Looking for guidance

[King Nothing]

Maybe I've been looking from a different angle than you was pointing at... I've been overcomplicating. :)

When I look at a chair, I see a chunk of matter. The label 'chair' is applied on top of that.

[Pallavi]

So look around :) what do you see? Do you see 'chunks of matter'? Are you seeing 'things'? Are you trying to see 'things'? What happens before your eyes focus to label?

[King Nothing]

I see colours, shapes and there is a sense of size and distance - but those are also labels, I suppose.

I'm not trying to see, it just happens. As does all the labelling. :)

[Pallavi]

Yes :) there is nothing in particular to see. Seeing happens when your eyes are open.

Is seeing 'your' experience?

Do you need an Alex to see?
Do you need a thought about seeing to see?

[King Nothing]

Is seeing 'your' experience?

It seems like it is.

Consciousness is aware of the seeing, and I identify with that as 'an 'I' doing seeing'. There is sight, and I identify with that awareness as something that is seeing.

Since there is a subjective experience, I have a sense of a subject - an experiencer, an 'I'.

Do you need an Alex to see?

No. The personality 'Alex' is just a label - but I still have the sense of an 'I', or subject, or experiencer, as explained above, which goes deeper than the label of my personality.

Do you need a thought about seeing to see?

No. Seeing happens automatically.

[Pallavi]

See, I can only point you but you need to get out of your beliefs if you want to see. Where do you see consciousness in your experience? Where do you see mind? If you want to identify something- you can and that's upto you.

Is consciousness you? Is it a separate entity that is aware of the seeing? How do you know this- is this in your DIRECT EXPERIENCE I.e anywhere in your senses?

[King Nothing]

I'm starting to see that seeing just happens in direct experience, the idea of something seeing is only an idea... but it's a hard idea to break through. :)

[Pallavi]

Look for it. What is aware? Is it just a thought or does it really exist?

Seeing happens. Are 'you' conscious of it all the time? Does something have to experience something or can experience just happen?

Try walking. If you suddenly trip and fall would you blame yourself? Is this 'consciousness' aware of your walking throughout your walk or are you thinking of a million different things?

Can you control those thoughts? Can you stop thinking at any point in time? Are all the thoughts real? If I asked you to imagine a purple flying cat, can you? Does it exist?

Sink deep down into the seeing. Without labels, Do you find a separate seer, seeing and seen?

[King Nothing]

I can't find anything that is aware, there's just the experience. Experience just happens, there doesn't have to be something experiencing it.

Normally I'd be thinking of other things, and if I tripped I couldn't blame myself - it would have just happened.

There isn't a separate entity 'me' to control the thoughts. Thinking happens. And the thoughts aren't all real.

The seeing is just seeing, no seer or seen is there in the actual experience.


All my experience is contrary to the idea of 'I'. I haven't realised no-self yet, but I will if I just keep going!

[King Nothing]

Any other pointers?

[King Nothing]

When I focus in on the sense of self, I'm experiencing the looking itself (looking as in introspection).

The idea of 'I' for me seems to go back to the looking itself.

The looking is happening to itself, so the sense of 'I' is that 'the looking is doing the looking'.

The looking is just happening, but I have a sense that it is something which looks at other things or itself.

Such a kerfuffle! Can you give me pointers to break through this?

[Pallavi]

"I have a sense that it is something which looks at other things or itself."

Where is this sense? Where is it in the body physically?

Or is this sense in your thoughts?

"The seeing is just seeing, no seer or seen is there in the actual experience" - so what do you see?

It's easy to say things are happening- but if I told you, everything happens, and there is no controller, etc- this is theory. It is the right answer, but it won't help you.

How is the looking happening to itself- what does this mean? What are 'you' looking for? If you look for sense of self- what do you find?

If there is no separate entity as 'you'- then what are you trying to find?

How do you know when you would have realized no self?- are there expectations?

[Pallavi]

What is this something that is looking at something else?

Find both the somethings and describe them.

Find the self in hearing. Sink deep down into your hearing. Just open your ears. What do you hear before thoughts comes in to label?

Try this with touching as well.

[King Nothing]

Where is this sense? Where is it in the body physically? Or is this sense in your thoughts?

Not physically in the body. It’s not thinking, either. This process is about looking to see the true nature of the ‘I’, yes? I’m talking about that looking, that introspection experience.

so what do you see?

Images. Colour, shape, size.

How is the looking happening to itself- what does this mean? What are 'you' looking for? If you look for sense of self- what do you find? If there is no separate entity as 'you'- then what are you trying to find?

The experience of looking itself. That’s what is there when I look at the sense of self. I’m trying to see the idea of self for what it is.

How do you know when you would have realized no self?- are there expectations?

I expect there would be no concept of self, I would know through direct experience that there isn't a self.

What is this something that is looking at something else? Find both the somethings and describe them.

The looking is looking at the looking. Awareness focused on awareness. So both these things are the faculty of being aware. I don’t know how to describe it better.

I am aware that I am aware. If awareness can be aware of itself, that makes it seem like a thing that is aware.

Seeing isn't aware of seeing, awareness is. Seeing is the experience of sight, and awareness recognizes that it is happening. That’s how it seems to me. Same with the other 4 senses, and with thinking.

Find the self in hearing. Sink deep down into your hearing. Just open your ears. What do you hear before thoughts comes in to label? Try this with touching as well.

I hear sounds. I feel tactile sensations.

[King Nothing]

I've been 'looking' closer, and I'm starting to see that maybe I was actually mistaking labelling/interpreting for 'looking'! Wow. The delusion goes so deep.

What I'm experiencing when focusing on the idea of 'I', is actually a stillness which feels kind of like a wall in my mind guarding the idea of 'I'.

I was mistaken about this in my first, third and fifth paragraphs in the previous post... :)