The Gate

Hi Julie,

To me it all looks like you have seen through the illusion of separate self. If you have any doubts or any unresolved sticking points it would be great to bring that up.

can i ask how long it has been for you and what your experience has been since no self ? forgive me if that isnt appropriate.

Sure, it is totally appropriate. I have crossed the gate about 8 months ago and like you I have already been on the edge of seeing through that imaginary “I” before starting a conversation with my guide. I was also waiting for/expecting some sort of a big bang or something but there was just a subtle shift in perception. I have heard that some people do have some sort of a “meaningful” breakthrough, yet others have much more subtle experience.

For me seeing through “I” was just a beginning. Since then my experience is deepening more and more and life in general is indeed much easier and more flowing. I still experience all sorts of emotion, bad stuff can still happen, however nothing bothers me for any significant amount of time. Everything resolves much faster. And as you have probably noticed I still shamelessly use word “I”. It is still great to use for communication. So basically, for me everything is much more open, free, lighter, etc… Sometimes I still feel like “I” am doing something, yet most of the time, life just flows without anyone doing anything.

So, how do you feel about this? Do you feel you have seen through? Can I ask you final questions or would you like to investigate further?

Kind regards
Milan

p.s. Keep looking from direct experience. :)

Hi Milan,
Thank you so much for sharing this and all that you have. I honestly dont know if I have seen through.I feel like I have seen ALOT but not sure I've given up the illusion. I sometimes don't feel free or see things working as they should until I notice the feelings and thoughts and then go into looking; but so much has lifted I do feel much lighter. I am halfway through reviewing our conversations again, and answering the questions that were asked and Im finding them much easier.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to look like, there is still a thought of 'perfection of knowing' upon seeing no separate self milling around. I have heard that once you see the truth you will never be able to un-see it. Also that there is clarity in all is happening just as it should. Is that ego driving the expectation or is it truth that will surface when seeing through has truly happened?

So here is a place of doubt - When I am alone or at work i can generally contemplate, reflect and explore no self easily. When I have interactions with others very close to me, I notice this is where the strongest sense of I'ness happens-- like I paid for dinner so you should thank ME, I did something good/bad so a reaction to I is necessary, I want to be right or better or good, or recognized. yes it is all thought, but in the interest of full disclosure and desire to live in truth, I'm telling you.

I totally trust and look forward to you thoughts & instruction on how to proceed.
Thank you again, so much.
julie

Hi Julie,

I can totally relate to and understand what you are saying. There is this wonderful clip on youtube by Rupert Spira that addresses this exact dilemma. It is about 20 minutes and I would recommend you see it. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVCeCqwAkFE

After you've seen the clip consider following questions again from direct experience:

What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
Is there a self that controls breathing? That walks? That does daily activities?
Is there a chooser?
Are YOU the thinker of thoughts? Can YOU choose a thought?
Does the body experience sensations and thought? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

I'm not sure what this is supposed to look like, there is still a thought of 'perfection of knowing' upon seeing no separate self milling around. I have heard that once you see the truth you will never be able to un-see it. Also that there is clarity in all is happening just as it should. Is that ego driving the expectation or is it truth that will surface when seeing through has truly happened?

How would you confirm/debunk those statements on your own? How would you answer those questions to yourself?

So here is a place of doubt - When I am alone or at work i can generally contemplate, reflect and explore no self easily. When I have interactions with others very close to me, I notice this is where the strongest sense of I'ness happens-- like I paid for dinner so you should thank ME, I did something good/bad so a reaction to I is necessary, I want to be right or better or good, or recognized. yes it is all thought, but in the interest of full disclosure and desire to live in truth, I'm telling you.

Does any of that actually affect YOU? Does it matter? What needs to change? As always, please have a look at experience in this moment and answer from that perspective.

You are doing really great. I can see you are looking right at it. It is quite normal that at this point doubts, resistance, fear and any other protective conditionings come out and do their stuff. The key is not to buy into it and just have an honest look at what is really going on from direct experience. See if there is an “I” that is doing anything, being affected by something, experiencing something, etc…

Kind regards and keep looking :)
Milan

Thank you Milan, again, for being so on point with where "I am". lol. the utube helped me a great deal to unravel an idea of 'me' disappearing in order for clarity to happen. I spent my study/experience time mostly on this part today. I will continue to notice thoughts around all of that.

hat does the word I or me point to here and now

I & me points to nothing. no-thing I can find, not behind the name julie either. no personal self. although I use the words to communicate what julie is up to.

in direct experience can you find an I that experiences experience?

no. there is no I that is having an experience, or that causes anything to happen.
I know this is true when I look. I need to remember to look, all the time.

is there a self that breathes, etc.

no, breathing, living, moving all happen without self, without thought.

is there a chooser?

I don't know! I know the answer in truth is no, but I don't have that in my looking. I will question that and the rest of todays great questions and hopefully writing them tomorrow at the airport. I have to get to bed, its been a very active day.
deepest gratitude,
julie

Hi Julie,

I'll be very short today. I'm looking forward to read rest of your answers. I really feel you are looking right at it and your answers reflect that.

For the chooser part consider this: In direct experience what other proof beside thought, do you have that there is a chooser? Is there a chooser that can be identified or is there simply choosing happening?

Best regards
Milan

Hi Milan,
Sorry for the delay, I apparently lost everything I did at the airport yesterday somehow. Back to the computer now.
Have been 'practicing' not looking to mind for confirmation of anything and have felt much peace and expansiveness. Interaction with others is interesting.

Thank you so much for the clarification on choosing. I had a super 'aahhhh' then 'duh!' moment when you said it that way. I saw this kids movie recently about a cave family who needed to start migrating and the father wanted to stay in the cave where it was 'safe' even though he could see everything changing around him and a guide showed up to help walk them out. I can relate, lol. It seems logical that one blanket statement of 'there is no self' should cover everything, but I seem to need to look at every angle of everything to let go of the idea of self in that aspect. Maybe that is the difference between experiencing and thought.


anyhow, on the the questions:

Are YOU the thinker of thoughts? Can YOU choose a thought?

the thoughts just come on through. I am noticing the experience of thought coming and going, some strong some not. I have been looking at the experience of thoughts breezing by rather than the content and seeing that there is still knowing without the aid of thought loops. I have no idea where the topics of thought come from. I can't choose a thought, there is no I to choose. yesterday as I was typing this the first time, without any 'choosing an attitude', I laughed as they were announcing our imminent boarding of a plane that wasn't there yet, instead of being annoyed; and then watched myself knowing when to fold everything up, go to the bathroom and all of that to prepare to get on the plane without any question or thinking or resistance to the experience.

Does the body experience sensations and thought? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

the body seems to react with sensations -- heart pounds or flutters with intensity of fear or excitement, is calmly moving through its own processes by itself now as typing is happening. I don't know if the body is another thought label; It is something in reality, but it has 1 all inclusive name rather than a bucket full like sensor, digester, excreter, toucher, smeller, taster.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to look like, there is still a thought of 'perfection of knowing' upon seeing no separate self milling around. I have heard that once you see the truth you will never be able to un-see it. Also that there is clarity in all is happening just as it should. Is that ego driving the expectation or is it truth that will surface when seeing through has truly happened?

to debunk my own quote, I see the expectation / conditions of mind judging & questioning how experience should be rather than just experiencing it. I feel the longer I work with this stuff, answering your questions, the less question I feel. still wanting a definitive lightening moment, lol.

So here is a place of doubt - When I am alone or at work i can generally contemplate, reflect and explore no self easily. When I have interactions with others very close to me, I notice this is where the strongest sense of I'ness happens-- like I paid for dinner so you should thank ME, I did something good/bad so a reaction to I is necessary, I want to be right or better or good, or recognized. yes it is all thought, but in the interest of full disclosure and desire to live in truth, I'm telling you.

Does any of that actually affect YOU? Does it matter? What needs to change? As always, please have a look at experience in this moment and answer from that perspective.

I'm still trying to control experience through thought. no it doesn't actually affect me, or matter. there is no me to thank, who did anything, who didn't do anything? this makes me dizzy and stomach has all kinds of sensations of confusion. now that I'm back in the real work world I'll look to experience this rather than think.

thank you Milan!!!

Hi Julie,

Absolutely wonderful to read. Your answers are getting clearer and clearer. :)

Does the body experience sensations and thought? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

the body seems to react with sensations -- heart pounds or flutters with intensity of fear or excitement, is calmly moving through its own processes by itself now as typing is happening. I don't know if the body is another thought label; It is something in reality, but it has 1 all inclusive name rather than a bucket full like sensor, digester, excreter, toucher, smeller, taster.

Can you find anything else in reality besides sensing (hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting and feeling [tactile, kinesthetic]), thoughts and this sense of aliveness, being or presence?

A little exercise to explore sensing: For example if you close your eyes and pick any sound at all from the environment and just listen. Can you find where the sound ends and hearing begins? Can you find where hearing ends and you or hearer begins? Can you find any separation between what is heard, hearer and hearing? Could it be there is just hearing? Is hearing happening inside, outside or neither? Is body doing hearing? If yes, can that be experienced directly? What can be experienced directly?

If you feel like it you could similarly test also all other senses.

And from that perspective please, consider those questions again. Does the body experience sensations and thought? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?"

Kind regards
Milan

Hi Milan,

Does the body experience sensations and thought? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

How cow, I went completely at odds with my self, if I had one, lol. When listening to sounds, there is no difference between the hearing and the hearer, no place where it begins and ends; taste, unbelievably the same. So hearing is happening, tasting is happening, sensations are happening. I can't seem to get past the thought what if the body didn't have ears, or a tongue. taste and hearing are still happening? wow. never saw that coming. body was still in the cave.

So basically everything is happening with out need for/help with thought or body. No thinker of the thought, no sniffer of the smell. I am finally getting a semblance of experiencing what it means 'just because something happened doesn't mean someone did it'. awesome.

much gratitude,
julie

Hi Julie,

Great. Just for the review can you answer those questions from your experience now:

Is there a separate self in any way, in any form?
Do YOU control / do anything?
Can YOU choose?
Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
Is there an "I" that experiences experience?
Does Julie the person exist?
Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Best regards
Milan

Hi milan,
When I read the questions, the first answer is often yes, of course I do all that, snort, who else would do that for me; then when I go into actual looking none of it is there. I'm seeing the mind on auto pilot, and hoping that looking and experiencing will become more auto than mind at some point.

Is there a separate self in any way, in any form?

I cannot find a separate self outside of the mind's idea. There are no edges, boundaries or qualities in reality, anywhere.

Do YOU control / do anything?

experience is happening, awareness it happening. when the mind gets wind of 'something happening' it takes credit for making it happen. or reasons about why it did it this way. I is pretty much a control freak, but a fictional one.

Can YOU choose?

I can't choose, I thinks it can, but thoughts can't think of choose or make anything happen

Are YOU the thinker of thoughts?

no, thoughts are whizzing through, sometimes in a sequence, sometimes randomly. It does seem that I can choose the topics sometimes, but when tested it never works. So if I say lets think of the theme for the yoga class today, it is experience, awareness that has prompted direction & is moving into the class. mind is following along, or not, as the case may be.

Is there an "I" that experiences experience?

nope.

Does Julie the person exist?

only as a collection of memories/thoughts/preferences in mind, imagination. she is as real and unique as santa & wonder woman. how confusing & opening at the same time. still startled by this. seems that now that I'm not trying to obliterate or change what goes on in the mind or as julie the collection of thoughts, I like her much more.

how about all of these learn to love yourself books? no wonder they don't work. I probably still have several from years back, what a literal mind game that whole thing is.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

the only doubt I have is the same one, that I am keeping under exploration, the one that is waiting for a big bang & everything to change . I was telling my friend about this whole thing and found that wondering going on -- if you see through the illusion then why aren't you perfect & understand why all this experience is happening. separate self is just that (or not), this is the illusion that has been investigated. everything is the same, except I feel free, open and teary alot. is there other illusion to investigate? there must be lots!

Hi Julie,

Fantastic. :) About the »big bang« and waiting for change. There are several options. You can look deeper into that feeling “there should be a big bang, an aha moment, everything should change” and then “I will know and see”. What is that pattern if you ignore the content and look at direct experience? Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, tasting… How does it work? If you simply recognize that whatever pattern, whatever content, whatever thought, whatever perception is simply an experience. So all that is going on is simply experience experiencing. Period. As simple as that. So, what needs to change? Does anything need to change in order for you to be what you already are and has always been? What is perfection?

Kind regards
Milan

You can look deeper into that feeling “there should be a big bang, an aha moment, everything should change” and then “I will know and see”. If you simply recognize that whatever pattern, whatever content, whatever thought, whatever perception is simply an experience.

So all that is going on is simply experience experiencing. Period. As simple as that. So, what needs to change? Does anything need to change in order for you to be what you already are and has always been? What is perfection?

So all that is going on is simply experience experiencing. Period.

right. thanks so much for your words, these reminders are vey helpful. experience is doing its own thing, and it always has. the only thing that has changed is my perception shifted from illusion to experience. no, nothing else needs to change. I recognized a giant cop out behind the whole 'this should happen' thing, behind it there was a feeling of greater responsibility that 'I' didn't want to take on, also that 'I' am a fraud. So with that bunch of crap thinking, I went into experience and saw nothing in reality. Although, ironically, 'I' is a fraud.

What is perfection?

Just what is happening. either everything is in perfection or there isn't one.

Hi Julie,

Great. :) Is there anything else that is still unclear or can I ask you final questions?

Kind regards
Milan

let do the final questions and see what happens!
thanks
julie

Hi Julie,

Here are the final question. Take as much time as you need.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best regards
Milan