Hi Drewan,
Thanks for the update, it's really interesting to hear how things are going. Doing all this while living from a suitcase must make it all, well, rather raw!
No pressure from this end - drop by whenever you feel inclined,
best wishes,
Perry
thread for Drewan
Re: thread for Drewan
Hi Perry,
Well I've been a bit caught up with external things lately; leaving one place of work and finding somewhere to live in the new town. Things are starting to take shape now and I hope to move at the end of the month.
While engaging with this process has taken a bit of a back seat the last few days, it's been good to tune in to seeing no self at times, particularly when strong self stories get going. It's almost like there are different self stories that need to come under the microscope of no self. I guess that's the advantage of going through the full guiding process as you say, one gets to see these as they come up. Today was interesting as some strong fear thoughts and feelings arose, fear of losing self; it was intense for a time but as they arose I could see their emptiness and so did not feed them and they passed. I am left feeling strangely moved.
I've also been 'playing' with the two states of mind – a 'self' that feels it has free will, and the 'no self so no issue' state; the first feels much more known, and comfortable, at least initially, but then starts to flounder as it needs propping up by stories, like 'but I have free will'. The second is like dropping into clarity and there is no need for any story, indeed it all seems rather funny. But when this awareness isn't there, the first state is quite compelling. Even the story in the first paragraph above can start to feel believable as a story of 'me' and pull 'me' towards the confusion of self belief – if that makes sense. But that drops away when this 'seeing clearly' awareness is present.
Thankfully!
Best wishes,
Drewan
Well I've been a bit caught up with external things lately; leaving one place of work and finding somewhere to live in the new town. Things are starting to take shape now and I hope to move at the end of the month.
While engaging with this process has taken a bit of a back seat the last few days, it's been good to tune in to seeing no self at times, particularly when strong self stories get going. It's almost like there are different self stories that need to come under the microscope of no self. I guess that's the advantage of going through the full guiding process as you say, one gets to see these as they come up. Today was interesting as some strong fear thoughts and feelings arose, fear of losing self; it was intense for a time but as they arose I could see their emptiness and so did not feed them and they passed. I am left feeling strangely moved.
I've also been 'playing' with the two states of mind – a 'self' that feels it has free will, and the 'no self so no issue' state; the first feels much more known, and comfortable, at least initially, but then starts to flounder as it needs propping up by stories, like 'but I have free will'. The second is like dropping into clarity and there is no need for any story, indeed it all seems rather funny. But when this awareness isn't there, the first state is quite compelling. Even the story in the first paragraph above can start to feel believable as a story of 'me' and pull 'me' towards the confusion of self belief – if that makes sense. But that drops away when this 'seeing clearly' awareness is present.
Thankfully!
Best wishes,
Drewan
Re: thread for Drewan
Hi Perry,
A quick check in as it's late. Just wanting to let you know I am still here, as it were, and engaged with this process. Although life is full with other things I am managing to tune in to no self awareness, and apply it when selfing stories arise. I'm finding it helpful to consciously do this as a meditation practice each day, which helps when I need to tune in at other times.
There still seems to be a process of coming to terms with this new perspective, it's so radically different from how I operated before, that I sometimes feel weirded out by it. 'What the hell is going on' comes to mind sometimes. At other times the clarity and simplicity of seeing no self feels very clear and simple and what's the big deal, it's a relief to see and drop the struggling.
I'm feeling ready to look at the six questions and send you something, though the next couple of weeks are looking busy, so I'm not sure when I will complete them. When I get some space I will endeavour to do so.
All the best,
Drewan
A quick check in as it's late. Just wanting to let you know I am still here, as it were, and engaged with this process. Although life is full with other things I am managing to tune in to no self awareness, and apply it when selfing stories arise. I'm finding it helpful to consciously do this as a meditation practice each day, which helps when I need to tune in at other times.
There still seems to be a process of coming to terms with this new perspective, it's so radically different from how I operated before, that I sometimes feel weirded out by it. 'What the hell is going on' comes to mind sometimes. At other times the clarity and simplicity of seeing no self feels very clear and simple and what's the big deal, it's a relief to see and drop the struggling.
I'm feeling ready to look at the six questions and send you something, though the next couple of weeks are looking busy, so I'm not sure when I will complete them. When I get some space I will endeavour to do so.
All the best,
Drewan
Re: thread for Drewan
Hi Drewan,
Thanks for the update. I've not hurried to answer as there doesn't really seem much to say, but I'm still with you!
Hope all is well,
Perry
Thanks for the update. I've not hurried to answer as there doesn't really seem much to say, but I'm still with you!
Hope all is well,
Perry
Re: thread for Drewan
Hi Perry,
Thanks for your reply, good to know you are still with me.
I've had an interesting time with these six questions, and have managed to pen some 'answers' which hopefully give a snapshot of where I am currently at with this. It's still all rather new, but there does seem to be a steadiness coming with this new perspective, which feels good. I'd welcome any comments and responses from you.
Best wishes,
Drewan
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No there is not. 'Selfing' goes on but this does not amount to a separate entity, there are just thoughts and feelings that combine to momentarily generate or define a sense of self, but when observed do not have any substance and can be seen as what they are, just thoughts and feelings in the process of generating or defining a self that doesn't really exist. As this is currently the case I see no reason to believe that it has ever been otherwise, and cannot conceive this possibility.
There are continuously changing bodily sensations, feelings, sense impressions, emotions and thoughts, but no separate self.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
I'm not sure how to answer this one but I guess the illusion of a separate self is generated by 'selfing' stories being believed and habitually reinforced as one grows up, maybe they are habits coming from previous lifetimes I don't know. Moment to moment I observe that a thought will attach an 'I' or a 'me' to an action or an experience, often with a feeling going with it as well, and this defines 'me' at any one time, or redefines 'me' as someone who does this or that or has this or that response to something; for example Arsenal are top of the Premiership and 'I' define myself as someone who likes Arsenal therefore 'I' feel good because of that.
I am currently in the process of moving home and notice different stories going on that are trying to define 'me' while this process unfolds: 'moving is a stressful experience therefore 'I' am likely to find it stressful as 'I' have done in the past'. But there are other 'me' stories going on which contradict this: 'I am a pretty laid back bloke and this moving business won't bother me too much', so there can be different selfing stories going on during a period of time which seem to describe different selves.
I think these stories have power depending on how thoroughly they are believed at the time, or maybe more accurately, how often they get reinforced over time, thus making them more habitual and likely to be believed so that a strong sense of self seems to be around most of the time. Again I have seen this to be contradictory or at least the selfing seems to me to be fickle as the sense of identity can change (as above) over time. I talk about these stories being believed but it is hard to separate the storytelling from the believing as it is the thoughts and feelings themselves which are defining self that are the believing mechanism, if you see what I mean. There isn't actually anyone doing the believing.
Interestingly, at least on a superficial level ,I have been noticing that these selfing stories are not always there, indeed when I am absorbed in an activity or being receptive in some way, they can be absent for periods of time, and only seem to come in when 'needed' to define or redefine a sense of self.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It has been a rocky road in some ways as the 'selfing' habits have been rolling on or even trying to get 'me' back and there have been periods of doubt and fear and wondering if I am going nuts because this is all so weird and radically different to how it was before.
It's been over a month since the first 'seeing' and more recently a new clarity has come around seeing that these selfing stories or habits keep happening and will continue to do so, and it isn't about trying to stop them, it's more about consistently seeing through them and not believing them. Seeing this has led to a steadier more confident experience where I don't feel so worried when strong selfing kicks off, and can get interested in what is going on and learn about the particular habits and thoughts and feelings that come up in particular situations that go about defining the 'me' that I no longer believe in.
The difference is that I believed the selfing stories, though actually not all the time as looking back on it I think there has been a gradual letting go of self over the last few years which maybe enabled the clear seeing to happen so quickly when I got in touch with Liberation Unleashed. However, I did get caught up in selfish reactions a lot more, and dramatised 'my' life in ways that 'I' would now feel embarrassed by, if it bothered me. So generally, even though the selfing still goes on there is a sense of space and simplicity and freedom from this self concern and dramatisation that dominated a lot of my experience beforehand.
This self concern and dramatisation obviously still goes on and I currently imagine that as these stories are not being fed because they are seen for what they are and not believed in they will gradually wither away, but this will take some time.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
This happened just after getting in touch with Perry. I'd been reading a thread from someone I know who has been through the gate and was struck by some questions put to him by his guide asking him to really look at his experience and describe what was really going on, what was being seen and how it was being seen, and by what. I decided to try the exercise and after twenty minutes or so a shift happened into seeing clearly that there was no me there but just the seeing. It all seemed much simpler than ‘I’ had previously thought and all of a sudden the ‘I’ stories lost their power and there wasn’t much going on at all.
Initially this felt strangely disappointing as a voice started saying ‘but I like me’ and I saw how much was invested in the me story, making it interesting and colourful and dramatic, but all of a sudden it just kind of dropped into a calm inactivity and clear seeing of there not being a me doing the seeing, that ‘I’ was not used to. At the time I felt kind of disillusioned and disappointed. It took a few days to get 'into' it.
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
This is an interesting one that I have been reflecting on and I sense depths of understanding and seeing that I am only dimly aware of, so there appears to be much room for deeper understanding to arise. My current position is that basically as there is no self there isn't anyone to decide, intend, choose, or control events, so it is a non- question: how can 'I' make anything happen if 'I' don't exist? But, on a day to day level, as this non self perspective is still fairly new to me, I observe that a lot of the time my experience is that 'I' am making decisions, it's just that, increasingly, I am not giving this 'I' the same degree of reality as I used to. Decisions seem to get made, and there are thoughts and feelings that tend to attach an 'I' to them. But with no believe in this 'I' it can all seem like a bit of a joke, and there is a feeling sometimes that decisions that used to preoccupy me are really not worth worrying about. When this happens in real time e.g. 'I' start to worry about where 'I' am going to live, and then remember or re-see that there is 'I' to worry about, then it all melts away into relief and a laugh!
When I look closely at decision making, I can see that different kind of decisions happen in different ways. So practical decisions about when to leave the house to get to work, for example, are conditioned by the practicalities of the situation, and one's thinking mind is generally good at making these kinds of decisions, and the sense of self attached seems fairly pragmatic too.
Decisions about continuing to do something are interesting and sometimes complexly conditioned, I think. They seem to have an habitual element to them, but also a learned element, and sometimes a deeper intuitive element. For example, I generally meditate in the morning if conditions allow. There is an habitual element here, as I have meditated a lot over the years, there is also a learning element, in that, 'my' mental states are generally better after meditating, and there is an intuitive element, that somehow there is often a sense of following a thread that is going deeper, or clearer, and this intuitive sense seems to be coming from somewhere deeper too. I also notice that making decisions to do something new are perhaps linked to this intuitive mode, though sometimes this is mysterious to me.
To me all this brings to mind the idea of karmic propensities, some of which seem to lead down a painful track, and others to brighter, more expansive states. So I am beginning to see that karma is still working somehow even though there is no 'self' there. It's all a bit new and exploratory and I believe deeper understanding will come over time, but that's my current view. I'd be interested in your views on this one Perry.
Perhaps related to this intuitive mode, I also notice that since this clear seeing of no self, there is a new strand of decision making, which also feels mysterious, profoundly so, and is more about expressing what is more real from within or responding to what is more real outside. With no 'I' being invested in, it is like a deeper reality can start to come through both from within and without ( though I also sense these terms within and without are only provisional and liable to melting away). This tastes very clean and free and unselfish and something within wants to go with this when it is moving. Is this the stream that one enters maybe, or to use Sangharakshita's language, the dharma niyama starting to come through? I wonder.
6) Anything to add?
Yes THANKYOU!!!!!
I really love what you guys are doing with Liberation Unleashed, and have very much appreciated your guidance Perry, particularly, in helping this new seeing to be born. It feels like you've been a bit of a midwife, if that makes any sense! You've pointed out were the gold is and kept the faith when 'I' have been struggling with doubts and weirdness. I found that very helpful.
I also love the way LU is offered freely and generously. I find generosity inspiring and have been inspired by you guys! I also love the simplicity of the approach – it has worked for me.
This is just a beginning for 'my' life with this new perspective and, as I mention above, I sense there are depths to explore and deeper realisations to mine, and that these will continue to transform this particular bundle of conditioning that I call me.
Thanks for your reply, good to know you are still with me.
I've had an interesting time with these six questions, and have managed to pen some 'answers' which hopefully give a snapshot of where I am currently at with this. It's still all rather new, but there does seem to be a steadiness coming with this new perspective, which feels good. I'd welcome any comments and responses from you.
Best wishes,
Drewan
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No there is not. 'Selfing' goes on but this does not amount to a separate entity, there are just thoughts and feelings that combine to momentarily generate or define a sense of self, but when observed do not have any substance and can be seen as what they are, just thoughts and feelings in the process of generating or defining a self that doesn't really exist. As this is currently the case I see no reason to believe that it has ever been otherwise, and cannot conceive this possibility.
There are continuously changing bodily sensations, feelings, sense impressions, emotions and thoughts, but no separate self.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
I'm not sure how to answer this one but I guess the illusion of a separate self is generated by 'selfing' stories being believed and habitually reinforced as one grows up, maybe they are habits coming from previous lifetimes I don't know. Moment to moment I observe that a thought will attach an 'I' or a 'me' to an action or an experience, often with a feeling going with it as well, and this defines 'me' at any one time, or redefines 'me' as someone who does this or that or has this or that response to something; for example Arsenal are top of the Premiership and 'I' define myself as someone who likes Arsenal therefore 'I' feel good because of that.
I am currently in the process of moving home and notice different stories going on that are trying to define 'me' while this process unfolds: 'moving is a stressful experience therefore 'I' am likely to find it stressful as 'I' have done in the past'. But there are other 'me' stories going on which contradict this: 'I am a pretty laid back bloke and this moving business won't bother me too much', so there can be different selfing stories going on during a period of time which seem to describe different selves.
I think these stories have power depending on how thoroughly they are believed at the time, or maybe more accurately, how often they get reinforced over time, thus making them more habitual and likely to be believed so that a strong sense of self seems to be around most of the time. Again I have seen this to be contradictory or at least the selfing seems to me to be fickle as the sense of identity can change (as above) over time. I talk about these stories being believed but it is hard to separate the storytelling from the believing as it is the thoughts and feelings themselves which are defining self that are the believing mechanism, if you see what I mean. There isn't actually anyone doing the believing.
Interestingly, at least on a superficial level ,I have been noticing that these selfing stories are not always there, indeed when I am absorbed in an activity or being receptive in some way, they can be absent for periods of time, and only seem to come in when 'needed' to define or redefine a sense of self.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It has been a rocky road in some ways as the 'selfing' habits have been rolling on or even trying to get 'me' back and there have been periods of doubt and fear and wondering if I am going nuts because this is all so weird and radically different to how it was before.
It's been over a month since the first 'seeing' and more recently a new clarity has come around seeing that these selfing stories or habits keep happening and will continue to do so, and it isn't about trying to stop them, it's more about consistently seeing through them and not believing them. Seeing this has led to a steadier more confident experience where I don't feel so worried when strong selfing kicks off, and can get interested in what is going on and learn about the particular habits and thoughts and feelings that come up in particular situations that go about defining the 'me' that I no longer believe in.
The difference is that I believed the selfing stories, though actually not all the time as looking back on it I think there has been a gradual letting go of self over the last few years which maybe enabled the clear seeing to happen so quickly when I got in touch with Liberation Unleashed. However, I did get caught up in selfish reactions a lot more, and dramatised 'my' life in ways that 'I' would now feel embarrassed by, if it bothered me. So generally, even though the selfing still goes on there is a sense of space and simplicity and freedom from this self concern and dramatisation that dominated a lot of my experience beforehand.
This self concern and dramatisation obviously still goes on and I currently imagine that as these stories are not being fed because they are seen for what they are and not believed in they will gradually wither away, but this will take some time.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
This happened just after getting in touch with Perry. I'd been reading a thread from someone I know who has been through the gate and was struck by some questions put to him by his guide asking him to really look at his experience and describe what was really going on, what was being seen and how it was being seen, and by what. I decided to try the exercise and after twenty minutes or so a shift happened into seeing clearly that there was no me there but just the seeing. It all seemed much simpler than ‘I’ had previously thought and all of a sudden the ‘I’ stories lost their power and there wasn’t much going on at all.
Initially this felt strangely disappointing as a voice started saying ‘but I like me’ and I saw how much was invested in the me story, making it interesting and colourful and dramatic, but all of a sudden it just kind of dropped into a calm inactivity and clear seeing of there not being a me doing the seeing, that ‘I’ was not used to. At the time I felt kind of disillusioned and disappointed. It took a few days to get 'into' it.
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
This is an interesting one that I have been reflecting on and I sense depths of understanding and seeing that I am only dimly aware of, so there appears to be much room for deeper understanding to arise. My current position is that basically as there is no self there isn't anyone to decide, intend, choose, or control events, so it is a non- question: how can 'I' make anything happen if 'I' don't exist? But, on a day to day level, as this non self perspective is still fairly new to me, I observe that a lot of the time my experience is that 'I' am making decisions, it's just that, increasingly, I am not giving this 'I' the same degree of reality as I used to. Decisions seem to get made, and there are thoughts and feelings that tend to attach an 'I' to them. But with no believe in this 'I' it can all seem like a bit of a joke, and there is a feeling sometimes that decisions that used to preoccupy me are really not worth worrying about. When this happens in real time e.g. 'I' start to worry about where 'I' am going to live, and then remember or re-see that there is 'I' to worry about, then it all melts away into relief and a laugh!
When I look closely at decision making, I can see that different kind of decisions happen in different ways. So practical decisions about when to leave the house to get to work, for example, are conditioned by the practicalities of the situation, and one's thinking mind is generally good at making these kinds of decisions, and the sense of self attached seems fairly pragmatic too.
Decisions about continuing to do something are interesting and sometimes complexly conditioned, I think. They seem to have an habitual element to them, but also a learned element, and sometimes a deeper intuitive element. For example, I generally meditate in the morning if conditions allow. There is an habitual element here, as I have meditated a lot over the years, there is also a learning element, in that, 'my' mental states are generally better after meditating, and there is an intuitive element, that somehow there is often a sense of following a thread that is going deeper, or clearer, and this intuitive sense seems to be coming from somewhere deeper too. I also notice that making decisions to do something new are perhaps linked to this intuitive mode, though sometimes this is mysterious to me.
To me all this brings to mind the idea of karmic propensities, some of which seem to lead down a painful track, and others to brighter, more expansive states. So I am beginning to see that karma is still working somehow even though there is no 'self' there. It's all a bit new and exploratory and I believe deeper understanding will come over time, but that's my current view. I'd be interested in your views on this one Perry.
Perhaps related to this intuitive mode, I also notice that since this clear seeing of no self, there is a new strand of decision making, which also feels mysterious, profoundly so, and is more about expressing what is more real from within or responding to what is more real outside. With no 'I' being invested in, it is like a deeper reality can start to come through both from within and without ( though I also sense these terms within and without are only provisional and liable to melting away). This tastes very clean and free and unselfish and something within wants to go with this when it is moving. Is this the stream that one enters maybe, or to use Sangharakshita's language, the dharma niyama starting to come through? I wonder.
6) Anything to add?
Yes THANKYOU!!!!!
I really love what you guys are doing with Liberation Unleashed, and have very much appreciated your guidance Perry, particularly, in helping this new seeing to be born. It feels like you've been a bit of a midwife, if that makes any sense! You've pointed out were the gold is and kept the faith when 'I' have been struggling with doubts and weirdness. I found that very helpful.
I also love the way LU is offered freely and generously. I find generosity inspiring and have been inspired by you guys! I also love the simplicity of the approach – it has worked for me.
This is just a beginning for 'my' life with this new perspective and, as I mention above, I sense there are depths to explore and deeper realisations to mine, and that these will continue to transform this particular bundle of conditioning that I call me.
Re: thread for Drewan
Hi Drewan,
Thanks for going through the questions so thoroughly, it was a great read!
I'll get back to you ASAP, right now it is a bit too late to get stuck in,
Very best wishes,
Perry
Thanks for going through the questions so thoroughly, it was a great read!
I'll get back to you ASAP, right now it is a bit too late to get stuck in,
Very best wishes,
Perry
Re: thread for Drewan
Hello again!
Well that all seems pretty clear, I don't think I've got any further questions ... let's see if any other guides have anything to ask or add,
Best wishes
Perry
Well that all seems pretty clear, I don't think I've got any further questions ... let's see if any other guides have anything to ask or add,
Best wishes
Perry
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