Hi I would like guidance please

[davidll]

Hi Pete, Yesterday was a bit hectic and I want to spend some considerable time today to going over all
of this so I won't post again till late tonight
Thanks
David

[moondog]

Hi David,

No problem. Looking forward to reading your post later. Thanks for letting me know.

Pete x

[davidll]

How did it go for you when you did the exercise in 'real life', i.e. direct experience. Any sign of a discrete self-entity present and making a decision at any point?

Hi Pete
Yes I did this a number of times and couldn't find who or what was initiating the action. It also becomes evident that all of the
body's actions from scratching my head to changing positions as I sit in bed and type are not happening because I'm
directing the actions. I'm barely aware sometimes that they're even happening.

Does the body experience sensations and thought?

No the body does not experience sensations or thought.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

I have to consider this some more I'm not familiar with this idea.

"I" is just a thought..so it can't be a thinker, doer, witness or anything at all.

This seems to crystallise the whole thing for me. How about you? Any comments?

I'm having some trouble here. I can sit here and see all this, but in my daily life it seems like none of these things
are appearing. I have to look at this some more to make it clearer. I'll get back to you.

thanks again
David

[moondog]

Hi David,

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

I have to consider this some more I'm not familiar with this idea.

Another way of putting this would be, 'Can 'a body' be found in direct experience, or are there just tactile and kinaesthetic sensations?'

"I" is just a thought..so it can't be a thinker, doer, witness or anything at all.

I'm having some trouble here. I can sit here and see all this, but in my daily life it seems like none of these things
are appearing. I have to look at this some more to make it clearer. I'll get back to you.

Again, another way of asking this would be, ' Can you find a self as thinker, doer, witness or anything else at all, except for within thoughts?' The phrase I used just states this another way round which some people find useful.

P x

[davidll]

Hi again Pete,

Another way of putting this would be, 'Can 'a body' be found in direct experience, or are there just tactile and kinaesthetic sensations?'

There is no body to be found. there are just sensations.

Again, another way of asking this would be, ' Can you find a self as thinker, doer, witness or anything else at all, except for within thoughts?' The phrase I used just states this another way round which some people find useful.

No there is no self as a thinker, doer, witness or anything else at all, except for within thoughts. I fully agree
with this.

David

[moondog]

Hi David,

Now seems like a good time to go for some sweep-up questions to see where you're at. My apologies for repeating some questions that have already been asked recently. I'm sure you'll understand.

In direct experience

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

There's quite a bit here but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. Basically, we just need to tidy up and identify anything that needs to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

P x

[davidll]

Hi again Pete

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No I have not.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes it is.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

No.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

No it's all one.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No I have no doubts about the "self" being a mental fabrication.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

No, I really believe that I'm seeing through the illusion when I stop and look at it.
David

[moondog]

Hi David,

Excellent answers!

I reckon it's time for the final questions. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[davidll]

Thanks Pete I'll spend the evening working on this.
David

[moondog]

No problem, take your time. Looking forward to your answers.

P x

[davidll]

Hi Pete

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not a separate 'self' in any way, shape or form. There never was but I thought that there was because I believed a thought that wasn't true.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is the belief that there is someone or something usually called 'I' or "me' that controls and is responsible for every function, action,experience and thought that this human manifests. It starts when your a toddler and you realize that you have a name and start to have a story that you identify with. Until that time you are a just constant stream of experiences and are not separate from the world around you. From the constant reinforcement of those around you, you start to think that 'I' am looking, 'I' am playing, 'I' feel sad, 'I' am chewing my food, 'I' have an idea, and 'I' hear things around me. You think that you are a self separate from the rest of the universe.
By the time you become an adult almost every thought gets labeled with an 'I' at the beginning. You believe that 'I' should take the credit or the blame as in ( I shouldn't have let that happen) for all the sensations, thoughts, emotions and events that happen to me.
I see life now as a flow of experiences, processes, and thoughts. Seeing is happening, driving is happening, anger is happening, laughter is happening. There is no 'self' until the mind labels a thought with an 'I'( I am seeing etc.). 'I' is just a habit that the mind has invented. There is no reality to it. 'I' am not in charge, life is just happening through me. I am also starting to realize that just because I know this, the 'I' thoughts are not going to stop immediately. I think that this was the cause of my initial confusion. (see next answer)

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I know now that the difference took place a few weeks ago and was confirmed in the past few days.
The process started the day that I both broke my foot and received my copy of "Gateless Gatecrashers" in the mail. (From here this seems like more than a basic coincidence.)
I spent the next seven days and nights of my new found free time reading and looking and reading and looking and looking some more. The last afternoon while husking some corn for dinner some sort of change happened where seeing became much more forward in my awareness then usual. I have not looked at the book again and still feel no need or interest in doing so, I was quite content to just sit and be. Two days later I developed a blood clot in the calf above my broken foot. I spent the next 24 hours in the hospital. Even there I had an unusual sense of calm no anxiety, no stories, just a sort of being in the flow and taking in everything around me.
The days following my release from the hospital saw these changes decrease and the 'I' thoughts increase until it seemed that life was like it was before. I was confused about this so I decided to formally join the forum and get a guide. Going through each step with your help and writing it all out helped me feel confident that I had seen through the illusion. Then two days ago the doubts returned, but this time I realized that I was just over intellectualizing and I knew what to do. I just stopped until I could feel that I was all just sensations and processes again. I remembered that my teacher told me one time that waking up is like driving a car fast on the interstate. If you reach over and turn the key off the motor stops, but it takes a while for the car to slow down and stop. A lifetime of conditioning takes a while to unwind.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I don't know that there was a last bit. I think that was the totality of the evidence and the constant looking at the thoughts until there was no doubt that there could be no self. And
finally just relaxing into the flow of life.

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything

No I do none of these things, life is on automatic and I think that what I need to do most is to stop resisting.

Anything to add?

Just to say how grateful I am that this site exists and to thank you Pete for spending your time helping me to get it all clear.

Blessings
David

[moondog]

Hi David,

Sorry Q5 seems to have been cut short it should have read: Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

A couple of the guides just want the following clarified:

"I believed a thought that wasn't true." -- What believed the thought? What is belief anyway?

"I just stopped until I could feel that I was all just sensations and processes again." What stopped? Do sensations and processes constitute an "I"?

If, as you say life is a ‘flow of experiences, processes, and thoughts’ on automatic, then what is it that’s resisting?

I'll forward your replies to the guides as soon as I get them.

P x

[moondog]

Hi David,

I'm just off to London now. I'll be back late Sunday so, if you let me have your answers to the guides' questions by then, I'll forward them to the guides and we can move this process to it's natural conclusion.

Have a good weekend.

Love, Pete

[davidll]

Hi Pete I hope this will clear things up.

Sorry Q5 seems to have been cut short it should have read: Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experie

No I do none of these things, life just happens. Words come out of my mouth and I had no idea what was going to be said. Decisions and ideas come forth without "me" ever really thinking about them. Time goes by and they just appear as thoughts

"I believed a thought that wasn't true." -- What believed the thought? What is belief anyway?

There is no one to believe a thought. I should have been more clear, that was written as i would have thought about it before the the seeing of no self. Beliefs are just stories.

"I just stopped until I could feel that I was all just sensations and processes again." What stopped? Do sensations and processes constitute an "I"?

I should have said that " realizations arose that "I"thoughts were confusing the issue and relaxation was in order'. Sensations and and processes do not constitute an "I". there is no "I".

If, as you say life is a ‘flow of experiences, processes, and thoughts’ on automatic, then what is it that’s resisting?

Nothing is resisting. It seems that resistance just arises from conditioning. It would be nice if it stopped.

Thanks again
David

[moondog]

Hi David,

I'm happy to say that the guides are happy and satisfied.

I'll get on with getting you turned blue. I'll let LU admin have your FB name and they will be in touch with you soon with various info, links etc. for the various groups.

I've really enjoyed doing the pointing for you here and feel pleased and privileged to have been able to help you see through the illusion of a separate self. Go well!

Love,

Pete