I still believe in Me! (Please assist..)

[Lanimal]

Exactly what danger was there? (be specific here).

Lookingwise there were strong contracting experiences in my stomach and some sort of similar things in my head at the same time. i can only describe it as an energy form. Lookingwise they have no color or label. Thinkingwise these were feelings and i would call them as fear and anxiety. Mentally imaginary i thought i was going to fall. So no actual danger was there, there were only.. hmm.. there were only sensations. No real danger, no real fears.

Anything outside sensations would be meaning outside direct Experience.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

So no actual danger was there, there were only.. hmm.. there were only sensations. No real danger, no real fears.

Very good, now you're getting the hang of it! You can see that there was no real danger in reality, just as there was no building, or a 'you' standing on top of that building.

Previously I'd posed the question - "why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?"

In my experience the answer is simply that the mind cannot tell the difference between something that's vividy imagined, and something that's real. For me, it's a question of focus - if we focus intently on thought we fail to see reality (direct experience), and mistake the imagined sensations FOR reality. Just like in a dream at night, there is little sensory input, so the focus is on the dream. We may dream of being chased by a monster, but on awakening see that monster is no where to be found - why? it was only ever an illusion.

For me, thoughts can be very useful - it allows for planning, simulating events to try different scenarios, design objects, solve problems...I'm sure there's lots more. Thoughts for me are almost like a 'virtual reality', and in that space 'I' can jump tall buildings, breathe underwater, drive hot sports cars, and live in a gold palace.

When the mind mistakes the content of thought for reality the whole body/mind reacts accordingly. And as you saw with your own experience, you had physical contractions in the stomach, also a feeling of anxiety. Was there anything to be anxious or tense about? - not really.

Based on your own experience with that exercise, how would you now respond to the statement below -

Thoughts are real , but the content is not.

Paulo.

[Lanimal]

Many things flying through my head right now, i will try to write it down as good as possible.
Sorry for perhaps some weird writing, but I wanna write it down so you know what goes one here:


The little movie you showed is doing its work I guess. It repeats itself in my mind sometimes, deepening the meaning.

"In my experience the answer is simply that the mind cannot tell the difference between something that's vividly imagined, and something that's real."

This is exactly as I would want to describe it.
I wondered about this question a lot, how would I make up the difference between imagination and reality. The sound of my thoughts are as clear as car passing by.
I realized something today, I got/understood for a glimpse that Basically there could never be any real danger, ever. Any given situation. It would always be a translated-sensation. The body might act on certain situations, when needed to, but for a second I felt its like... its like you can not die. Without the labeling there are only sensations. The scariest thing, it is a body contraction experience. And until the moment that all sensations will stop (as apparently the body stops functioning and decays at a certain point) there is no need or no ground to worry about anything. The body will act to avoid pain when needed. And with direct experience in one hand you could fight all imaginary pain with the other.

"Glimps moment"
While writing all this I saw a small glimpse of the fact that there is a whole world out there totally outside imagination. I lost this feeling for now as I write this as memory/intellectually right now, but it felt there is a world out there where you would have to trust to let go of the labeling machine. I cant remember how I got there exactly. I felt immensely freighting and unlimited at the same time. The very fact letting go of me.. it felt so huge, extraordinary. The trust that you dont need you.

Haha.. I would give you a hundred dollars right now if you could bring me back to that feeling/place again, and keep me there long enough, to let go. I would love to sit on that edge for a while, and being thankful for everything, and then jump.. or let go of me.
It is all imaginary right now. but it felt huge.

I now recall how I got to the glimp moment above, as I was writing the thing below:
You could basically experience the worst thing in the world, but if you stick to direct Experience there would no label there.
You wrote "just as there was no building, or a 'you' standing on top of that building." well before the glimpse, the YOU part was not so clear to me as the fear/danger part.
Then the glimpse came that directly connected the no-fear-danger part to the Me, turning on the light that the "Me" goes with it when you drop the fear-danger part by using clear perception.

And now I am back in writing and thinking about it, and thinking about how to write it, clearly taking me far away from the looking.
Haha.. what a mess.
I am going to post this right now, I hope it makes sense.

[Lanimal]

Thoughts are real , but the content is not

It makes a lot of sense right now. :)
But it feels weird... because it is like one moment this statement seems so utterly true, and then it is like as though clouds gather again so I can not see this clearly. Crazy...!
Its like I need to relive the steps to get there, to get to that conclusion.

[Paulo]

Thanks Martijn,

Thoughts are real , but the content is not

It makes a lot of sense right now. :)
But it feels weird... because it is like one moment this statement seems so utterly true, and then it is like as though clouds gather again so I can not see this clearly. Crazy...!
Its like I need to relive the steps to get there, to get to that conclusion.

I'm glad you can see that the content of thought is not real. It's not such a big step to get there, and you can do it anywhere at anytime - just LOOK, and what is illusion disappears, what is real remains.

You say you've read some Jed McKenna, I seem to recall there was a phrase in one of those books - 'Truth exists'. So does reality, it's right here right now. So there's no big effort involved, there's nothing magical, or spiritual about it, reality IS what IS.

I understand from what you write, that your experience is one that's focused very much 'in' thought. Let's refocus from 'virtual reality' to direct experience with a little exercise -

Pick a time in your day (when it's safe to do so), and mentally shout 'STOP'. At that moment completely freeze, stop dead. No matter where you are or what you're doing - pretend you are a stone statue and freeze.

Take the next 60 secs and just be aware of every sound that occurs.

(You may like to close your eyes during this exercise so you can focus on hearing alone)

Make a mental note of every sound that occurs and write each one down in a list as soon as the 60 secs has elapsed (so you don't forget).

Post the list here in your next response and be as detailed as you like. No need to order or categorise the sounds (as that would be thinking ABOUT them), just list whatever sounds occur.

Paulo :)

[Lanimal]

You say you've read some Jed McKenna, I seem to recall there was a phrase in one of those books - 'Truth exists'. So does reality, it's right here right now. So there's no big effort involved, there's nothing magical, or spiritual about it, reality IS what IS.

Its funny. I thought about this exact thing yesterday. I always thought that the Truth would be something spiritual or magical. In my idea when I talk or think of the truth, it would be something mystical, and therefor had a unreachable flavor to it. Something to gain in the future. And then I thought, every true book I read was about de-mystifying 'enlightenment stuff'. So I thought perhaps I needed to de-mystify the truth.
And there you said it. Its nothing magical, its being at present.

Its all about Focus...
I find this still weird. Because the present is always present, it has no other form. The is no other present. And yet there are two ways to be in the present, your brain or your perception can switch focus. Between ideas (thoughts) and present as I would call it. I understand 99% of my time is taking place in the idea part. And the content of thought is unreal/made up. Still i feel like I am missing out something.. its not clear to me at all, what is the part/entity that changes focus. I mean, the perception is changing from ideas to reality, but then why would perception do that, and how does it do that and then what is perception exactly. It is like I can look and observe the world but I do not know/understand not even vaguely what it is. Basically I am totally unknown to myself.

[Lanimal]

I did the STOP Exercise right now:

People and trash can.
Nothing
People and trash can
Tram starting to ride
Thought if Iam doing the excesice well
Car coming,
other people talking
Car passing
Thoughts to remind me that I need to remember this
Silence
My breathing
Thought that I hear silicense and that I do not hear silence but that I heard sounds with time in between it.
An other car
A tram
My breathing
My breathing
Light background city sounds
Thoughts if it would be time already
My breathing
More thoughts about I better stop and write this down.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

So I thought perhaps I needed to de-mystify the truth.

You can see the word 'thought' at the beginning of that sentence, that says it all really, for we can think just about anything, but that doesn't mean it's real. Try 'thinking' you're a millionaire and go into your local car dealership and try to buy a car with your millions ... I'm pretty sure the sales staff will direct you to the nearest exit very quickly :)

Its all about Focus...
I find this still weird. Because the present is always present, it has no other form. The is no other present. And yet there are two ways to be in the present, your brain or your perception can switch focus. Between ideas (thoughts) and present as I would call it. I understand 99% of my time is taking place in the idea part. And the content of thought is unreal/made up. Still i feel like I am missing out something.. its not clear to me at all, what is the part/entity that changes focus. I mean, the perception is changing from ideas to reality, but then why would perception do that, and how does it do that and then what is perception exactly. It is like I can look and observe the world but I do not know/understand not even vaguely what it is. Basically I am totally unknown to myself.

I like that you're writing out your thoughts, it helps to clarify them, and to unearth any questions, or doubts you may have. What I would recommend is that you keep writing out your ideas, maybe on the computer or a notebook, so your have a record of your jourmey during this process. You don't have to post them here, as they're just for you, and we will keep the forum here just as a 'work space', where you share the results of any exercises we carry out.

And don't worry about figuring it all out just yet, we take it one step at a time. And that first step is to see that the self is an illusion. Awakening to reality with the self in place would be next to impossible, so be patient with yourself, and follow the guiding here. That's all you really need to do for now, trying to figure it all out at once is actually distracting from the process, so it makes things more difficult. (I hope that made sense).

The band 'The Beatles' had a line in one of their songs - 'close your eyes and float downstream'. This would be my advice to you - be with the process, and the exercises I give you, and let go of all else for the moment.

Well done on trying the 'STOP exercise', pretty good for a first try. I'd like you to have another go at it today, as I see you've included thoughts there too. We're just looking at sounds happening in the moment, and if you try it again you may find that the sounds you hear will be more detailed, and even those subtle sounds that passed you by before will be heard.

Again, just write out a list, just as you heard the sounds,

Paulo.

[Lanimal]

Okee...! Thanks. Let focus on what you see as important.

I did the listening exercise again, here is the results:

Cars driving
Squeaky sounds, probably from the railroad
Bike rumbling,
Cars passing
Low Exhaust sounds of accelerating car
People talking sounds
Shouting
City background noise
Wind in my ears
Tram passing sounds
Club of bikers sounds
Cars hitting roads bridge pavements
Wind in my ears
People talking
Lady shouting sounds
City noise
Some rumbling
Hitting on Pipes
Wind through nostrils

During the exercise I noticed I was thinking a lot how to name the sounds. Like car, tram, bike, people etc.. So I did it again, it had pretty much the same sounds, but then I tried to express the sounds not in words, but in sounds.
So the exercise was a bit like this:

bbbrrrrr brrrrr brrrr (car)
Iiiiieeeeeee (train squeaky noise)
Grw grw rgw rgwgwg grw (bike rumbling)
manannama me (people talking)
Sssssjjjjjjjjjjjjjjiiiewwwww (car passing)

Any way, I notice that I constantly try to let thoughts in to label or notice the sounds.
But I just kept on listening for as good as it went.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

I really liked your variation on the listening exercise - to express the sounds AS sounds, rather than as labels - I really like that idea, I hadn't thought of doing it that way before :)

One sound that was missing from the list, but which was in your last list, was the sound of your breathing. This is a very important sound to become aware of as it's one of the few sounds that's happening in the here and now and is always with you no matter where you are.

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Choose a quiet moment when you will not be disturbed. Sit somewhere comfortable and focus on the sound of your breath. Just that, the breath, nothing else. Hear the breath come in and go out. Don't try to breath in a certain pattern, just allow the body breathe.

Continue this for 10-15 minutes, and during that time allow thoughts to arise as they do, and just watch them. Don't become involved in the story, watch them like you would watch a tv show. If you find attention wandering, or getting 'caught' in the drama of a thought, just return your awareness to the breath and carry on.

[The breath can be used as a tool to centre you in the moment. As you saw from the 'listening exercise' the breath is happening in the here and now, focusing on it will bring you out of 'sticky' thoughts and back into reality. It's a sound that we always have with us, every moment of everyday, so gives us an opportunity every moment to be in the moment, by just listening]

Share your experience of the exercise above.

Paulo.

[Lanimal]

Yes.. it didn't make sense to me that I was thinking "car" "bike" "people" all the time, because I did hear a car, I heard the engine, but I didn't hear the engine, I heard the exhaust, but I did hear the exhaust, I heard "Bbbrrrrrrr brrr".
But even 'Bbbrrrr brrrr' didn't do the job, because the letters did not represent the sound, but I could not find any other way to formulate it.


I did the breathing exercise, I ended up sitting 35minutes listening to my breath.
Basically with every breath the mind was wandering of and thinking about stuff, like the nice girl I met yesterday, newspaper items I read about and my political opinions about that, sexual desires, irritating sounds I hear (garage below) and all sort of short stupid things one can think about, then occasionally I went of in some story for a bit longer (I think 10 times) but most of the time I could recover turning back to the breathing and the breathing sound.
There was no force to breathe, although you notice differences in deepness. And then there we flashes of relaxation, where the body came to rest more, sinking a little deepening in the breathing. (and thinking).
Most of it was like this: breathe in.... sounds.. breathe out.... think think think... breathe in.... sounds.. breathe out.... think think think... breathe in.... sounds.. breathe out.... think think think...

[Lanimal]

Oh... and I felt a lot of resistance to do the breathing job. Like it is not useful, feeling to busy to sit down, or too caught up in doing stuff rather then taking the time for it. It felt... like a third-rate thing to do..
Like it is not going to help me anywhere. Like you have to look at something you do not want to look at.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

Basically with every breath the mind was wandering of and thinking about stuff, like the nice girl I met yesterday, newspaper items I read about and my political opinions about that, sexual desires, irritating sounds I hear (garage below) and all sort of short stupid things one can think about, then occasionally I went of in some story for a bit longer (I think 10 times) but most of the time I could recover turning back to the breathing and the breathing sound.

That's great, I'm pleased you were able to return to the breath after moments of drifting into thought. This technique is extremely powerful, not only for keeping focused in the here and now, but also to step out of thoughts that are overwhelming. It's similar to meditation techniques called Vipassana in India and Zazen in Japan (you can look them up for more info), and I would definitely recommend taking even 10 minutes out each day to practice this technique, as those racing thoughts will calm down after a while. And of course you can try it at any time during the day you need to refocus on reaity.

Oh... and I felt a lot of resistance to do the breathing job. Like it is not useful, feeling to busy to sit down, or too caught up in doing stuff rather then taking the time for it. It felt... like a third-rate thing to do..

That's fine, just allow the resistance to be there and complete the exercise. That exercise shifts focus away from the content of thought and into the moment - that's an extremely valuable skill, especially when the content of thought is causing stress. Remember that the content of thought is just that - a thought, an illusion - why suffer or feel anxious as a result of an illusion, life is too short.

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Today, we will explore a more advanced form of the 'breathing exercise', (although I would recommend continuing the basic breathing exercise as a daily routine anyway).

Take a quite moment in your day, as you have done previously, get into a comfortable position and prepare to spend the next 10-15 minutes (or more) watching your breath. You can listen to the sound of the air gently coming in and out of your nostrils, or you can watch your belly rise and fall with each breath. Choose a point of focus that suits you.

Again, if any thoughts arise, just allow them be there. But this time watch them and ask this simple question of each thought as it arises - Does this thought have anything to do with the present moment? Report on what you find with a few examples.

For example - From the previous experience of the exercise you reported that while watching the breath a thought arose about a nice girl you met. Simply ask the question - does this thought have anything to do with the present moment? Unless she is there in the room and you're thinking about her being in the room then the answer would be 'no, it's just something being imagined'. And as the scenario with the girl is just the content of a thought, you know it's not real, and can just let it go, focusing back on the breath. Similarly with any other thoughts.

The point of this exercise here is to help you distinguish between reality (direct experience), and illusion (vivid imagination), so that you can experience life, instead of being lost in illusions. Or to use a surfing analogy - it will help you ride the crest of the wave instead of wiping out and getting swamped in the water.

Paulo :)

[Lanimal]

Yes.. I am familiar with the Vipassana 'meditation' (I hate this word).
Had some retreats where we did the sitting-breathing every day.
Although then the focus was on the breathing, the direct Experience part was not explained so well. Or perhaps, I just now start to understand.

Its nice to think this "Does this thought have anything to do with the present moment?". I am going to remember this one. It brings and brakes it all down to what it really is, a just-a-wandering-brain-thought then being pulled back to reality. My mind definitively just constantly wanders, thats for sure.
I can stay pretty much with the breathing, but every gap there is the mind tries to move away.
During a quiet bike ride today I was 'trying to stick to reality' and listening to my breathing, and I noticed that I sort of down-grade this mind-wandering. Which is funny as this down-grade itself is an other mind-wander. Its very slick, and persistent.

I sat down at the beach this evening, to sit down and do the breathing. My mind is just going everywhere and taking every opportunity to take off into dreams. But during the breathing yes I managed to stay with the breathing a lot as well too. It takes a long time but then small waves of relaxation kick in, and an occasional total blank head, at rest. Followed by a deep sigh. I also noticed the breathing sometimes stops when the mind is completely quiet, when I am just looking with a fresh eye at the sky and the sea.

As I wondered of many times I sort of felt sad when going back home, that I am not good enough to see reality, and that I will never will become good in this exercise, and be able to find peace with myself, and reach this (imaginary) state of bliss, insight, reality, and acceptance.
On my way back I also noticed I am expecting (hoping) this miracle to happen any moment to finally awake fully. I have this feeling/thought/desire quite a while now, for the last 12 months I think. I noticed that this stupid longing is part of the trouble seeing reality. But it is still a persistent fantasy I have.

[Paulo]

Hi Martijn,

Its nice to think this "Does this thought have anything to do with the present moment?". I am going to remember this one. It brings and brakes it all down to what it really is, a just-a-wandering-brain-thought then being pulled back to reality.

It would be great if you can share some examples of moments you found this useful, and were able to recognise the difference between a vivid tought and reality. In other words - it sounds fine in theory, but did it actually work for you?

My mind definitively just constantly wanders, thats for sure.

That's fine, that's what the mind does. The trick is being able to turn down the volume on thought a little, and not to get stuck 'in' thought, but rather to see it running parallel to direct experience.

As I wondered of many times I sort of felt sad when going back home, that I am not good enough to see reality, and that I will never will become good in this exercise, and be able to find peace with myself, and reach this (imaginary) state of bliss, insight, reality, and acceptance.

Just allow yourself to be where you are now. The acorn doesn't worry about being good enough to become an oak tree, it just lets wahtever unfolds in the moment to happen.

On my way back I also noticed I am expecting (hoping) this miracle to happen any moment to finally awake fully. I have this feeling/thought/desire quite a while now, for the last 12 months I think. I noticed that this stupid longing is part of the trouble seeing reality. But it is still a persistent fantasy I have.

Awakening certainly isn't a miracle, look at all those people from all over the world in the 'Read only Archives' who managed to look and see. It's something well within reach - remember - reality doesn't give two hoots about your, or anyone else's, expectations - it is what it is in the moment.

Now that you are beginning to see that the contents of thought pulling you away from reality are not real, and you have a technique for shifting awareness from the content of thought to direct experience, we will back track a little and look at the present moment again -

Previously I asked you to consider the statement - Nothing exists outside the present moment, and you mentioned that you weren't sure if you were answering the question.

What I meant was to look at the present moment - Is there anything other than the present moment that exists in reality?

For example -
Think of the breakfast you had yesterday. What time frame does that memory occur in (i.e. past, present, future)?

Think of what you would like to do at the weekend? Likewise, what time frame does that thought occur in (i.e. past, present, future)?

Hope that makes sense, if not let me know and I'll try to clarify.

Paulo.