during 9 months their bodies are toghether, physically linked. Where is the limit? In examples like this it is not so easy to know the answer. I was wondering that again now.

Does the baby's body and being start? in the umbilical cord? at which segment of the cord? where does this "new self" comes from? as a division of the mother's "self"? Then what if the woman is pregnant with twins, are there 3 "selves" in the same body? when does each twin gets a seperate self each? Can we count the number of "selves"?

Also another one: cells, do each cell have it's own "self" if we look at them closely there is a physical distance between them and still we don't say they are little separated beings, many cells form a whole body, could we be just the same as cells?. This questions sounds kind of weird, something is not fitting with my answer about many separate beings in separate bodies. I mind only making a division wherever it wants saying from this point to this point we have a "self" and from this point to this other point we can find another "self" separated from the first one. Could the mind make this division in a different point? It could say: yes, cells are little different "selves" and then believe it. There is something here that definitely doesn't fit.

sorry, found some typing mistakes:
Where does the baby's body and being start?

Is mind only making a division wherever it wants saying from this point to this point we have a "self" and from this point to this other point we can find another "self" separated from the first one.

Glad to see that you are back. some error happened with the notifications that are sent to the e-mail when you suscribe to a topic, so I didn't notice you answered until now.

Hi Diana, good to hear from you. Those kind of technology glitches happen sometimes... glad to see you're still working on this!

Now I just want liberation to occur, let's do this!!!

Allright!

Today something happened, I was riding my bycicle when suddenly I felt comfortable in this confusion. I started laughing. It was a liberating experience.

Interesting... that means something is definately shifting.

So: I am in this body and you are in that body, right?

Or at least that is what our senses tell us.

Is that really true though? Consult the senses again. All of them.
Describe to me, in detail, which of the senses shows you that this is the case, that there is a ME over here in this body and a YOU over there in that body.

Are you seeing, feeling, smelling, hearing or sensing any selves right now?

If I close my eyes for a long time the border will not be that clear.

Yes, with the eyes closed the usual visual field that we think suggests separate entities no longer operates.
But take a step back and keep the eyes open. Look around the field of perception. Allow the breath to slow down, to settle. Allow thoughts to come and go for a bit. Not rejecting, not going along with any of them. Simply enjoy the experience of vision for a moment. Can you find any borders at all? What do borders consist of, visually? Describe them? Anything you might consider a border, a separation- what does it show up as?

I am feeling separation again, I am being honest and it is a fact I feel this way. Help me to see this so clearly that I won't be trapped once and again!!

Are you ever actually feeling separation? Describe it? What is actually being felt?
Are you ever actually trapped? How does that work? Who is trapped in what and where?

There is something here that definitely doesn't fit.

Yes... yes! You're starting to see the absurdity of common sense assertions about the nature of reality. Keep asking those questions and simply look at what is right in front of you.

You're already seeing it. You've always already seen it. It was simply overlooked...

So: I am in this body and you are in that body, right?

Or at least that is what our senses tell us.

Is that really true though? Consult the senses again. All of them.
Describe to me, in detail, which of the senses shows you that this is the case, that there is a ME over here in this body and a YOU over there in that body.

Specially the vision, because it shows sepatate bodies moving, or so it seems. It show us physical distance between them. In hearing it is more abstract, if you are blindfolded and you hear voices of other people, they don't give you a so strong sense of separation as sight. Same with smell, it is more abstract. You don't percieve a defined solid barrier that limits the smell or sound you percieve. So sight is the sense that give the more convincing feeling of separation.

Yes, with the eyes closed the usual visual field that we think suggests separate entities no longer operates.
But take a step back and keep the eyes open. Look around the field of perception. Allow the breath to slow down, to settle. Allow thoughts to come and go for a bit. Not rejecting, not going along with any of them. Simply enjoy the experience of vision for a moment. Can you find any borders at all? What do borders consist of, visually? Describe them? Anything you might consider a border, a separation- what does it show up as?

One day I was sitting in a park, my mind was empty and my eyes open. Suddenly I felt as if all I saw around me was linked. The trees, the people passing by, the animals. As if everything was linked and coordinated as a dance or a choreography. At this moments I couldn't feel or experience the borders even with my open eyes.

Are you ever actually feeling separation? Describe it? What is actually being felt?

Yes, I have experienced moments where these limits are not thet clear, but most of the time I can't feel that way and go back to noticing the differences and thinking there is a you and a me, inside and outside. Even when intellectually I could affirm separation is an illusion, so there is a contradiction there.

Are you ever actually trapped? How does that work? Who is trapped in what and where?

Yes, I feel overwhelmed by thoughts, by overthinking, concepts and ideas. I feel that mind is the trap. Now I am getting contradictory messages about what is real and what is not.

Yes... yes! You're starting to see the absurdity of common sense assertions about the nature of reality. Keep asking those questions and simply look at what is right in front of you.

It is easier to see this absurdity in the questions I wrote before, because in those cases the limits are not clear. But the thing about cells calls my attention again. If you look in the microscope someone could say: look our body is made of small "beings", they act independently. Look, they are separated by distance and perform different tasks in the body. Obviously we don't say that, we say they are part of a body.

But we see a group of people and say it is made of many different selves. Are we the same as these cells or something different? what are we?

You're already seeing it. You've always already seen it. It was simply overlooked...

In short and fading glimpses, could it ever be more than that?

Specially the vision, because it shows sepatate bodies moving, or so it seems. It show us physical distance between them.

Look again! What is ACTUALLY seen? Do you see distance between separate bodies? In the seeing, what is actually seen?

Yes, I have experienced moments where these limits are not thet clear, but most of the time I can't feel that way and go back to noticing the differences and thinking there is a you and a me, inside and outside. Even when intellectually I could affirm separation is an illusion, so there is a contradiction there.

No contradiction.

What is the nature of an illusion?
Does the illusion disappear once you see it is an illusion?
How do illusions work?

It seems to me you are looking for a special experience,
A special state of consciousness. Illumination, applause, rapture.

What are you waiting for to happen?

In short and fading glimpses, could it ever be more than that?

No, no... wait. I mean it literally:

YOU ARE ALREADY SEEING THIS.
YOU'VE ALWAYS ALREADY SEEN THIS.

This.
Is.
It.
This!

Specially the vision, because it shows sepatate bodies moving, or so it seems. It show us physical distance between them.

Look again! What is ACTUALLY seen? Do you see distance between separate bodies? In the seeing, what is actually seen?

Even with my eyes open I once saw the links between this things that look as separate, the dance, the choreography. A flow of life. Then why I still deny it? This sounds like madness, as a childish game. Is this another defense mechanism? But why defending an illusion when you have seen through it?

What is the nature of an illusion?

An illusion tricks you into believing something that is not there.

Does the illusion disappear once you see it is an illusion?

No, it stays there.

How do illusions work?

It will be persistent, even when you are certain it is an illusion, as a optical illusion with mirrors, a mirage in the desert or a hologram. But reality is always there underneath, no matter how powerful the illusion is.

It seems to me you are looking for a special experience,
A special state of consciousness. Illumination, applause, rapture.
What are you waiting for to happen?

These 2 phrases just blew my mind. I notice that I was waiting for something to happen.
I am not sure what was I waiting for, but I start to see the nonsense in this waiting, why should I wait for something to happen? I complain that I had only glimpses, what else was I expecting? is it even necesary (or possible) that the illusion dissapears permanently?

Yes, I have experienced moments where these limits are not thet clear, but most of the time I can't feel that way and go back to noticing the differences and thinking there is a you and a me, inside and outside. Even when intellectually I could affirm separation is an illusion, so there is a contradiction there.

No contradiction.

Are you ever actually trapped? How does that work? Who is trapped in what and where?

This are interesting points, I really had to go back to this one. If a very realistic hologram cage is created around you and you notice it is a hologram, are you caged?

No, no... wait. I mean it literally:

YOU ARE ALREADY SEEING THIS.
YOU'VE ALWAYS ALREADY SEEN THIS.

This.
Is.
It.
This!

Oooohhh! If the other questions blew my mind this was the reason I didn't answer yesterday. Reading this last lines was a huge impact. I am still trying to digest all the impact of reading this last post from you. I can't put the pieces together yet, but I can't put them back the way they were before either. Some things are one small push from falling apart. I see big cracks in something that used to look so solid, that seemed to fit. It is confusing.

These 2 phrases just blew my mind. I notice that I was waiting for something to happen.

Yes! Can you see how all these stories and expectations can get in the way of seeing what is actually already the case? Of what has always already been the case?

This are interesting points, I really had to go back to this one. If a very realistic hologram cage is created around you and you notice it is a hologram, are you caged?

That's an apt metaphor to describe this.

Like bondage, liberation is an illusion as well, but you have to become liberated to see that.

;-)

Reading this last lines was a huge impact. I am still trying to digest all the impact of reading this last post from you.

Then read them again and ponder it some more. Could it be true?

Some things are one small push from falling apart. I see big cracks in something that used to look so solid, that seemed to fit. It is confusing.

Yes, you're one step across, so to speak.

Now jump!

Is there a YOU at all?

Yes! Can you see how all these stories and expectations can get in the way of seeing what is actually already the case? Of what has always already been the case?

Yes, they get in the way I haven't noticed before that I had expectations about this, maybe I thought that suddenly all the illusion will fade or become transparent forever, since I got only glimpses I may have dismissed them as false or labeled them as "not the thing I was looking for" It sounds strange and now it is kind of nonsense that I was actually expecting for some big thing to happen.

Like bondage, liberation is an illusion as wel

passing through the gateless gate, right?

Now jump!

Is there a YOU at all?

I searched, I looked everywhere, tried to find it, I had a new glimpse after reading your post of november 11th, it was just as the one I had in the park, the choreography, the dance, and even when I could sense life in an intense way I couldn't find the "I" who is supposed to be living separate from the rest. Only life.

Every day I kept looking. And I found it... But only in one place... Thoughts

Words, concepts, thoughts... but nothing else. A practical invention that was useful, a communication tool. Then the human at some point started believing this little word was "our identity" ? We locked ourselves in this little concept box. We believed that the concept was reality. We even buidt a strong defense mechanism around nothing. What for?

Something else has been gradually happening. The ideas that used to inflate or hurt "my ego" are becoming weaker. As if I didn't believe them fully. For example, a thought arises: "I am great" or "I am stupid" but I am not totally believing that, or the thought fall appart as soon as it appears.

So, Is there an I at all??

NO!

So, Is there an I at all??

NO!

Hehe, interesting to see the change in tone in your writing. Wonderful.

Seems to me you're ready to take a look at our "final" questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?