The Gate

Hi nev,

I can experience sound(s) only, nothing more.

Is there really an experiencer, an 'I', or is there just experience?

For now I see that the center is me, my intention to perceive. But when I try to feel that "me-center", ...

Take a really good look at this - if the centre IS 'me', what is it that is trying to feel the 'me center'?

it's some strange combination of many "me": my own physical image, my focused attention, my eyes, or different self-representaions of myself, also like images, or just "feelings" about what I should be

These are thoughts, images, feelings - Is there really an entity called 'nev' seperate from all these things, or is nev just a label for these collective experiences?

Paulo.

Hi Paulo,

Is there really an experiencer, an 'I', or is there just experience?

There is just experience. And a thought that there must be an experiencer. :)

Take a really good look at this - if the centre IS 'me', what is it that is trying to feel the 'me center'?

Ok... Not easy anymore to use regular words, to use language...

When the Center-me is seen, it stops to be a center. Then something else(="the real Me") takes a step back, and is trying to become on its turn a new center of perception, by looking on "the center". And that something "is the actual center" UNTIL it tries to see itself, then a new actual center is formed and... But what is trying to see all those centers and see “itself” is not “someone”, it's not an entity of some kind – what is causing this action of seeing the self, it's the Will to see, the Intention to do something, and it's saying “I must see, I want to see, I have to see, I will see”. It's a thought.

These are thoughts, images, feelings - Is there really an entity called 'nev' seperate from all these things, or is nev just a label for these collective experiences?

It's a label.

Nev

Hi Nev,

Nicely done, you can probably see now why 'looking' rather than 'thinking about' the self is the way to see through the illusion. The 'I' is in my experience too, just a thought, a concept, part of the experience - there is nothing seperate there at all.

There is just experience. And a thought that there must be an experiencer. :)

Indeed, in reality there is only experience. The body, thoughts, feelings - these are all just experiences, and there is no 'I' outside that experience, sitting on a cloud somewhere watching it all happen.

When the Center-me is seen, it stops to be a center. Then something else(="the real Me") takes a step back, and is trying to become on its turn a new center of perception, by looking on "the center". And that something "is the actual center" UNTIL it tries to see itself, then a new actual center is formed and...

I can certainly relate to what you write - It just goes on and on and on ... just when you think you've found the center you realise you're actually outside it, observing it ... and when you try to find what's observing it, you realise you're outside THAT too!

I hope you brought this 'looking for the centre' to it's ultimate conclusion. This is actually an insight found in alchemy, repesented by a snake trying to eat it's own tail. Can the head eat itself? -

It's a label.

In my experience also the self, 'I', 'me' are also labels for ongoing experiences, and it's good to remember - the label is not the experience it labels.

From where you are now in the process consider the following statement -

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Have a good look everywhere and anywhere for anything that exists outside the moment - I'll give you a prize if you can find anything at all. Share what you DO find in the moment as you go about your daily business.

Well done nev, and thank you for sticking with the process and giving it a good honest go.

Paulo :)

Hi Paulo,
Thank you, and all of you here:) that share your experience and your energy/time with us...

I hope you brought this 'looking for the centre' to it's ultimate conclusion. This is actually an insight found in alchemy, repesented by a snake trying to eat it's own tail. Can the head eat itself?

Yes, that's Ouroboros. For me it is a symbol of the infinite, the beginning and the end reunited in one; never saw it that way though...:)

Nothing exists outside the present moment.
Have a good look everywhere and anywhere for anything that exists outside the moment - I'll give you a prize if you can find anything at all.

There is nothing outside the present moment, yes. Even when recalling past events - they are experienced here and now. Even imagined events can exist only in the moment when experienced. And our projects for the future – they are conceived and recalled IN the present moment. They may refer to other moments. What can ruin the clear perception of the moment are thoughts about what it was or what can be. But they are also can be experienced in the present moment. (No prize at all now?;)

Share what you DO find in the moment as you go about your daily business.

What exists in the moment are experiences. When not interpreted, the experiences have much more depth. And feeling this depth is like re-connecting again with something lost. There is an emotion there.

BUT...
When I go for my everyday activities my consciousness can not stay fixed on the present moment – which becomes so fast a past moment AND, for a while, I keep thinking about seeing it as if it is still a present one. Or as it is yet a future one. Absorbed in some thought-trance. Sure I tried to experience the thoughts themselves but they are so many.

Nev

Hi nev,

There is nothing outside the present moment, yes. Even when recalling past events - they are experienced here and now. Even imagined events can exist only in the moment when experienced. And our projects for the future – they are conceived and recalled IN the present moment. They may refer to other moments. What can ruin the clear perception of the moment are thoughts about what it was or what can be. But they are also can be experienced in the present moment. (No prize at all now?;)

Couldn't have said it better myself. And yes, the prize is still safe :)

BUT...
When I go for my everyday activities my consciousness can not stay fixed on the present moment – which becomes so fast a past moment AND, for a while, I keep thinking about seeing it as if it is still a present one. Or as it is yet a future one. Absorbed in some thought-trance. Sure I tried to experience the thoughts themselves but they are so many.

Sure, this is absolutely fine, awareness will often focus 'in' thought, believing it to be real. But the thoughts will always arise, stay awhile, and then fade away. And when you continue to LOOK at them, and question the belief they are real - you will see them for what they are - what's real remains, what's illusion disappears. Over time you will see thoughts for what they are and become less involved in them, as you understand that the character in the thought is not real, only an illusion.

I like to think of it as being immersed in virtual reality, and just as long as you see if for what it is when awareness has returned to direct experience, it's all good. Remember, thought is very useful for planning - there isn't a bridge, or a building, or medical cure, that didn't start it's life in thought. For me, it's like a virtual reality testing ground for testing future present moments, exploring relationships, prototyping ideas, and solving problems.

Sometimes thoughts of an emotional nature can be very 'sticky' and hang around longer than is useful -

One little trick I use is to stop the thought (at the point I become aware it's just a thought) by simply shouting STOP internally. Then SWITCH attention to another, more pleasant thought. Repeat that process until the original thought has faded from awareness.

Another 'top tip' is to simply ask the question - Does this thought relate to the here and now? So, for example, if you're travelling home from work, and find yourself in a rage because Don from Accounts borrowed your stapler without asking - simply stop that thought. Then look around you - Is Don actually there? Ars you in the office? And in this way you can recognise the thought for what it is - a virtual experience.

And I'm sure you will come up with other techniques to begin to differentiate between the contents of thought and direct experience.

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At this point I'm going to simply ask you -

Have you seen through the illusion of self?

Respond as honestly as you can, and if there are any doubts at all just let me know and we can take a look at them.

Paulo :)

Hi, Paulo,

Thanks for what you shared :)

Have you seen through the illusion of self?

Respond as honestly as you can, and if there are any doubts at all just let me know and we can take a look at them.

Honestly: I don't know what seeing through the illusion means really. I'll just describe my experience. It's long to describe, but it happened in a few moments.

It wasn't easy to decide me to write the following. In order to understand my ambiguity, I will say that I feel like someone that has seen a ghost, and is questioning his own sanity. But I'll write it, as an experience, and because it is disturbing for me, for my Reason. And I have the feeling I am moving too fast.

After my previous post, a question appeared : What is it that organizes my movements, my activities, so they don't fall into a chaos? Because we don't stay passive all the day to perceive things, we do things, we organize ourselves and control our movements for different purposes, and there is some coordination principle, a coordination center(s).

At first I admitted I am the person that organizes and controls my everyday life – at least some fictive person, so I could do what I do in my life and at least don't hit against people in the streets. Then I tried to perceive the “Organizer” while-planning-an-event. I saw it as some sophisticated thought/personality, and the moment I saw it – the organization process in me stopped, stopped in the middle of what I was doing. I saw the Me-organizer that was planning things, but I knew it is not me; and he was like frozen at that moment. There was something else that controlled everything but on a higher level – the will to see. Then I saw/heard (as I was still motionless and distant, without ANY intention to move) other “me”: a reasonable one, a joking one, a sage one: all they knew what I have or must do, all they were giving me algorithms for my everyday tasks or telling me what's good for my survival. They wanted me to do different things and exit my immobility. But I saw them, one by one, and again they were not me, there was something else that were observing them. … Like I already described, yesterday. But now it was different, it was stronger.

I felt/knew this :What can not be seen but tries to see itself is indeed EVERYTHING.
I can not see the real seer because I am the real seer. But I am not “I” anymore. The ultimate "I" is not a particular person, human, animal, plant, etc.
There is One thing, that “threw” itself out, that is throwing itself out every second, so it could see what it is. But it sees only parts of itself. It is moved by an eternal striving for perceiving/knowing itself and is constrained by the impossiblity to see itself completely. I can not express the feeling – it's like, realizing that, you want to cry and laugh at the same time.

For several moments I felt I am not confined in my body. That I was also all that was surrounding me and I was looking at me/it. My head was only a “base” for a new angle of perception. Do you know how you could see your own eye? Through its reflection in a mirror or through other eyes/objectives/lenses. The world is full of eyes, ears, sensual textures of any kind... on purpose. The living world is covered with sensitive tissues. Because it_wants_to_see_and_be_seen/experienced. It sees through so many eyes. And that “it” - It's me, it's you also. And the whole thing is not the true perceiver only, it is part of itself, the other part is the perceivable world. And it can expand itself but can not cut itself in two parts really.

Nev

Thank you nev for sharing your story,

Honestly: I don't know what seeing through the illusion means really

In my experience, the illusion of self is the belief that there is a seperate entity behind the word 'me'. It's the belief that this entity exists apart from experience, and controls and shapes that experience. Seeing through this illusion means recognising that there is no entity called 'me' outside experience. Rather 'me' is a label for experience, and there is nothing outside that experience.

It may be useful at this point to read the Gateless Gatecrashers book, to determine for yourself if the description above, and the stories of others who have seen through the illusion, are equivalent to the experience you describe. In this way you can ascertain if you have seen through the illusion of self.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

Paulo.

Hi, Paulo,

(I will read the Gatecrashers, thank you:)

I don't know if I saw the illusion. But I want it to be right.
And there is something that is not right. In the middle of my experience something is not ok. There is an emotion...
The days before, what I experienced was liberating – I had more energy and I was seeing my thoughts and false personalities. I was different. But today, as I was continuing to see those personalities as "not me", an emotion came that grew too intense. A thought-emotion about a child. I couldn't "detach" me from it, because I didn't see it like not-me. An abandoned child that is alone. And never will be able to be with another person again. It's a very, very, very abandoned creature, falling mad from that, telling stories, obsessive. It's troubling - it's like he wouldn't go away easily, like he wants to be my real and entire world. As it HAS to be true at any cost.

But I can not see this one as I saw the other thoughts. It's not shifting. It's there and it doesn't want to change or go, or reveal itself. As if it is real and solid. I look at it and it doesn't change. It's causing sadness. And it's frustrating. That thought, because now I see it - it's not me again. It refuses to go.

You know, it secretly has the hope that there is Someone to perceive, that there is a perceiver. Many perceivers.
Otherwise there will be a world of complete loneliness. Something in me does not admit this - that the whole world is an infinite lonely place. If there is not a seer, there is not love.
And what then? How is it possible this to be handled at all? The fear I will lose those I love. Or love will reveal itself as just an illusion. (Hope I'm readable enough.)

Nev

Hi nev,

I don't know if I saw the illusion. But I want it to be right.

What would 'right' look like - is this not just yet another expectation?

In all our investigations did you come across anything behind the word 'me' or 'I'?

The days before, what I experienced was liberating

Was there actually an 'I' there experiencing, or was there just experience?

A thought-emotion about a child. I couldn't "detach" me from it, because I didn't see it like not-me. An abandoned child that is alone.

Did you try asking the question - Does this thought relate to the here and now? Did you actually see an abandoned child? Or can you see this was pure fantasy and has no substance whatsoever?

You know, it secretly has the hope that there is Someone to perceive, that there is a perceiver. Many perceivers.
Otherwise there will be a world of complete loneliness. Something in me does not admit this - that the whole world is an infinite lonely place. If there is not a seer, there is not love.
And what then? How is it possible this to be handled at all? The fear I will lose those I love. Or love will reveal itself as just an illusion.

What complete bullshit - yet another dramatic story!! You won't get through this process by thinking about it, or creating melodramas rivalling Wagner's operas - this isn't a writer's studio :)

Get your head out of that nonsense and start looking - that's what we're doing here - LOOKING. We look at beliefs around the illusion of self - what is real remains, and what is illusion fades away. Look in front of you now and what do you see - a computer (I assume). Do you see some nihilistic baby character - I would imagine not.

On a scale of 1-10 how eager are you to see through the illusion of self?

Paulo.

Hi Paulo,

What complete bullshit - yet another dramatic story!! You won't get through this process by thinking about it, or creating melodramas rivalling Wagner's operas - this isn't a writer's studio :)

Absolutely :) It was a soap opera;) Then I was disgusted by myself.

But what "I was disgusted" means and by what "myself" "I am disgusted"?:) Another selves, actors in the screeplay. When one fake personality is unveiled, another takes the place. "I was angry at myself" than. And it's the same, just another episode of the show.

"I" would say to you "I am sorry" for the drama. And here I found the questioning very useful...

WHO is sorry? Who wants to apologize? Who wants to complain? Who panicks and feels disturbed? Who "failed"? Who wants to justify herself and to be justified? And to whom apologize - a self is needed to whom apologies have to be sent.

Yes, "I am very eager to see through the illusion of myself". But - the questioning again: WHO wants to see through the illusion of the self? Who wants to write to you and comfirm it, rather than just SHARE?

And if that "who" writes here: "Yes, I saw through the illusion of the self" that would be a nonsense... That would mean that there is another self that has to see the illusion of the self. How could a self see trough the illusion of a self? When perceived - the emotion is neutralized. Emotions of any kind. There is no need of identifying with emotions, no need of nothing at all:)

There is nobody who wants whatever. There is the freedom to be many things, to relate to, or not to be.
There is peace. Silence.

That answers all the questions, yes?:)

Nev:)

Hi nev,

That answers all the questions, yes?:)

Not at all, it's good to write out your thoughts, but it's more important here to answer the questions directly. I suggest you paste each question as a quote and answer it directly. This will help keep you focused on LOOKING instead of THINKING and getting lost in theories, speculation, expectations and all manner of side roads.

So, once again -

I don't know if I saw the illusion. But I want it to be right.

What would 'right' look like - is this not just yet another expectation?

In all our investigations did you come across anything behind the word 'me' or 'I'?

The days before, what I experienced was liberating

Was there actually an 'I' there experiencing, or was there just experience?

A thought-emotion about a child. I couldn't "detach" me from it, because I didn't see it like not-me. An abandoned child that is alone.

Did you try asking the question - Does this thought relate to the here and now? Did you actually see an abandoned child? Or can you see this was pure fantasy and has no substance whatsoever?

On a scale of 1-10 how eager are you to see through the illusion of self?

Paulo :)

Hi Paulo:)

What would 'right' look like - is this not just yet another expectation?

Right=honest. It is what I felt as “internal honesty”; there is a determination “in me” to be as much honest as possible. But there are no guarantees that I can't be fooled, so when it happens – a feeling appears that "something is not right", "that I try to lie to myself", it's like a question I hear from afar, a doubt that says “isn't that an illusion also?”. The similar effect have your questions.

In all our investigations did you come across anything behind the word 'me' or 'I'?

No. For moments I thought there is an ultimate “I”. It was a thought. I saw ideas labeled “me”, many of them. I saw I-characters that arise at some point. But when I look at them – they are definitely not “me”. And when I try to experience the “I” that is looking them, nothing as “me” can be experienced. At some point the "selfness" stops and there is just an experience not directed by nothing, by nobody, there is no need to; just an experience and an experience of that experience. .... Beliefs still arise in me, many times at the day; but now they are labeled just “beliefs”, “thoughts”, “roles”, and they have not the “strength” to place themselves as perceivers of the experiences. And the everyday situations that have brought to me different painful emotions before, they can not trigger those emotions anymore. It's like they encounter an emptiness and can not “attach themselves” to it.

"The days before, what I experienced was liberating"

Was there actually an 'I' there experiencing, or was there just experience?

Just experience.

"A thought-emotion about a child. I couldn't "detach" me from it, because I didn't see it like not-me. An abandoned child that is alone."
Did you try asking the question - Does this thought relate to the here and now? Did you actually see an abandoned child? Or can you see this was pure fantasy and has no substance whatsoever?

I didn't try asking this question. Just looked at it, expecting it will disappear or simply fade. But it didn't at the time.
I saw the image of a crying baby.
Now I can see this was a pure fantasy, but not at the moment I experienced it. It was like some program running.

On a scale of 1-10 how eager are you to see through the illusion of self?

10

Nev

Hi nev,

10

Sweet! Don't worry, we'll get you there :)

I didn't try asking this question. Just looked at it, expecting it will disappear or simply fade.

It's entirely up to you if you use these tips and techniques, this is YOUR inquiry, I'm only here to guide you. Only things is - it will be a very long inquiry if there's thinking instead of looking - why delay? :)

Just experience.

Great, now you see that there is just experience, and the 'I' thought is part of that experience, not seperate from it.

Beliefs still arise in me, many times at the day; but now they are labeled just “beliefs”, “thoughts”, “roles”, and they have not the “strength” to place themselves as perceivers of the experiences

Yes, beliefs will still arise, but you may find that over time their effect will be less and less. They will begin to be seen for what they are, just thoughts ... arising ... staying awhile ... then fading.

But there are no guarantees that I can't be fooled, so when it happens – a feeling appears that "something is not right", "that I try to lie to myself", it's like a question I hear from afar, a doubt that says “isn't that an illusion also?”. The similar effect have your questions.

As long as you're open and honest in your responses, everything will unfold naturally. Let me worry about whether something is right or not - that's what I'm here for. You see, sometimes the mind will be tricky, and tell you something doesn't feel right - but that feeling is actually trying to distract from something that is hiding and doesn't want to be seen or exposed for the illusion it is. That's why some of my questions will be sharp and to the point.

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You asked some very good questions in your previous response. Only mistake was putting the word 'who' in front of the questions. Simple reason, the 'who' already implies that there is a 'who' there, a seperate entity, which in reality there isn't.

Here's an example to illustrate - you're walking along a country path and see hoof prints in the mud. 'Wow', you say, 'these are unicorn hoof prints, let's go find the unicorn'. Following the hoof prints down the path you see a horse, but pass it by, and keep looking for a unicorn.
Moral of the story is - if you define what IS in reality before looking at reality, then you'll miss what's actually there ... and go chasing unicorns, or whos :) The solution is really simple - just LOOK!

I thought your questions were so good, we're going to explore them now - but this time with a 'what' -

What is sorry?
What wants to apologize?
What wants to complain?
What panicks and feels disturbed?
What "failed"?
What wants to justify itself and to be justified?
And to what to apologize?
What wants to see through the illusion of the self?
What wants to write to what and comfirm it, rather than just SHARE?

I want you to consider each of the questions individually, but you can answer them as one (as the answer is actually the same for each). Make sure you answer honestly and directly, and take a good look at each of them.

Paulo :)

Hi Paulo,

Thank you for your patience:)

I want you to consider each of the questions individually, but you can answer them as one (as the answer is actually the same for each). Make sure you answer honestly and directly, and take a good look at each of them.

What is sorry?
What wants to apologize?
What wants to complain?
What "failed"?
What wants to justify itself and to be justified?
What wants to write to what and confirm it, rather than just SHARE?

An image (mental) of me with its reactions, face expressions, intonations, attitudes and (dramatic:) thoughts.

And to what to apologize?

An image of you.

What panics and feels disturbed?

Another “thing” which wants to explain everything at any cost. To explain even its own process of explaining, even the process of explaining the process of explaining....

What wants to see through the illusion of the self?

As far as I can see it is not a thought. It is a feeling. A will to see, a determination.

(Yes. "What" is better than "who":)

Nev

Hi nev,

An image (mental) of me with its reactions, face expressions, intonations, attitudes and (dramatic:) thoughts.

Can you see that this 'me' is just a thought too, a character IN a thought, not something that has any substance in direct experience?

An image of you.

Now that's interesting! - Considering you'e never seen 'me', can you see this image is just another thought?

Is there a 'me' to have an image of?

(I bet this image is tall dark and handsome:)

Another “thing” which wants to explain everything at any cost

What thing? - LOOK LOOK LOOK - what IS that thing?
(Don't be vague on this - exactly what is that thing - describe it in fine detail)

As far as I can see it is not a thought. It is a feeling. A will to see, a determination.

OK, so it's a feeling ... is there anything behind this feeling, or is it just a feeling, a desire?

Did anything create or own this feeling, or did it just arise?

Paulo